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Should I Set Flat Amp Settings and EQ the Guitar after for tone?
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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GearHunter's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
The man or woman shelling out the gold, makes the rules.
True if they're hiring you to be a straight recordist.

If they are paying you to PRODUCE, then they pay you to make musical decisions and all that implies. That is why they hire you, because that is your job and role, and you are much better at it than they are. When I hire a guy to fix my car, once price is negotiated, I don't tell him how to do it.
Old 7th February 2009
  #32
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awakened's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho ➡️
Or should I let the guitarist set their tone and eq afterward?
also, i dont think i'd let the guitarist set their tone. guitar players dont understand what you need going into your DAW, they just know what they like the sound of (without hearing it directly through the mic). if i let all of the guitarists coming through here set their tone, they'd scoop the mids out. gross.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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cavern's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho ➡️
Ok right, but Amp EQ is EQ, DAW EQ is EQ... I am not a guitarist, so I was thinking logically- With the amp settings I can EQ before recording, or I can EQ after recording. So, why not use EQ afterwards so that its not permanent. It's a given that different EQ's sound different but I didn't realize that there are other reasons to get the tone right first (such as having the amp rattle or the highs break up just right, in a way that maybe a non-amp EQ might not do properly.

So, I just needed the clarification. Thanks all.
i would think that you could do it that way too and in some cases, it might even be best.there are no rules as you know.
but i have my e.q.'s set in my pedals, my amp and the tone controls on either my tele or strat before it hit's the tube reverb or tremolo if im using those in a song and i find if i start equing that to much after i record, it changes the original tone(vibe) to much(not to mention that i'd play different) so i just use post e.q. to just nudge it out of the bass/bassdrum's way.usually a slight hi-pass. for me, it's not so much about pre or post e.q. it's about getting that amp to sound just right and then recording that sound.
and you mentioned the amp rattle. hopefully it doesn't or .heh
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awakened ➡️
also, i dont think i'd let the guitarist set their tone. guitar players dont understand what you need going into your DAW, they just know what they like the sound of (without hearing it directly through the mic). if i let all of the guitarists coming through here set their tone, they'd scoop the mids out. gross.
Right, but the point is, if you adjust Mr. Mid-scooper's tone, you do it in the amp, not the console, yes?
Old 7th February 2009
  #35
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huarez's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This sounds weird to me. Don´t do that. The opposite is right. Check the sound of the recording and dial in the sound at the Amp, but not before you trie to adjust by miocrophone Position.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHunter ➡️
True if they're hiring you to be a straight recordist.

If they are paying you to PRODUCE, then they pay you to make musical decisions and all that implies. That is why they hire you, because that is your job and role, and you are much better at it than they are. When I hire a guy to fix my car, once price is negotiated, I don't tell him how to do it.
Of course. But at the end of the day, you've got to have made the customer happy. And if you haven't... the relationship may be abruptly terminated.

So, you may be hired because of your presumed expertise in calling the shots on a moment to moment basis, but, ultimately, the one paying the bills is going to be the one with ultimate power, whether he/she decides to exercise it, or not.


FWIW, early in my game I was brought on board to produce a project for a young band. Money was tight but I found a guy with a nice little project studio in the ground floor of his duplex. He had a good rep and a small set of well-chosen gear, which was the initial appeal. But as we worked, it became clear that he was not just a fine engineer, he was an excellent producer, as well.

If I'd been jealously guarding my turf, I could have kept him in the box (I'm sure he would have been happy to sit on his hands and just do what I told him)... but that would have undercut the project and I wisely elected to back off and let the guy do his thing, since he not only knew his little studio and gear very well but also had some very good ideas about keeping things running efficiently and getting the most out of our time. I learned a lot.

The project turned out better than any of us had probably expected, got a fair amount of airplay in some local markets and everyone was relatively happy. (The indie label fraudulently stiffed everyone [I worked for the jerks one more time while I was waiting to get paid on the first thing -- I never got paid on any of it -- but the label owner admitted that he'd actually reordered a bunch of runs and sales had gone up to the 25,000+ range, which was well over the point he was supposed to be paying out at] -- label stiffs band -- well, what else is new? At least we got the glory. Of course, the engineer/studio, wisely, was charging the band on a pay as you go basis, and got paid.) Later, the engineer won a Grammy on a project for a well-known guitar band...
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I would have thought that adjusting the EQ on the amp would change the way that the post-EQ valve stages of the amp distort.
Different amps have the tone stack in different places which contributes to their characteristic sound - Marshall's are generally at the end of the preamp and post-distortion, Fender's are generally before the second triode stage and so pre-distortion.

If you don't get THAT right on the amp while recording then you've got an uphill struggle to fix it with EQ afterwards.

K.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by huarez ➡️
This sounds weird to me. Don´t do that. The opposite is right. Check the sound of the recording and dial in the sound at the Amp, but not before you trie to adjust by miocrophone Position.
No, start with the amp tone first. You should already know exactly where to put the mic. I do.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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PureAudiouk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
100% for getting the guitar how you like it in the room. Don't believe what the magazines tell you about great guitar sounds..

Great Guitar + great amp played by great guitarist = great guitar take..

also, reverbs (FX ones.. not the room reverb you might add after) sound much sweeter if they go through the amp with the original sound.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Why not let the guitarist have whatever tone he wants, get a dry signal at the same time, and reamp later? He can remain "inspired" or whatever based on his tone, your job is made easier because you can pick a tone as close as possible to his while still fitting in the mix... everybody wins.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureAudiouk ➡️
100% for getting the guitar how you like it in the room. Don't believe what the magazines tell you about great guitar sounds..

Great Guitar + great amp played by great guitarist = great guitar take..

also, reverbs (FX ones.. not the room reverb you might add after) sound much sweeter if they go through the amp with the original sound.
Ditto! I call it "Reverb by Leo!" heh
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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jonsays's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm running a very simple (Duet to Mac) setup, and prefer just getting the tone before the take. Let the tubes warm up, let the player warm up on the guitar (cold fingers in Michigan are deadly...), adjust the levels on amp and pedals (I choose the poor-man method of using pedals instead of plug-ins), and I usually place the mic directly up to the center of the amp grill. Then I just adjust for the mix.

Jon
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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GearHunter's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I usually place the mic directly up to the center of the amp grill
Make sure the mic is not pointing at the dead-center of the speaker. You need to mic the flange of the speaker, a couple inches left/right/above/below the center. Not much sound comes from the center, and what does isn't usually very good.
Old 7th February 2009
  #44
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
my advice: no because your cab will react in a different manner with flat EQ than it might if you dial stuff in.

get as close as you can with the amp, then fine tune later
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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analogtodd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
How is this even being discussed?

Guitar player gets tone he/she wants, and you record it.

I almost got my ass kicked by an old timer once because I turned his reverb on his amp down one notch. I told him it would "sit in the track better" He told me to **** off, he was right....

Now if someone has crappy tone, I'm all for helping them out, but if it sounds good, you hit record.

Talking about trying make an amplifier "flat" is just stupid BS, its either good tone or it ain't.... no middle ground kids
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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huarez's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHunter ➡️
No, start with the amp tone first. You should already know exactly where to put the mic. I do.
I do so too. Thats for fine adjustments. The common process by unexperienced players(and not only those) is to dial in a sound while the speakers blow at their knees.
The sound should dialed in with the ear at the position where the mic will be placed.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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awakened's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHunter ➡️
Right, but the point is, if you adjust Mr. Mid-scooper's tone, you do it in the amp, not the console, yes?

thats what i'm saying. who knows how to eq the amp better for recording? the player or the engineer?

unless the player is an engineer, i think we know the answer.


i record mostly hardcore or hard rock. too many times i get guitarists in that have their treble set to 8 or 9, and the bass on 7 or 8. woah. they may throw a little fit as i change their "beautiful tone," but i then explain to them that getting the amp sound in recording is much different than what they think sounds good in a live situation.

100% of the time, they are waaay more than happy with the finished product.


for distorted guitars, this should help

Slipperman's Guide
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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kafka's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkEcho ➡️
Ok right, but Amp EQ is EQ, DAW EQ is EQ... I am not a guitarist, so I was thinking logically- With the amp settings I can EQ before recording, or I can EQ after recording. So, why not use EQ afterwards so that its not permanent. It's a given that different EQ's sound different but I didn't realize that there are other reasons to get the tone right first (such as having the amp rattle or the highs break up just right, in a way that maybe a non-amp EQ might not do properly.

So, I just needed the clarification. Thanks all.
Tone controls are not EQ. To an engineer I'm sure they sound like they're similar, but they're really not. They're part of the instrument. You can't EQ their contribution back in the same way you can't EQ dead strings back to life, or EQ a neck pickup to sound like a bridge pickup.

If you really feel the need to throw out their sound completely, a more reasonable approach would be to DI the guitar and re-amp later, and let them have whatever they want in the studio. But the real answer is to get the right sound in the first place and then record it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy ➡️
Why not let the guitarist have whatever tone he wants, get a dry signal at the same time, and reamp later? He can remain "inspired" or whatever based on his tone, your job is made easier because you can pick a tone as close as possible to his while still fitting in the mix... everybody wins.
+½. I'd find it pretty distracting if some engineer thought they were going to tell me how to set up my amp. Maybe there are some kids who need help, but nobody touches my stuff. I've also never been happy with anything I tried to re-amp later, in the same way I can't play through an amp sim. I play the amp as much as I play the guitar. Reamping may work for someone, but it ain't me.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
The amp is part of the instrument! Take away the amp and you got dick (spot the reference). Record your sound!!!! And your dynamics.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonixx ➡️
ha, stating out with a definition and then stating let's not battle over semantics.
Dude, if you can't play nice, then get out of my thread. Everyone else participating here understood me loud and clear.

I'm not here for a pissing match, I'm here to learn.

As for everyone else- thanks very much for the help.
I have a better idea now why the tone before recording is more important. The amp is part of the instrument, it influences and inspires the player, and the tone knobs affect more than the frequency response of the sound. It all makes perfect sense- thanks for enlightening me.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Tone controls are not EQ. To an engineer I'm sure they sound like they're similar, but they're really not. They're part of the instrument. You can't EQ their contribution back in the same way you can't EQ dead strings back to life, or EQ a neck pickup to sound like a bridge pickup.
They definitely are EQ, which is why, if you use them, you might not have to use any EQ in the mix, because you are just doing it elsewhere. It's very different in the sense that you are now driving the EQ'd signal through the chain, instead of EQ'ing it after driving it through the chain. But it's still EQ nonetheless, by any definition I can think of. It's adjusting the frequency balance of the signal. From the mix perspective you are just making a decision to do it pre or post-storage.
Old 14th May 2014 | Show parent
  #52
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➡️
I would have thought that adjusting the EQ on the amp would change the way that the post-EQ valve stages of the amp distort.
Different amps have the tone stack in different places which contributes to their characteristic sound - Marshall's are generally at the end of the preamp and post-distortion, Fender's are generally before the second triode stage and so pre-distortion.

If you don't get THAT right on the amp while recording then you've got an uphill struggle to fix it with EQ afterwards.

K.
Old thread but I just wanted to point this out in case anybody comes across it in the future. This is a HUGE factor when it comes to dialing in a good sound at the amp, and the fact that only one person here has even commented on it is a great example of why some of the more egotistical engineers here would do well to actually listen to musicians every now and then.

In short, amplifier (and pedal) tone controls are very different from console EQ because of the way they interact with the various gain stages throughout the signal chain.

Let's take the most basic example imaginable and consider a simple amplifier with no tone controls at all - only a volume knob. Even without external tone controls, the tone and overdrive characteristics of this amp will be determined in large part by the values of various capacitors and resistors within the amplifier circuit itself. These component choices act essentially as mini EQ circuits before and after each gain stage, and modifying them can have a great effect on the tonality and response of the amp. In general the approach is usually to cut low end before (and between) clipping stages to prevent muddiness and to roll off high end afterward to remove fizz. However the exact degree to which this is done in various locations throughout the circuit, along with the amount of clipping coming from each gain stage, can make the difference between a great sounding amp and a mediocre one.

When it comes to external tone controls on the amplifier, as well as any gain and tone-shaping pedals used in front of it, the same principles hold true. The guitarist shapes his tone by varying the amount of gain at different stages in the signal path and the EQ before and after each stage (to the extent the equipment provides that capability). So depending on the particular amplifier being used and where the clipping is coming from (pedal, preamp, and/or power amp), those tone controls on the amp can have very different effects. Adjusting the controls on a Soldano with five preamp gain stages and a high-headroom power section is going to give you very different results than adjusting those on a cranked Fender Deluxe.

And unless you know what that difference is and how it will affect not only the frequency response but the overdrive characteristics, tightness, transient response, and feel of the amp, you're better off either sticking to the EQ on your console, or (God forbid) actually working with the musician to get an appropriate sound rather than assuming you know how his equipment works when obviously many of you do not.
Old 14th May 2014 | Show parent
  #53
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimS ➡️
Old thread but I just wanted to point this out in case anybody comes across it in the future. This is a HUGE factor when it comes to dialing in a good sound at the amp, and the fact that only one person here has even commented on it is a great example of why some of the more egotistical engineers here would do well to actually listen to musicians every now and then.

In short, amplifier (and pedal) tone controls are very different from console EQ because of the way they interact with the various gain stages throughout the signal chain.

Let's take the most basic example imaginable and consider a simple amplifier with no tone controls at all - only a volume knob. Even without external tone controls, the tone and overdrive characteristics of this amp will be determined in large part by the values of various capacitors and resistors within the amplifier circuit itself. These component choices act essentially as mini EQ circuits before and after each gain stage, and modifying them can have a great effect on the tonality and response of the amp. In general the approach is usually to cut low end before (and between) clipping stages to prevent muddiness and to roll off high end afterward to remove fizz. However the exact degree to which this is done in various locations throughout the circuit, along with the amount of clipping coming from each gain stage, can make the difference between a great sounding amp and a mediocre one.

When it comes to external tone controls on the amplifier, as well as any gain and tone-shaping pedals used in front of it, the same principles hold true. The guitarist shapes his tone by varying the amount of gain at different stages in the signal path and the EQ before and after each stage (to the extent the equipment provides that capability). So depending on the particular amplifier being used and where the clipping is coming from (pedal, preamp, and/or power amp), those tone controls on the amp can have very different effects. Adjusting the controls on a Soldano with five preamp gain stages and a high-headroom power section is going to give you very different results than adjusting those on a cranked Fender Deluxe.

And unless you know what that difference is and how it will affect not only the frequency response but the overdrive characteristics, tightness, transient response, and feel of the amp, you're better off either sticking to the EQ on your console, or (God forbid) actually working with the musician to get an appropriate sound rather than assuming you know how his equipment works when obviously many of you do not.
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