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EQ Ducking Technique
Old 5th February 2009
  #1
Gear Nut
 
eclectic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
EQ Ducking Technique

Is anyone aware of a way to take two tracks or busses, say guitar and voxs, and have the guitars duck the eq form of the vocals when they're in... kind like side-chaining but not really, more technical. This would be intelligent in the fact that as the frequency curve changed on the one track, so would the compensating material on the other track. Ex. Voxs kick in... heavy in the 2K range (3 dB), guitars duck 3dB in the same range.
Old 5th February 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclectic ➑️
Is anyone aware of a way to take two tracks or busses, say guitar and voxs, and have the guitars duck the eq form of the vocals when they're in... kind like side-chaining but not really, more technical. This would be intelligent in the fact that as the frequency curve changed on the one track, so would the compensating material on the other track. Ex. Voxs kick in... heavy in the 2K range (3 dB), guitars duck 3dB in the same range.

Could you side chain a vocal into a multiband comp across a guitar set to dip at 2K when triggered?
Old 5th February 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 
FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
From what I've seen, you need to do two things.

Duplicate the track that will trigger the compressor and boost the frequency range that you want as that trigger, and/or cut all the other frequencies, then feed that signal into the sidechain of a multiband compressor set to whichever frequencies you want taken out of the target track.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just use the vocal as a key input on a Drawmer DS201 set to duck, and eq the send.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Or just automate the master bypass or certain frequency bypass buttons on the EQ...

I do this all the time.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Nut
 
eclectic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for all the ideas. I use sidechaining all the time and it can be the right trick but with today's technology, I'm sure there is a way (maybe not yet pursued) to capture the dynamic EQ curve of a track and then fit a corresponding EQ on another track to be the polar opposite. Like two pieces of a puzzle. More than just dipping an octave at 2K when the vocal hits but taking the 20-20000 picture and reshaping the corresponding track to fit like a glove.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclectic ➑️
Thanks for all the ideas. I use sidechaining all the time and it can be the right trick but with today's technology, I'm sure there is a way (maybe not yet pursued) to capture the dynamic EQ curve of a track and then fit a corresponding EQ on another track to be the polar opposite. Like two pieces of a puzzle. More than just dipping an octave at 2K when the vocal hits but taking the 20-20000 picture and reshaping the corresponding track to fit like a glove.
You could try dynamic EQ SC keyed off of the source
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
FAT
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Duplicate guitar bus and phase reverse.

Feed original guitar bus and phase reversed guitar bus together into a new aux. Guitars have disappeared right? good.

Put a gate on the phase reversed guitar bus and key it off the vocal. Now when the vocal keys the gate, the guitars will duck.

Now, put an EQ across the phase reversed guitar buss, and cut the areas you DONT want ducked, eg if you want the vocal to duck the 2k-3k on the guitar buss, LP up to 2k and HP at 3k, both with steep slopes.

Back in the day we used the same technique for de-essing (without a de-esser).
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eclectic ➑️
Thanks for all the ideas. I use sidechaining all the time and it can be the right trick but with today's technology, I'm sure there is a way (maybe not yet pursued) to capture the dynamic EQ curve of a track and then fit a corresponding EQ on another track to be the polar opposite. Like two pieces of a puzzle. More than just dipping an octave at 2K when the vocal hits but taking the 20-20000 picture and reshaping the corresponding track to fit like a glove.
Isn't this what Paul Frindles DSM plug in does?
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAT ➑️
Duplicate guitar bus and phase reverse.

Feed original guitar bus and phase reversed guitar bus together into a new aux. Guitars have disappeared right? good.

Put a gate on the phase reversed guitar bus and key it off the vocal. Now when the vocal keys the gate, the guitars will duck.

Now, put an EQ across the phase reversed guitar buss, and cut the areas you DONT want ducked, eg if you want the vocal to duck the 2k-3k on the guitar buss, LP up to 2k and HP at 3k, both with steep slopes.

Back in the day we used the same technique for de-essing (without a de-esser).

Although this would work as a more frequency specific form of sidechain compression, it wouldn't have the desired auto-eq effect.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor ➑️
Isn't this what Paul Frindles DSM plug in does?
What would be really cool, would be to have something like a combination of the DSM plug with configurable multiple outputs assigned by frequency, the spaceboy plug, and a multiband compressor that has multiple sidechain inputs.

So you identify the conflicting frequencies between two tracks using spaceboy.
Then you could insert DSM on track A, and the multiband compressor on track B.
You can enter the frequencies given by spaceboy as values into the DSM interface on the one hand, and create bands on the compressor based on those values on the other.
DSM would then have multiple outputs, you could configure the number of outs you need based on the number of conflicting frequencies there are.

As DSM tracks the input signal from the track in real time, it is outputting those frequencies selected by the user on individual outputs.
The individual outputs from DSM each feed into their own sidechain input on the multiband compressor, so then the eq curve of track B is being constantly adjusted as a result of being fed the frequency data from track A, so it's a traditional method, just using multiple bands at the same time, in real time, without having to mult any tracks.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
FAT
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
Although this would work as a more frequency specific form of sidechain compression, it wouldn't have the desired auto-eq effect.

The desired auto-eq effect is a moronic quest. A computer taking care of conflicting frequencies is like a computer taking care of composing music. It would sound robotic.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Spaceboy will do this for you, but I've never really gotten much use out of it...
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAT ➑️
The desired auto-eq effect is a moronic quest. A computer taking care of conflicting frequencies is like a computer taking care of composing music. It would sound robotic.
Not understanding the process of evolution is moronic.
I bet everyone dissed the 303 when it came out, judging it by its intended purpose, but then look what happened to it, same with time-stretching first being introduced for samplers.

Can you imagine how much fun you could have with a plug that output multiple streams of different frequencies, paired with a multiband compresssor with multiple sidechain inputs?
This is what always happens, tools are created for specific purposes, and will often be useful for those purposes, but often not, however there will always be a way of using those tools in more exteme ways and for more creative results.

If people thought the way you do, there would never be any evolution/experimentation.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Addict
 
RockManDan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
this kind of tool could be really cool on drum buses and vocal layers.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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housegezeichnet's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
powercore 3.0

dynamic eq + tc sidechainer!
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAT ➑️
The desired auto-eq effect is a moronic quest. A computer taking care of conflicting frequencies is like a computer taking care of composing music. It would sound robotic.
You're an idiot.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
FAT
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
You're an idiot.

Ok, perhaps 'moronic quest' was a bit harsh. However, there's something quite depressing about watching guys sit around wishing someone would make their plugin ideas. If you think it's a great idea, then design it yourself - or if you're a real engineer, you'll devise a way to do it without waiting for someone to sell it to you.

Time will tell.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You can easily do waht I'm suggesting now, it just means creating multiple instances of the same tracks with a different eq emphasis on each one, and using multiple instances of a multiband compressor with sidechain.

What I'm suggesting is to streamline the process by creating, for example, a multiband compressor that has multiple sidechain inputs assignable to the different bands of the compressor.

I'm not a software designer, but it's such a simple and powerful idea, I'm surprised it hasn't all ready been implemented.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FAT ➑️
Ok, perhaps 'moronic quest' was a bit harsh. However, there's something quite depressing about watching guys sit around wishing someone would make their plugin ideas. If you think it's a great idea, then design it yourself - or if you're a real engineer, you'll devise a way to do it without waiting for someone to sell it to you.

Time will tell.

I can already do this all day long with patches made in Reaktor or Max/MSP, I'm not waiting for anyone to do anything. If you find this kind of discussion depressing, then Gearslutz is probably not the best place for your mental health.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
FAT
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
I can already do this all day long with patches made in Reaktor or Max/MSP, I'm not waiting for anyone to do anything. If you find this kind of discussion depressing, then Gearslutz is probably not the best place for your mental health.
Reaktor's interesting for about 15 minutes. A whole day on it would certainly damage my mental health.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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Old Goat's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm just a dumb folksinger, but couldn't you just automate the eq on each track?
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
FAT
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Goat ➑️
I'm just a dumb folksinger, but couldn't you just automate the eq on each track?
Yes.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
C4 Quad Compressor / Limiter / Dynamic EQ


Rane has Dynamic EQ units...

Side chain the guitar, and it will duck the vocal in that frequency range when the guitar is over the threashold for that range.




-tINY

Old 19th January 2012
  #25
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Yes I know, dead 2 year old thread, but I figured this out

Hi, first post here, be gentle.

My name is toqer, I run karaoke using Reaper as a mixer. While I didn't need a ducking EQ to cut vocals based on instruments, I needed the opposite. I needed to cut instruments based on vocals.

What I did was I took my vocals, and routed it into 3 new tracks (labeled vocal hi/mid/low) On each of these tracks I used Reafir in gate mode to filter the vocal frequencies into their respective ranges.

I also routed the postfx audio into the background music track.

Reaper has a feature called "Parameter Modulation" It lets you control plugins based on audio levels. I dropped a EQ on the background music track, and controlled the high/mid/low gains via the gated vocal tracks.

I was pretty amazed by how effective it was... With karaoke, folks always sing at different pitches (good, bad and hoooorible) Some know how to use a mic correctly, some point the mic at the ceiling and hold it a foot away from their mouths.

This cut out the frequencies in the background music enough where it actually enhanced the vocals.

If anyone's interested I can upload the .rpp file somewhere.
Old 19th January 2012
  #26
mrc
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Why can t this be done with a multiband compressor with sidechain input?
Old 19th January 2012
  #27
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
I guess you could do it with a multiband sidechain compressor (Reacomp comes to mind) but wouldn't you still need to gate out the frequencies before hand so the right frequencies are controlling the right band?
Old 19th January 2012
  #28
mrc
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
it s easy to insert an eq on the sd signal

Sent from my MB525 using Gearslutz.com
Old 19th January 2012
  #29
Gear Head
 
paulster's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Meldaproduction and brainworx both have excellent dynamic eq's with sidechain (vst3) that are perfect for this type of application. Automation is good too.
Old 22nd August 2012
  #30
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brenny's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
FabFilter Pro-C

detailed video: FabFilter Pro-C - Expert mode controls - YouTube
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