Quantcast
Toft ATB and Pro Tools HD - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Toft ATB and Pro Tools HD
Old 3rd February 2009
  #1
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Toft ATB and Pro Tools HD

Ok. I got a line on a NIB Toft ATB24. Its NOT the new 2.1 with balanced direct outs. Im planning on tracking and mixing on the ATB. Will I have problems with sending the unbalanced signal from each channels direct out into my 192s for tracking?Seems like every desk I have ever worked on has balanced outs.

Would I be better off going with a good condition Trident series 65?
Old 3rd February 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
andersmv's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrogmusc ➑️
Ok. I got a line on a NIB Toft ATB24. Its NOT the new 2.1 with balanced direct outs. Im planning on tracking and mixing on the ATB. Will I have problems with sending the unbalanced signal from each channels direct out into my 192s for tracking?Seems like every desk I have ever worked on has balanced outs.

Would I be better off going with a good condition Trident series 65?
I did it all the time with our ATB16 into an 002 for PTLE. Both direct out and the outs on the 8 bus. No problems.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andersmv ➑️
I did it all the time with our ATB16 into an 002 for PTLE. Both direct out and the outs on the 8 bus. No problems.
So why is everyone complaining so much about the unbalanced direct outs? also are the direct outs post fader? Selectable?

Anyone using a 192 with an ATB?

Any info will help greatly as I plan on buying the thing tomorrow if it will work for me.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I thought the reason people complained about the unbalanced was noise. Weren't Tridents unbalanced as well?
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Ngr
Gear Maniac
 
Ngr's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you are not using long cables you should have no problems...
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Nut
 
LRhodes's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I use an ATB 24 with two 192 w/out a problem.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thats what I was thinking. My runs are very short. So I should be fine. Thanks guys.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngr ➑️
If you are not using long cables you should have no problems...
That is very correct.
Old 3rd February 2009
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Space Station's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrogmusc ➑️
Ok. I got a line on a NIB Toft ATB24. Its NOT the new 2.1 with balanced direct outs. Im planning on tracking and mixing on the ATB. Will I have problems with sending the unbalanced signal from each channels direct out into my 192s for tracking?Seems like every desk I have ever worked on has balanced outs.
No, it makes no difference. I use the ATB with Apogee 16x's.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
andersmv's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiff ➑️
I thought the reason people complained about the unbalanced was noise. Weren't Tridents unbalanced as well?
The only time I have had problems with noise was trying to run an SM57 strait into it. For dynamics you really need to run them through a preamp before they hit the board or else you have to rack that gain up and you are going to get some noise.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
OK. I bought the ATB24 and the meterbridge and Im having a custom desk built. (pics in a month or so).

Im going to be using it to track and mix through. So I have a few questions for the ATB users.
Tell me about your routing.

Im wondering what the best option is for sending to DAW and back for monitoring during my tracking sessions. I want to monitor the signal on the bridge during tracking as well as mixdown.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Sorry to hijack this thread, but I am using a Toft ATB-24 (Pilot Program) with an Apogee AD-16x, recording into Pro Tools M-Powered. (Apogee light pipe outputs into M-Audio interface light pipe inputs). I am using the unbalanced channel direct outs on the Toft to feed the Apogee via TRS to DB25 snakes. I was wondering if anyone else finds that the channel input level LEDs on the Toft hit red very easily, especially when using outboard preamps patched into the line inputs of the console. I leave the line trims set to 12:00. I leave the channel faders somewhere between unity and their maximum, but raising the faders past unity also makes the LEDs hit red as well. I am not so concerned about hitting red, but I am concerned that I hear the signal start to get squashed when the input is driven too hard, yet I am not getting a ton of level to the converter. I guess I am saying that I wish the console had more headroom in the channels. My Apogee is calibrated so that a 1kHz test tone at 0VU equals approximately -18dbfs on the converter. I have read the many threads about recording too hot to digital at 24 bit, and I know I don't have to crank my preamps to "11" and fill up the meters in Pro Tools. However, I do hear the difference in resolution between sounds recorded with wimpy low levels and those recorded at "good sounding" levels. I feel I should be able to hit Pro Tools at those good sounding levels without being forced to drive the Toft into the red. Am I wrong? Would recording via the Toft balanced subgroup outputs (as opposed to the channel direct outs) give me more level? Should I change the calibration level on my Apogee? Any suggestions welcome.

Thanks!

Rappy
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Responding to Rappy...

I spoke with Alan on the phone yesterday for quite a while and one of the things he addressed was this same issue. I also have an older Cadac console which I run "in the red" all the time and it tends to sound very good for doing rock drums. Running in the red a little is fine on an analog desk as long as your not clipping the input in your DAW. Digital clipping is much less enjoyabletutt.

However. Im not sure that you should be getting such a weak input signal to your DAW. That seems a little odd. Anyone care to add to this or my routing questions?
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Space Station's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I would just crank the Apogee up higher in calibration mode. See how it sounds is my advice.

You say you use the Line ins of the toft with other pre-amps..does that bypass the pre-amp stage of the toft?

It doesn't look like it on the block diagram. Would going in the channel monitor input(tape return) be better? You can just press the Input reverse button to try it.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrogmusc ➑️
Responding to Rappy...

I spoke with Alan on the phone yesterday for quite a while and one of the things he addressed was this same issue. I also have an older Cadac console which I run "in the red" all the time and it tends to sound very good for doing rock drums. Running in the red a little is fine on an analog desk as long as your not clipping the input in your DAW. Digital clipping is much less enjoyabletutt.

However. Im not sure that you should be getting such a weak input signal to your DAW. That seems a little odd. Anyone care to add to this or my routing questions?
Could the weak signal be due to the unbalanced connection? Not familiar with the AD-16x but on my Metric Halo interface i just switch the inputs to unbalanced and it compensates the line input gain to accommodate the -10db signal.

And on the subject of hitting the red. I like to just "kiss" the reds on my Audioarts console, especially with percussive transient peaks. Thats where all the magic is!
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Where is Alan?
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Tonio Ruiz's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi fellas

I own an ATB32, and I think that it does have a kinda low output in general, cause, in a different scenario than the one posted by Rappy here, I am mostly mixing in my ATB, and I send my mixdown to a Masterlink, and having the stereo buss just without hitting red, the masterlink get's it aroung -9db, and the main outs on the ATB are balanced, so, or the mixer has a kinda low headroom, or I am a total a$$, It might be the second option though... I'm still learning the thing
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Addict
 
JSRogers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey Tonio.. Cool website. Love the "Distressor Menu".
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Station ➑️
I would just crank the Apogee up higher in calibration mode. See how it sounds is my advice.

You say you use the Line ins of the toft with other pre-amps..does that bypass the pre-amp stage of the toft?

It doesn't look like it on the block diagram. Would going in the channel monitor input(tape return) be better? You can just press the Input reverse button to try it.
Thanks. I think I will try cranking the Apogee calibration higher and see how it sounds. Will report back.

To answer your question, the line ins on the Toft sort of go through the preamp, but through a lower gain stage. When the Line button on the channel strip is NOT depressed, signal goes through the XLR input and the mic pre, which has a gain of 0 to +60 dB as controlled by the trim pot. When the Line button IS depressed, signal goes through the TRS line input, which has a gain of -15 to +25dB as controlled by the trim pot. So technically, with the trim set to 12:00 (unity) and using the Line in, there is no gain added, however the signal is still passing through a line amp. I have used the Tape Returns instead of the Line Ins but when you engage the Input Reverse the signal goes through the same line amp and signal path as before. It might sound ever so slightly different using the Tape Returns but it might be psychological.

I agree with what someone said about drums sounding good when the board is a little in the red, but I would like to be able to drive my outboard preamps harder (to take advantage of their saturation) on quieter sources without overloading the circuitry of the Toft. Maybe I need to turn down the Line trim below unity in this situation. I have tried this with mixed results. I would just like a little more headroom on the Toft Channels. I'll try changing the calibration on the converter, though, and maybe I'll hear want I want to hear at lower analogue levels.

Thanks again for the advice everyone.

Peace,

Rappy
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonio Ruiz ➑️
Hi fellas

I own an ATB32, and I think that it does have a kinda low output in general, cause, in a different scenario than the one posted by Rappy here, I am mostly mixing in my ATB, and I send my mixdown to a Masterlink, and having the stereo buss just without hitting red, the masterlink get's it aroung -9db, and the main outs on the ATB are balanced, so, or the mixer has a kinda low headroom, or I am a total a$$, It might be the second option though... I'm still learning the thing
The level is probably fine, but we need more information to comment. The level on the Masterlink is digital and the Toft is an analogue device. The levels don't really correspond with one another. Typically, 0 VU will correspond to -18dbfs on a digital meter but it depends on how it is calibrated. Are the meters on the Masterlink peak or RMS? When you say the Toft is just below hitting the red on the stereo bus, what are the levels on the VU and bar graph/light meters?

There are lots of threads on here about interfacing analogue and digital levels, if you do a search.

Peace,

Rappy
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
dan p's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I noticed low output on my toft32 when i got it.I run the stereo bus into a greatriver mp2nv then to a cd burner and i'm able to get the mixes hotter .

Dan P
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Tonio Ruiz's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrogmusc ➑️
Hey Tonio.. Cool website. Love the "Distressor Menu".
Thanx mate, my wife made it for me
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Tonio Ruiz's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rappy ➑️
The level is probably fine, but we need more information to comment. The level on the Masterlink is digital and the Toft is an analogue device. The levels don't really correspond with one another. Typically, 0 VU will correspond to -18dbfs on a digital meter but it depends on how it is calibrated. Are the meters on the Masterlink peak or RMS? When you say the Toft is just below hitting the red on the stereo bus, what are the levels on the VU and bar graph/light meters?

There are lots of threads on here about interfacing analogue and digital levels, if you do a search.

Peace,

Rappy
I try to keep the VU's on zero, with some transient hits up to +3 at the most, that's what I meant, sorry for the lack of info

I have to check how is the Masterlink's setting, I think it's on RMS... I'll get back at you with that info

it does sound at a ok level I guess, I haven't got complaints from mastering studios regarding this, BUT I've only mixed 2 albums with this set up, it's all part of a gear renovation I did a few months ago, MOTU HD192 (I cannot afford a PTHD right now) and the toft, plus some outboard, so I am still trying to comprehend gain staging and all
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Sen
Gear Addict
 
Sen's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That's exactly the problem with bal/unbal,, the line levels,not so much the noise ..In most cases bal is +4 and unbal -10.....that's why I avoid using my desks pres/direct outs into the HD192 because of the line level mismatching, not bal/unbal mismatching. And that's how you overdrive your inputs too...going from +4 outs into -10 tape or line ins...So i guess the problem is more line levels than balancing..isn't it
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Toft channel direct outs and speaker outs are unbalanced, but they are +4. Not all unbalanced connections are -10. It just seems that way if you are used to dealing with older budget gear.

You're right about -10 and +4 units not interfacing very well, though.

Cheers,

Rappy
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rappy ➑️
The Toft channel direct outs and speaker outs are unbalanced, but they are +4. Not all unbalanced connections are -10. It just seems that way if you are used to dealing with older budget gear
that's good to know
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Sen
Gear Addict
 
Sen's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Rappy,
Yes indeed that's good to know.. I asked Toft Audio this question (what line level aree d/outs and tape returns, but haven't got an answer.
And you will note that I said in "most" not all cases unbal is -10 and bal +4...but anyway, thanks for the heads up on that, I just couldn't find that info.
Do you know if tape returns on ATB accept -10 or +4..there's obviously no trim on the returns..??
Thanks
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Addict
 
Rappy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen ➑️
Rappy,
Yes indeed that's good to know.. I asked Toft Audio this question (what line level aree d/outs and tape returns, but haven't got an answer.
And you will note that I said in "most" not all cases unbal is -10 and bal +4...but anyway, thanks for the heads up on that, I just couldn't find that info.
Do you know if tape returns on ATB accept -10 or +4..there's obviously no trim on the returns..??
Thanks
You know, I said that the direct outs were unbalanced, but +4 nominal, but now I am having trouble confirming that. I swear I read it somewhere, but now that I look in the manual it doesn't specify. I think Alan Hyatt or Malcom Toft may have said it somewhere in an old thread. There are so many Toft threads it is hard to find it in the search. Please let me know if anyone can confirm this.

The tape returns are balanced. There are trims on the tape returns if you engage the Input Reverse button on the channel, which then uses the mic pre/line trim pot at the top of the channel strip for the tape returns. There may be another way to trim the tape returns but I don't do it that way.

Page 3 of the manual tells you which connections are balanced and which are unbalanced on the entire console.

Cheers,

Rappy
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rappy ➑️
You know, I said that the direct outs were unbalanced, but +4 nominal, but now I am having trouble confirming that. Rappy
Confirmed! They are indeed +4 Unbalanced [Well, not anymore with the new revision]
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Sen
Gear Addict
 
Sen's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah, just got the email back from Toft...
The whole board runs at +4 they told me..
Thanks guys, and very good to have the trims on the returns too..
Cheers
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 1010 views: 162680
Avatar for alanhyatt
alanhyatt 10th December 2013
replies: 83 views: 9390
Avatar for Geoff_T
Geoff_T 8th January 2008
replies: 295 views: 74033
Avatar for anguswoodhead
anguswoodhead 26th March 2013
replies: 1296 views: 181406
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump