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Mix width
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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deve's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I figure it must have something to do with those hi-end consoles and monitoring environment they have been using.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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rashman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey ➡️
In some ways, realistic depth would kind of be the enemy of width. Visually and audibly any object of a given size subtends a smaller and smaller angle as it moves further away. If you, for instance, mix the drums really wide, but you treat them otherwise as through they are to sound distant, the brain will have to kind of hear that as a Godzilla sized drum kit. To get something distant realistically, it has to move closer to the center.

But, in a way, that relates to the previous comments on contrast. The things in the back, come closer to the center. The things up front move further out, and that creates a realistic sense of an arrangement of instruments in front of you, some further way and some closer up. The ones brought in by distance may provide a nice contrast to the wider, brighter, more up front widely panned stuff maybe, I dunno.

But if you want a whole mix to be fully pushed back, I would think that there would always be some auditory dissonance if it was also still very wide. Your brain would tell you that it's far back, but it would also hear it filling up the entire sound scape in front of you, which mean in real world terms either it's enormous or you are very small.
Dean, Very good points there! Very true

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddierodriguez ➡️
+2
Example : Listen to Tom Petty; Wild Flowers.
Just about everything that could fit in the center is there in mono and a couple of parts to the left and right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw ➡️
Yep.

And developing the the experience through tried and tested techniques and methods, use of reverb, pre-delay's, delay, panning, eq and developing an 'ear' and 'style'.

Some engineers will just be able to do 'wide' better than others.
Guys with bigger head tend to hear things narrower due to the bigger distance between their ears. Therefore if you listen to mixes byu guys with bigger heads, you see the mixes are wider to compensate. Its as simple as that !
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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Joram's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas G ➡️
There are certain frequencies on hard panned instruments which seems to expand the wideness, others seems to narrow them.
The ear is more sensitive for direction with higher frequencies. We're able to find a bird in a tree better with our ears than eyes. If you want width in your mix, don't just pan sounds (althought panning certainly works to set a sound stage between the speakers). Width is the relation between left en right, so you need to have something in common on both sides. If you combine that with how our ears work it's simple: pan stereo signals with enough energy in the higher regions hard left and right.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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Unclenny's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joram ➡️
it's simple: pan stereo signals with enough energy in the higher regions hard left and right.
Now THERE'S some information.........
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joram ➡️
simple: pan stereo signals with enough energy in the higher regions hard left and right.

Traitor!






...just kidding
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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Joram's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas G ➡️
Traitor!

...just kidding
It's actually not that simple. James Meeker is right when he states that serieus equipment does the job. Lack of soundquality in the top end is very bad for stereo imaging.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joram ➡️
It's actually not that simple. James Meeker is right when he states that serieus equipment does the job. Lack of soundquality in the top end is very bad for stereo imaging.
I agree with you and I'm aware that it isn't that simple :-) That's why I wrote no specific frequencies in my post. I also find the frequency range varies with different instruments as the dynamical character/attack and the content of it's frequencies also comes into play. But I think it's safe to say that muddy sounding instruments tend to narrow the wideness. The problem with muddy and hard panned instrument is that the muddyness often is not so obvious due the strong demasking-effekt of the panning, especially if you are not aware of it or new to mixing. I find often to check a mix in mono is very helpful therefor.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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Noise Commander's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You mentioned some good points.

Of course it comes down to the equipment, the song, the producer, the preamps...etc.

Although it is indeed important to learn how to achieve the best possible quality, I'd still like to speak about another aspect:
I think chart-breaking super-mega quality is sort of an "illusion".

People tend to eat what is put on their plate...and the ones who serve it are the big labels and media companies...and they have built up a global network in the last 50 years that more or less controls big parts of the charts, the radio stations, the music channels ... or at least has a big influence. Warner, Universal (that name says it all ;-)), Sony/Bmg, and - though decreasing – Emi.

So it's not only about being a good artist/producer (even if so in a commercial way) to get in the charts with your songs, but more likely if you are an artist accepted by the big companies, or their pseudo-indie devisions.

But why do they sign and promote one artist and not the other one? In some cases talented people are chosen…but the most talented they often choose not. They like interpreters/performers who do not intend to write and compose their own songs. Who adapt their point of view concerning outfit, music style, sound, concept. You have to be everybody's darling.

Of course the producers working for the labels are top-notch, and achieve the highest level…
But honestly…the masses don't f**** care!! They love melodies, the love hooks, riffs, they love danceable grooves. Most people don't even hear a low pass down to 8 khz or care for it to much, even if they can hear it…Although some can distinguish between high-end and ultra cheap, that does not mean they think it's worth it.


So in my opinion the quality of the big label productions serves the purpose to in a way justify why they signed this or that performer in the first place…It's easier for the masses to believe that the best of the best are in the charts, when their songs sound well. Because they make the artist and the band responsible for the sound, unconciously.

It is weird, that today the labels major playground is the download market - compressed music supposed to be put on Ipods with bad sounding phones, or to be listened with cheap consumer computer speakers. This contradicts their own expensive high quality productions.

I think: the best of the best are the people that create their ART THEMSELVES that's why its called ARTist. And these people are not in the charts very often...

It's paradox, that so many performers are presented to us as the super -inrcedible-mega-talented stars, though they do not even write, produce or play the instruments of their stuff. And most indie rock and brit pop bands, hip hoppers etc. can not even sing!!! Why are they supported…because it is a trend, a desire of the people? Actually no...they just eat the food they're served.

Of course most of the performers in the charts are indeed talented singers, and some even look great, but there are people out there being a lot better than all the Madonnas, Rihannas, Clarksons, etc. out there.
Musicians who produce their style well, write wonderful songs, sing impressive, and so on. Authentic people.

Of course they often sound even better if they have good producers working with them! So that is just fine. What would the world be without those great productions?

But it's in no way true to the heart, if it's not the artist composing and writing a song.
Of course that's just my opinion.

As we all have to make a living, there is no problem with being a slut and work with the sharks.
Or produce and write for performers, that are not 100% talented by any means. But the ones who are multi-talented, that are able to produce, write on their own, have their own style, should at least get the same chance to get in the media and in the charts!

At the moment the charts and the media is like a hotel, where all the rooms are booked-up - because three companies just bought the whole hotel!


Good night! Have a nice week, have fun with your MUSIC!

Last edited by Noise Commander; 10th February 2009 at 01:03 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noise Commander ➡️

But honestly…the masses don't f**** care!! They love melodies, the love hooks, riffs, they love danceable grooves. Most people don't even hear a low pass down to 8 khz or care for it to much, even if they can hear it…Although some can distinguish between high-end and ultra cheap, that does not mean they think it's worth it.
Never, ever, ever underestimate what your clients and the end listeners can or can't hear!

Never think that they won't care about the presentation of the song.

If you work with the idea that they have even better ears than you do then you will let yourself make fewer mistakes.

As far as width goes, I've never struggled with it- I mix L/C/R with as strong a center as I can get away with. Some common enemies to width can be too much stuff panned in between hard L/C/R, too many stereo tracks, too much use of fake stereo fx, crappy sound, low end (basses and kiks) being stereo when they shouldn't, poor arranging.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Ngr
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Ngr's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
in my opinion what makes the big difference between home and big studio production is that the unexperienced producer tend to fill every hole of the song with something he thinks might be fancy. that leaves no space for space, everything gets cluttered and mixes gets narrower.

panning hard is panning hard for everybody, only difference is how many things you have to pan: if you have a vocal reverb, overheads and a guitar you'll get space, that won't happen if you have vocal reverb, oh, three guitars, tambourine, shakers, loops, acoustic, claps and horns.

that said I understand that if you don't get the instruments to sound right when tracking you'll end up adding something else...
Old 10th February 2009
  #71
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Waltz Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture ➡️
Why do commercial recordings have much more width than home recordings?
A good mastering job definitely helps the image.

TW
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #72
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngr ➡️
in my opinion what makes the big difference between home and big studio production is that the unexperienced producer tend to fill every hole of the song with something he thinks might be fancy. that leaves no space for space, everything gets cluttered and mixes gets narrower.

panning hard is panning hard for everybody, only difference is how many things you have to pan: if you have a vocal reverb, overheads and a guitar you'll get space, that won't happen if you have vocal reverb, oh, three guitars, tambourine, shakers, loops, acoustic, claps and horns.

that said I understand that if you don't get the instruments to sound right when tracking you'll end up adding something else...
Exactly! You *can* layer a lot of stuff but it has to work right, and with those kind of productions it never does.

One other thing I think could be mentioned about width is that getting perceived width is not always about making the mix wider. Instead, you can put stuff in the sides that attracts attention to the stereo field- then take it away or pan it to the center and put something else there etc. Switch stuff up. Automation is your friend.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #73
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Dog_Chao_Chao's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
well, just to be a complete smart ass I will say that these days Im fed up with wider, deeper, stronger, powerful, painted, thrown like a rock at you mixes.

Im more into mono. Sounds more like a song? Lets your ears chase and enjoy the music.

But yes, I could learn how to do that better
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #74
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xhavepatiencex's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I am not sure if this has already been posted as I did not read the whole thread, but in my own experience extremely tight performance helps big time, especially with distorted guitars. If they are sloppy no matter how far out I push them, they always seem on top of each other. Same way with drums.
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