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"go to" LD condensers for electric guitar
Old 5th February 2009
  #1
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Unknown soldier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"go to" LD condensers for electric guitar

Recently I'm been using my AT 4050 to mic a guitar cab, about 2 feet back, and I'm liking the the depth and clarity I get over close micing with the 57 and 421. What condensers are no brainers for electric guitars?

And if any can tell me how you close mic a guitar cab and get decent depth on your tracks let me know....even when using short delays and reverb, it's just not the same thing!
Old 5th February 2009
  #2
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BradM's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have had good luck in the past using a Soundelux U195. Or even the Studio Projects B1 of all things. I must admit that I mostly opt for ribbons or dynamics...R121 and e609 being my faves. I'm curious to hear what others have been using in the way of condensers. Isn't one of the Gefell models supposed to be really nice?

Brad
Old 5th February 2009
  #3
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gwailoh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
Recently I'm been using my AT 4050 to mic a guitar cab, about 2 feet back, and I'm liking the the depth and clarity I get over close micing with the 57 and 421. What condensers are no brainers for electric guitars?

And if any can tell me how you close mic a guitar cab and get decent depth on your tracks let me know....even when using short delays and reverb, it's just not the same thing!
Over the years have liked U87, 414eb, 414B-ULS, and recently Beyer MC840 on cabs. Used to close mic, lately am doing it like you, a couple of feet back for a result which seems more faithful to the amp sound in the room.

Re depth. Usually I would close mic a cab specifically to get an "in your face", that is, depthless result. If you like the way your room sounds, you might try recording depth by adding a second mic on the rear of the cab, experimenting with distance. Try putting the amp in the middle of the room, the main mic a couple of feet in front, and the rear mic six feet back. Experiment with moving the second mic closer to or farther from the amp, to see what it does to the sense of distance. (Monitor in mono to be sure about phase.) Stuff like that. Dunno that you'll be happy with this technique in a less-than-happy room, though.

Hope something in here helps!
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Head
 
Rev_Mercury's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
My 2 favs are the AKG C214, and the Shure KSM27 as far as LDC's go. I usually always use a 57 paired with one of the above mentioned mics and the results are usually stellar.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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Beyersound's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
AT 4047
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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engmix's Avatar
87 - classic tone.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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Suspects's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
LD Condensors on guitar

Used to get good results with a Lawson L47MP tube about a foot or two back from the cabinet. Then I got my Royers......

Dave/Suspect
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I rarely reach for condensers on guitar cabs, but have used the CAD M9 and VX2 at times with great success. The AT4047 is always a good reach for things that you need a condenser like response without that "tizzy" in-ear annoying buzz that condensers too often exaggerate.

War
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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Unknown soldier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
somewhat off topic - I'd like to combine a 57 with the AT4050, but always have phase issues in my room, so what about phase issues with reamping? Record one track close up, then spit it back out through the amp to record the condenser backed off the cab.

Anyone done this and it works well? Tell me before I get a reamp!
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Phase differences might benefit the "size" of the sound, but it depends on the phase relationship and how high you push both faders relative to each other in volume. In other words, if you only mix a tad of the condenser sound in with the original SM57 track, it might not cause any noticeable "issues" even if they are not time / phase aligned.

Experimentation rules. You may find it better not to line them up in the DAW, which can just be boring sometimes...!

I would only buy a Reamp-ing device if you like being able to make decisions later about the amp choice. Getting the mic sound right during the original take should be of utmost importance if that amp and room is giving you what you want.

War

FWIW, a figure 8 ribbon properly distanced from the amp and balanced with the room sound might be an easier choice for you, considering the back picks up just like the front (reverse phase though). I am typically a one mic on a guitar cab guy myself...
Old 5th February 2009
  #11
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cavern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
Recently I'm been using my AT 4050 to mic a guitar cab, about 2 feet back, and I'm liking the the depth and clarity I get over close micing with the 57 and 421. What condensers are no brainers for electric guitars?

And if any can tell me how you close mic a guitar cab and get decent depth on your tracks let me know....even when using short delays and reverb, it's just not the same thing!
i use an sm7 in the grill and an at 4033 3 feet back on a deluxe reverb and i wouldn't change a thing. great tone dirty and clean.
try the at 4050 and your sm 57 in the grill, see if you like it.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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Unknown soldier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern ➑️
i use an sm7 in the grill and an at 4033 3 feet back on a deluxe reverb and i wouldn't change a thing. great tone dirty and clean.
try the at 4050 and your sm 57 in the grill, see if you like it.
I have done this, but find there are phase problems. I like the sound of the condenser tracks, and want it to be prominent in the mix, but mixing it in too much just gives me hollow sounds that suck!

How do you mix the two tracks together?
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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cavern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
I have done this, but find there are phase problems. I like the sound of the condenser tracks, and want it to be prominent in the mix, but mixing it in too much just gives me hollow sounds that suck!

How do you mix the two tracks together?
what i do for my style of music is i hi pass the sm7 track a bit to get it away fron the bass/bassdrum when i mix it and use it panned dead center for the main track.
then i duplicate the 4033 track, i take one track and knock everything around below 400 out of it which makes it very thin, pan it 10 oclock and use it about 20%.
the other 4033 track, i high pass about below 100, give it a mid bump and use that about 20% panned 2 oclock.
i pan the bass guitar slightly left towards the thin track.11.30 ish. as this is important to my balance.
i put all three in a group track, brind up the group track volume and then fiddle some more with the 3 seperate tracks till i get kind of a floating wall of guitar that stays out of the way of the bass/bassdrum. i then cut a small v in the e.q. on the group track where the vocals will be boosted with the equivalent v.

for lead tracks, i use a double delay effect on the group track.

i gotta say though it depends largely on what kind of music your recording and who's playing that guitar. that works well for me.

the hollow sound your getting might be a result of your room too.

what i do as you can see in my avatar is i have moving blankets along this long wall and behind the amp and i use a carpeted divider on the other side that's about 8 feet long at an angle and put the 4033 in there.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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Avening's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years


Neumann U89. A lot more rugged than the U87, can handle a lot more dB, and is incredibly detailed even at high SPL. Used it once on a Matchless combo, and now refuse to use anything else. Mesa, Marshall, Fender, Orange ... sounds fantastic and warm on just about anything.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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cavern's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avening ➑️


Neumann U89. A lot more rugged than the U87, can handle a lot more dB, and is incredibly detailed even at high SPL. Used it once on a Matchless combo, and now refuse to use anything else. Mesa, Marshall, Fender, Orange ... sounds fantastic and warm on just about anything.
is that a cement driveway that u89 is lying on...heh
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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DeepSpace's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavern ➑️
is that a cement driveway that u89 is lying on...heh
Regardless, it surely doesn't look like a "clean and dust-free environment".

Whatever condition that u89 was in before the photo was taken, I guess its diaphragm might be due for professional cleaning about now.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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gwailoh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
I have done this, but find there are phase problems. I like the sound of the condenser tracks, and want it to be prominent in the mix, but mixing it in too much just gives me hollow sounds that suck!

How do you mix the two tracks together?
Monitor in *mono*, carefully nudge one mic or the other until they sound good together. Often it only needs an eighth of an inch. Listening in mono is important. Once the mics are in phase, blend them in whatever amount sounds good to you.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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lakeshorephatty's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
I have done this, but find there are phase problems. I like the sound of the condenser tracks, and want it to be prominent in the mix, but mixing it in too much just gives me hollow sounds that suck!

How do you mix the two tracks together?
Little labs IBP at the time, or during the mix.

I like the U87 and U47 (in my case CM7-GT).

I typically like that condenser sound. Used to put up a dynamic as a backup but often don't anymore : )

Russell
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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popmann's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I've gotten some killer clean tones with my 4033...

U87, Innertube87, U67, M149, Sputnik...all did pretty well. Actually, I seem to remember that was the one cool sound I got out of the AK47 I eval'd, too.

But...57/121 or 421/121 is about all I ever use anymore. Those combos, cut to seperate tracks always seem to satisfy come mix time.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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Unknown soldier's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwailoh ➑️
Monitor in *mono*, carefully nudge one mic or the other until they sound good together. Often it only needs an eighth of an inch. Listening in mono is important. Once the mics are in phase, blend them in whatever amount sounds good to you.
Yeah, I've done that and it seems to work..somewhat. So how can test to see if two tracks are in phase? Plug in? Do you WANT them to be completely in phase, or is it depending on tastes?
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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John Suitcase's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
Yeah, I've done that and it seems to work..somewhat. So how can test to see if two tracks are in phase? Plug in? Do you WANT them to be completely in phase, or is it depending on tastes?
Two mics on the same source will never be completely in phase. When people say something is in or out of phase, they mean that the bottom end portion of the spectrum is working or disappearing. It'll be bumper or cut to varying degrees depending on the relative position of the mics (and any phase rotation introduced by using different preamps, etc.) You just flip polarity, move the mics, try something like the IBP, or delay one signal by a very small amount, until the bottom sounds solid. Or if you want it to sound scooped or thin, then you go with that.

Personally, I use two mics on guitar cabs all the time, but there's no system to it. I like 57s, I'll use the e609, the e604, Oktava MK219, GT44 tube is good on vintage combos, etc. My basic rule of thumb is to use two different mics on the cab, then if I do another guitar, use two different mics on that. Then, I'd blend, delay, pan and eq to get the sound I want.

As far as how far back, I like to start in pretty close, then listen to the recorded track very clsoely for any high frequency distortion that shouldn't be there. Move the mic back 'til that goes away. Usually about 1 ft back.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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gwailoh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown soldier ➑️
Yeah, I've done that and it seems to work..somewhat. So how can test to see if two tracks are in phase? Plug in? Do you WANT them to be completely in phase, or is it depending on tastes?
I don't think that two mics are ever completely, perfectly in phase. I believe that what you're getting with two mics on a single mono source like a cab is constructive comb filtering. (Not an expert, but, I believe this is right.) The goal is to make the source sound - well, the way you want it to, I guess. For me, it would be, fuller, bigger, fatter. If two mics together are making the source sound thinner or smaller, I'd move them until they sound right, or give up on using two mics together and make one sound good. IMO, the best tool is your ears. You'll nail it with practice I'm sure.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakeshorephatty ➑️
I like the U87 and U47 (in my case CM7-GT).
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
quantumpsych's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev_Mercury ➑️
My 2 favs are the AKG C214, and the Shure KSM27 as far as LDC's go. I usually always use a 57 paired with one of the above mentioned mics and the results are usually stellar.
+1 KSM27!!! i use it about 4ft back and off axis by a foot so i'm basically pointing it down towards the cab, with a 57 by the cone. i monitor in mono to make sure the phase is not canceling anything(if that's the right way to describe it). really, i'm just looking for a mono signal that sounds like the cab does in the room. if you take these two and seperate them by at least 10 degrees in the mix, you can get MASSIVE sounding results.

been looking into getting a U87 with the innertube mod!
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Richard Salino's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I really like the midrange of my KSM 44 on distorted guitars. It cuts through nicely and takes EQ relatively well. Lately I've been using that with an R-122 and they seem to play well together.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I've gotten good results with a Soundelux E47c (K47 capsule/EF14?) for a brighter sound or a Gefell UM900 (original Neuman M7 capsule) for a balanced full range tone or an AK47 for a slightly 'darker' or 'softer' sound .... (just very subtle degrees of separation)

But my mostly treated room is not so great sounding (to my ears - it ain't abbey road or even the local small stone church) so I stay with an R121 and SM57/Beyer M88 combo ...

Michael V

Tassie
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Addict
 
nikodemos's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Neumann TLM 193....thumbsup


...allthough i love the U87 on e.guitars.....this one is better (to my taste) and ofcourse cheaper!!!......

I love it coupled with a sm57 in a 2x12" cabinet espesially for hard overdriven tones....you can get pretty close to the cone of a screaming 12" speaker, and it'll handle it pretty easy.....lots of low midrange and not as edgy on the upper mid as the 87......try it if you have the chance....IMO very underestimated mic
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
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camerondye's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Out of my mics, a TLM-103 has been the goto condensor that I own. I just got a Peluso 2247se and I'm not sure it will beat it for electric guitar, but will try it later. I know the 103 gets flamed, but in the right situations I really love it.
cam
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #30
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Avening's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
For those of you talking about phase, a very simple way of phase-aligning (and I use the term loosely) is this:

Patch one of your outs on your DAW interface to a DI to step the signal, and then plug it into the input of your amp. Create a track in whatever software your using, set the output to the corresponding out you've patched, then bring up a signal generator and set it to pink noise. Turn up the clean gain on your amp until you hear the pink noise. Record arm your tracks.

With this, you can now align the phase of multiple mics (back and fourth relative to each other) and also move the mic around the cone of the speaker to hear the inherent qualities of your mic placement (on axis / off axis). You will be able to hear proximity effect, the timbre of the mic, and forecast any problems or issues you might have relative to mic placement. This will give you a great idea of the overall sound you will create. Once things are phase aligned and positioned, dismantle the chain, plug in your GTR and set your tone. Fine tune if necessary.

I'm usually a 4 mic kinda guy on a big GTR tone, with multiple heads and cabs, so phase aligning becomes a must. You can play around after the fact as much as you want, but the better you can get the sound at the source, the better off you're going to be.

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