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Summing Box Help! I have an interesting result between some summing boxes!
Old 8th February 2009
  #1
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Summing Box Help! I have an interesting result between some summing boxes!

Hi!

I am checking different summing boxes...so in order to check the sound of them I am using same mix with same output assignment and panning.

So what I do is this to have same level gong back to Pro Tools:

Send a Tone Generator (1Hhz) to the Summing Box adjust the output of the summing boxes to send to Pro Tools the same level ...for recording the mix.... and for later comparisons ( calibrating the recording level back to PT with Paz Meter for Level Checking)

Now after listening the mixes one of the summing boxes Deliver the Mix with a higher level..maybe be like 3 db louder...the wave graphic and the perceived level is higher.

Why? what that means?
Old 8th February 2009
  #2
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
Hi!

I am checking different summing boxes...so in order to check the sound of them I am using same mix with same output assignment and panning.

So what I do is this to have same level gong back to Pro Tools:

Send a Tone Generator (1Hhz) to the Summing Box adjust the output of the summing boxes to send to Pro Tools the same level ...for recording the mix.... and for later comparisons ( calibrating the recording level back to PT with Paz Meter for Level Checking)

Now after listening the mixes one of the summing boxes Deliver the Mix with a higher level..maybe be like 3 db louder...the wave graphic and the perceived level is higher.

Why? what that means?
Not really sure what your question is?

I understand what you are saying, and I think it has to do with distortion density and RMS level.

Its also about the AMPLIFIER your pitting up against something that adds virtually nothing to the party [DAW summing engine]. The Gain structure is completely different inside the DAW than it is outside the DAW and when you involve another AD conversion with a reference calibration and headroom spec, you're playing a different sport than ITB mixing. Its all about your Gain Scaling and Gain Staging for your analog and digital equipment.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell ➑️
Not really sure what your question is?

I understand what you are saying, and I think it has to do with distortion density and RMS level.

Its also about the AMPLIFIER your pitting up against something that adds virtually nothing to the party [DAW summing engine]. The Gain structure is completely different inside the DAW than it is outside the DAW and when you involve another AD conversion with a reference calibration and headroom spec, you're playing a different sport than ITB mixing. Its all about your Gain Scaling and Gain Staging for your analog and digital equipment.
Basically what I am trying to say that the comparison is not against the ITB mIX.

The Question is abouT and between other summing boxes.

There are 3 summing boxes...and one delivers a louder mix even if all of them received the tone at equal level back to the DAW.

Why is that and what that means?
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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indie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Which brand summing unit is perceived louder?
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Not only perceived louder in the wave graphic look louder too!
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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Kronos147's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I would think you need to calibrate at several frequencies, like 100hz, 1k and 10k instead of just 1k. I'll bet the box in question is then harder to calibrate i.e. does not pass signal evenly throughout the harmonics.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
But sounds great!!
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
Why is that and what that means?
Why don't you give up some more info about what devices your using?

We can only help answer your questions when you state the facts.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Neve 8816 and dangerous 2 bus.

Checked both with different tones at 0db... returning the tones of both Summing Boxes at the same level back to the DAW.

Then when I compared the mixes the Dangeous Graphic Wave looks louder and even peaks at 3.5 dB louder level to the louder level of the Neve Peak ..at the same spot!! I checked this many times already...because seems crazy! printed many mixes...at different output level...same result.

So I lowered the Volume of the D2B mix like 3.5 db to be equal in volume and perceived volume to the neve 8816.... then even the graphic wave looked more similrar....

So whay is that??
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
Neve 8816 and dangerous 2 bus.

Checked both with different tones at 0db... returning the tones of both Summing Boxes at the same level back to the DAW.

Then when I compared the mixes the Dangeous Graphic Wave looks louder and even peaks at 3.5 dB louder level to the louder level of the Neve Peak ..at the same spot!! I checked this many times already...because seems crazy! printed many mixes...at different output level...same result.

So I lowered the Volume of the D2B mix like 3.5 db to be equal in volume and perceived volume to the neve 8816.... then even the graphic wave looked more similrar....

So whay is that??
Because they are completely different circuits. The 8816 has way more going on inside the box than the Dangerous does.

Even if you level match them, it says nothing about how your program will react through the amplifiers in each box.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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myrtlebacker's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
So whay is that??
My guesses a) you screwed up somewhere b) one of the units is broken.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
So whay is that??
Are you using the 1/4 Unbalanced Monitor Outputs of the 8816, instead of the transformer, +4 balanced output via the DB25 connector? My guess is that's where you're going wrong with your test.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell ➑️
Are you using the 1/4 Unbalanced Monitor Outputs of the 8816, instead of the transformer, +4 balanced output via the DB25 connector? My guess is that's where you're going wrong with your test.
Or maybe he's got a few of the +6's punched in on the D2B?

Unlikely possibility, I know... but it could happen. IOW, if he's got a few of them punched in (like the ones handling the low-end busses, for example), then his 1k tone might match the Neve's output, but when he runs the full mix through each, the D2B's overall level could indeed be hotter.

I know, I know, not likely to be the case - but it bears mentioning, just in case it was overlooked.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDawg ➑️
Or maybe he's got a few of the +6's punched in on the D2B?

Unlikely possibility, I know... but it could happen. IOW, if he's got a few of them punched in (like the ones handling the low-end busses, for example), then his 1k tone might match the Neve's output, but when he runs the full mix through each, the D2B's overall level could indeed be hotter.

I know, I know, not likely to be the case - but it bears mentioning, just in case it was overlooked.
you are right but not pushed buttons! i checked that ..and did the test so many times....i know..it is weird

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell ➑️
Are you using the 1/4 Unbalanced Monitor Outputs of the 8816, instead of the transformer, +4 balanced output via the DB25 connector? My guess is that's where you're going wrong with your test.
All balanced,,,

will do the test again with fresh head!!!! will report!
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak7 ➑️
will do the test again with fresh head!!!! will report!

Are you using the stereo-field adjustment on the Neve, by any chance? That'd make a difference, too - Again, just throwing out guesses here.

I can see two diferent summing boxes being off by little bit from each other for any (or even MANY) reasons using just a 1k sine wave as a calibration reference, but the results you're getting seem to be a fairly significant difference.

Are you running 16 tracks of that same (cloned) sine wave into each summing mixer in the exact same configuration/output for each track?
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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zak7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDawg ➑️
Are you using the stereo-field adjustment on the Neve, by any chance? That'd make a difference, too - Again, just throwing out guesses here.

I can see two diferent summing boxes being off by little bit from each other for any (or even MANY) reasons using just a 1k sine wave as a calibration reference, but the results you're getting seem to be a fairly significant difference.

Are you running 16 tracks of that same (cloned) sine wave into each summing mixer in the exact same configuration/output for each track?
You are totally right! ....I did other comparisons and the diferences are small in terms of volume...I also check other tones and seems the same...
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Something to do with panning law perhaps?
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