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ProTools 8 LE+Complete Toolkit vs. PT HD
Old 27th January 2009
  #1
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
ProTools 8 LE+Complete Toolkit vs. PT HD

Im wondering the difference between getting PT 8 with the complete toolkit which is 128 tracks and other stuff vs HD hardware. that is of course, having a macpro 8 core 3.0 ghz with 8 gigs of ram.

I'd be using it for Mixing and Music production/filmscore as well as audio post.

as for the delay compensation i was thinking of the mellowmuse plugin, which doesnt seem that bad but i havent used it so i dunno.

I am used to working with HD3 at the studio but seeing the power of mac pros and the 128 tracks of the complete toolkit, im wondering what are the disadvantages of LE with that computer power.

i didnt see any threads about the complete toolkit vs hd , if there is just link me up..
Old 27th January 2009
  #2
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
IMO when you start to compete Le with HD , you're better off going HD or another DAW , i say that because you are paying a hell of a lot of money for features other DAWS have standard and then some ......
Old 27th January 2009
  #3
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unless you're sync'ing to external playback devices (and need
something like the Sync I/O), then I would think you could use
the complete toolkit just fine.

Some of the benefits of HD for post is that you can do the pull-ups
and downs at the converter .. which is handy. There are more
busses (which is really handy) and up to 256 tracks. If you're using
an Avid system, then there are some nice features that take advantage
of the hardware. The DC in the hardware makes sure things line up
on frames ... although the automation is not frame accurate (sadly).

If you're doing monster mixes .. then the larger format controllers
(Icon) may come in handy .. but they've very expensive.

So .. if you don't have too many tracks (and it's easy to get a lot
in post), then complete will probably do you just fine.

The complete production toolkit has most of the HD editing features.

jeff
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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T_R_S's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I no longer need a second rig with PT 8 + Complete TK. Killer set up with Mellowmuse.
Now with 10 plug-ins per track and a MacPro it's a killer rig.
It's like having HD, there is not much I need. I was really surprised as to how many cool things are in CPTK as far as the HD features go. 128 busses, full on session import data etc.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S ➡️
I no longer need a second rig with PT 8 + Complete TK. Killer set up with Mellowmuse.
Now with 10 plug-ins per track and a MacPro it's a killer rig.
It's like having HD, there is not much I need. I was really surprised as to how many cool things are in CPTK as far as the HD features go. 128 busses, full on session import data etc.
Snapshot automation ... boy i missed that at home ;-) My only complaint is why the MPTK1 to CPTK is the
same price as MPTK2 to CPTK. .. Why??

jeff
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S ➡️
I no longer need a second rig with PT 8 + Complete TK. Killer set up with Mellowmuse.
Now with 10 plug-ins per track and a MacPro it's a killer rig.
It's like having HD, there is not much I need. I was really surprised as to how many cool things are in CPTK as far as the HD features go. 128 busses, full on session import data etc.
wow.. cool.

i remember your posts from back then where more towards the HD side right? so now your posting this comment makes me think LE+cptk is not bad at all.

oh and no i dont need to sync up to vtrs and i usually do pull ups and convertions via a program called session browser which lets you easily convert to and from pal/ntsc and film.
on that topic, how about the digi 003, doesnt it have word clock and digital outs and timcode. maybe not AES but using a converter as a work around. either way ill not be hooking up any vtrs, just comenting.

for post maybe id be mixing a tv show so its like 8 tracks of sxf, 8 of BGs, 8 of dialog, 8 of foley, 8 of music and 5.1 of mx, sfx, dia and Printmaster with its coresponding downfolds. so about 72 tracks on my templete on my hd rig.


as filmscore stuff, it would be diferent. as most of the samples arein my gigastudio. and the template in logic is about 80 tracks of diferent instruments and articulatioin. all out via midi but then id buss them coming in to have a string stem and a brass stem, etc. so maybe having some rtas like storm drum , east west stuff, which are now 64 bit if i upgrade. i dunno if pt 8 is 64 bit as well as leopard.. so if everyhitng is 64 bit end to end. that would be ideal.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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PT8 is not 64bit .. still 32bit. I work around this either by
using Rewire or bouncing to track as I go.

But, your other track requirements should more than be met by
the CPTK (assuming you have a reasonably powered host).

jeff
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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musicguitar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
the only issue i see with LE beyond the delay compensation (mellowmuse seems like a good fix) is the fact that using a box like 003+ or 003 or anything lower is that, correct me if i'm wrong you can't do above 48k with external converters. I mean you can but you're limited to 4 inputs at 96k, or 8 inputs at 48k (due to lightpipe limitations). If it's just for post production I would say PT8 LE with Tool Kit would work great.

I am in a similar situation, I would like a LE rig (prices), with HD (capabilities), but I've been weighing my options and thats what I concluded.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicguitar ➡️
the only issue i see with LE beyond the delay compensation (mellowmuse seems like a good fix) is the fact that using a box like 003+ or 003 or anything lower is that, correct me if i'm wrong you can't do above 48k with external converters. I mean you can but you're limited to 4 inputs at 96k, or 8 inputs at 48k (due to lightpipe limitations). If it's just for post production I would say PT8 LE with Tool Kit would work great.

I am in a similar situation, I would like a LE rig (prices), with HD (capabilities), but I've been weighing my options and thats what I concluded.
The LE interfaces don't SMUX - so it's 96k only on the SPDIF, if you need more than that you're limited to 48k.

I was under the impression the vast majority of post work was ITB anyway - whenever I've worked in places where they do post, there never seems to be any outboard, it's all quick turnover or easily recallable stuff.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Aisle 6's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I use HD, but I must admit that it is a very narrow argument these days. I sometimes wonder when I got screwed so bad by Digi. For me it is only a question of delay compensation (which Mellowmuse seems to handle) as well as low latency monitoring across multi channel recordings. For multi channel drop in's you may need to combine input and output monitoring through a console and I do not believe that LE is quite there yet in that particular dept. Apart from that there is not much to speak of.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicguitar ➡️
the only issue i see with LE beyond the delay compensation (mellowmuse seems like a good fix) is the fact that using a box like 003+ or 003 or anything lower is that, correct me if i'm wrong you can't do above 48k with external converters. I mean you can but you're limited to 4 inputs at 96k, or 8 inputs at 48k (due to lightpipe limitations). If it's just for post production I would say PT8 LE with Tool Kit would work great.

I am in a similar situation, I would like a LE rig (prices), with HD (capabilities), but I've been weighing my options and thats what I concluded.
I got a couple of HD systems and I have to tell you I rarely go above 48kHz.
I do sometimes, but not very often .. and mostly upon request.

For my LE rig (which we use for live recording mostly), we supplemented it
with a Focusrite ISA 828 (with the built in ADC/DAC .. which is pretty
darn good). I also use external pres on the 003 whenever possible. I use
an external clock as well.

It sounds pretty darn good to me .. some ask "well, if you're not using the
clock, or the pres or the converter .. what do you use the 003 for?" And I
say "Protools" ;-)

jeff
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisle 6 ➡️
I use HD, but I must admit that it is a very narrow argument these days. I sometimes wonder when I got screwed so bad by Digi. For me it is only a question of delay compensation (which Mellowmuse seems to handle) as well as low latency monitoring across multi channel recordings. For multi channel drop in's you may need to combine input and output monitoring through a console and I do not believe that LE is quite there yet in that particular dept. Apart from that there is not much to speak of.
For a home/personal production studio - I agree.

For a pro room/tracking room/post where you've got clients coming in - not a contest - you pay for HD to get the reliability and guaranteed track counts/processing of the HD cards.

We've been here many times before....PT8 doesn't really change any of that.
Old 27th January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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huarez's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by H-Rezz ➡️
IMO when you start to compete Le with HD , you're better off going HD or another DAW , i say that because you are paying a hell of a lot of money for features other DAWS have standard and then some ......
For me , I just know Logic 8 besides PT HD, and I ´m floored about PT 8 HD. When I work with Logic now , I´m very happy to go back to PT. And that for a much lower price than Logic 8. In fact, besides the (felt) latency free monitoring , the intergration of a lot of cool hardware and the bunch of TDM PLUGS, I see no real need for HD. Maybe doing it all at 192 (just kidding)
Old 27th January 2009
  #14
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nukmusic's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers ➡️
Im wondering the difference between getting PT 8 with the complete toolkit which is 128 tracks and other stuff vs HD hardware. that is of course, having a macpro 8 core 3.0 ghz with 8 gigs of ram.

I'd be using it for Mixing and Music production/filmscore as well as audio post.

as for the delay compensation i was thinking of the mellowmuse plugin, which doesnt seem that bad but i havent used it so i dunno.

I am used to working with HD3 at the studio but seeing the power of mac pros and the 128 tracks of the complete toolkit, im wondering what are the disadvantages of LE with that computer power.

i didnt see any threads about the complete toolkit vs hd , if there is just link me up..
You really have to evaluate what YOU need and make the choice. Both systems can do wonders for so many people. Some of the extra features of HD are not a requirement to some, and may be a necessity to others. Price also become a factor in what's actually needed and what actually can be purchased.
The new features in PT LE 8 did opened a few eyes. You can also look at a used HD1 system (using all rtas plugs) alone with the host power of your mac pro VS the LE complete system.

Would have been nice if PT LE 8 allowed dual LE audio interfaces or simple had dual Adat I/Os on them.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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Aisle 6's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
For a home/personal production studio - I agree.

For a pro room/tracking room/post where you've got clients coming in - not a contest - you pay for HD to get the reliability and guaranteed track counts/processing of the HD cards.

We've been here many times before....PT8 doesn't really change any of that.
I agree. That is why I also pony up the cash to go HD. But, I also daily see the studio next door to me with a hot rodded 002, the hardware basically just a dongle to launch Tools as it has M-Labs converters hanging off it and a ton of outboard, doing almost the same as what I can in terms of features. Every new release is narrowing the gap and it does make me nervous. I agree that it is not quite there yet, but, BLOODY HELL it is close.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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Benmrx's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic ➡️
Would have been nice if PT LE 8 allowed dual LE audio interfaces or simple had dual Adat I/Os on them.
For what I do and the way I work, more I/O is about the only difference.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benmrx ➡️
For what I do and the way I work, more I/O is about the only difference.
cool. do you do big sessions?

even with lotsa I/o i dont need them. i do mostly all ITB and do a lot of bussing for groups and foldowns (post term)

for the people that have swtiched to LE from HD, what has been the downside?
besides track count and other things in the complete toolkit?
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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Benmrx's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers ➡️
cool. do you do big sessions?
Not huge sessions per say, but I would like to be able to dump all 24 tracks into PTLE off the 2" machine here without having to switch programs or sync two PTLE systems together. But in all honesty, the real kicker for me is having more I/O come mix time for integrating more outboard gear and/or analog summing/mixing.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
For a home/personal production studio - I agree.

For a pro room/tracking room/post where you've got clients coming in - not a contest - you pay for HD to get the reliability and guaranteed track counts/processing of the HD cards.

We've been here many times before....PT8 doesn't really change any of that.
This is in general my opinion as well. If you're recording bands and the like, HD is the way to go. If you're doing work where you're doing the work by yourself or with a partner HD is a luxury.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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ricfoxx's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Keep in mind that a HD1 rig will run out of juice pretty quickly and is a pain in the butt.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Bottom line, HD sounds better, even with the same converters as LE. I was surprised by that, I have to say, but it's not a subtle difference. I love the PT interface, but if I had to go back to working with LE, I think I'd check out Nuendo or Logic instead.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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G-Spot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicguitar ➡️
(...)correct me if i'm wrong you can't do above 48k with external converters. I mean you can but you're limited to 4 inputs at 96k, or 8 inputs at 48k (due to lightpipe limitations). If it's just for post production I would say PT8 LE with Tool Kit would work great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
The LE interfaces don't SMUX - so it's 96k only on the SPDIF, if you need more than that you're limited to 48k.
I was under the impression the vast majority of post work was ITB anyway - whenever I've worked in places where they do post, there never seems to be any outboard, it's all quick turnover or easily recallable stuff.
That's why there's a lot of people going PT M-Powered with the M-Audio Profire 2626. The I/O possibilities of the 2626 are far better than any 002 or 003. You get 16 x 16 ADAT (8 x 8 in S/MUX II mode, 4 x 4 in S/MUX IV mode). Finally you can use your Apogee, RME or Lynx converters up to 96KHz with Pro Tools without going HD. (96kHz and 18 x 18 I/O maximum with Pro Tools M-Powered).
You can also use the 2626 as a A/D converter only, bypassing its pres. There's actually guys buying two 2626... one of them just for A/D conversion, because they are so cheap.

BUT with PT M-Powered you cannot upgrade to the Complete Production Tool Kit, nor to the DV Toolkit, only to the Music Production Toolkit 2 (64 tracks only).
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorfish ➡️
Bottom line, HD sounds better, even with the same converters as LE. I was surprised by that, I have to say, but it's not a subtle difference. I love the PT interface, but if I had to go back to working with LE, I think I'd check out Nuendo or Logic instead.
I don't think that IS the bottom line actually. If that's what you think, that's cool - but you'd have to prove it in a double blind test for me to believe you.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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dlmorley's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Delay compensation and 18 physical i/o are the main things for me.
I getting m-powered for a session that needs PT compatibility as I don't feel like dropping €xxxx just for a session!
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Spot ➡️
BUT with PT M-Powered you cannot upgrade to the Complete Production Tool Kit, nor to the DV Toolkit, only to the Music Production Toolkit 2 (64 tracks only).
i heard Digi is working on this...

jeff
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S ➡️
I no longer need a second rig with PT 8 + Complete TK. Killer set up with Mellowmuse.
Now with 10 plug-ins per track and a MacPro it's a killer rig.
It's like having HD, there is not much I need. I was really surprised as to how many cool things are in CPTK as far as the HD features go. 128 busses, full on session import data etc.
id like to hear more about your experiences cause it seems you are the only one with this setup and you used to have or have an HD system.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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Chris900's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Going HD has been one of the best decisions for me personally. That and finally getting a Mac Pro. My life has been so much easier ever since. I can worry and spend time on the right things, making music i.e.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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Aisle 6's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricfoxx ➡️
Keep in mind that a HD1 rig will run out of juice pretty quickly and is a pain in the butt.
I disagree. I have a HD1 Accel system on an 8 core mac pro and it does not run out of juice ever. I process rtas plugz on most channels, but TDM plugz on all busses and masters. I think that multi HD set ups are not necessary.

HD1 with Lynx Aurora on 8core mac pro. Very, very powerful and with 16 analog and 16 AES digital, it makes a very cost effective HD rig for a pro set up with gas to burn.
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