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Yes you can mix with plug ins
Old 24th January 2009
  #1
Deleted 99dc753
Guest
Yes you can mix with plug ins

How many people asked here at Gearslutz if it is possible to mix with Plug Ins. I was yesterday at the website of Mr. Michael Brauer so funny his QA:

Quote:
Gear vs. engineer who is using the gear
First, thank you so much for doing this. I have learned a lot from you this month.

How important do you think the gear used in the studio is to making a great record vs. the knowledge and ability of the engineer who is using the gear?

Do you think you could do the same quality mix that you do now if you had to do it all completely "in the box" (i.e. you have a HD3 system, all the plugins made for Pro Tools and an Icon control surface)?
Put a monkey in my room with my gear and see what happens. If he mixes better than me, I'm gonna be pissed.

Put me in a room with whatever is available, and I'm going to deliver you a great mix. No excuses for lack of toys or different formats such as mixing in the box. Mixing is mixing, You're either a mixer or you're a monkey. Simple.


LOL, it's about [email protected]#cking time somebody spoke out.

AWESOME ANSWER. Thanks. That reminds me of that line....."Are you a MexiCAN or a MexiCAN'T"

LOL! Funny, but true. Although, you wouldn't know by the way people talk about gear around here.

Thanks for the great response!

At what point do you think you go from being a monkey to a mixer?
When the mix touches your heart instead of your banana.

But howz about a top engineer with gear made by monkeys vs. the same top engineer with some top gear?

Put me in a room full of top gear and I'll give you a top mix

put me in a room full of bananas and I'll make you a great smoothie
Amen!
Old 24th January 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
" hell yeah, ... either your born to do it or, ... you arent " heh
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
ScumBum's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm a monkeydfegad
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That would explain why he continues to buy outboard gear for his already over the top analog processing collection? I do not know MB, but if he could do it just as well without all the analog tools, why on earth would go through all the trouble of cost and recall of a high end analog system.

If I thought I could do equal quality work with just plug ins, I would certainly stop buying hardware.



RACK #1
# ELYSIA MPRESSOR
# STEREO PYE COMPRESSOR
# FATSO STEREO COMPRESSOR
# EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSOR
# EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSOR
# MOTOWN EQ
# MOTOWN EQ
# DRAWMER 1968 MERCENARY EDITION
# COMPEX STEREO COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER EMI TG12413
# E.A.R. COMPRESSOR
# E.A.R. COMPRESSOR
# FAIRCHILD 666

REAR:
# (2X)1176 COMPRESSORS
# INOVONICS 201 LIMITER
# BOILER MAKER
# GATES COMPRESSOR



RACK #2
# LEX PCM 81
# SONY REVERB DRE 777
# AKAI S612
# TC FIREWORKS
# TC D-TWO
# SANS AMP
# ROLAND 3000A DDL
# MARSHALL TIME MODULATOR
# ZOOM 9030FS1 PANNER
# PORTICO SFE 5014
# THE CULTURE VULTURE
# ENSONIQ DP-4
# FSI CYCLOSONIC PANNER
# KORG A1
# ZOOM 1202
# LEXICON 200

REAR:
# DIMENSION D SDD320
# MARC CUSTOM EFFECTS MIXER
# Berhinger/Edison
# DRAWMER DL241
# SPL TRANSIENT DESIGNER
# (X2) MXR PHASER
# (X2) MXR FLANGER



RACK #3
# FOCUSRITE ISA 115HD
# VACRAC CUSTOM ST. COMP TSL-1
# CUSTOM NEVE/31083
# AVALON RACK A19-6i
(X4)E55 MODULES
(X2)L44 MODULES
# API 5502
# NEVE 33609
# API CUSTOM RACK
(X2)COMP 525
(X1)EQ 554
# MOOG PARAMETRIC MKPE
# (X2) UREI LA3A
# (X2) EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSORS
# 737 AVALON COMPRESSOR
# PENDULUM STEREO ES-8

REAR:
# APHEX B
# PULTEC EQP1A3S
# PULTEC EQP1A3S
# PEAVEY KOSMOS



RACK #4
# HELIOS CUSTOM UNIT
# VACRAC LIM/EQ
# STEREO RNC
# (X4) MXR MINI LIMITERS W/RACK
# FEDERAL COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM TONE CONTROL
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM TONE CONTROL
# CHANDLER TG CHANNEL
# CHANDLER TG CHANNEL
# DATA MIX EQ
# DATA MIX EQ
# TELEFUNKEN W695A X2
# PENDULUM QUARTET II COMPRESSOR
# TRI-TRONICS Dept. of Commerce
# ALTEC 436B

REAR:
# SPECTRASONICS 610
# ELECTRODYNE CA-700



RACK #5
# CHANDLER STEREO CURVEBENDER EQ
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM MONO COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM MONO COMPRESSOR
# SHADOW HILL STEREO MASTERING COMPRESSOR
# VOLUME BOX
# API 2500 STEREO COMPRESSOR
# A/B COMPARISON SWITCHING
# ADL 670 STEREO MASTERING COMPRESSOR
# SHADOWHILL POWER AMP
# ADL POWER AMP


DELAY RACK
# MEAZZI ECHOMATIC
# MOOGER FOOGER LOW PASS FILTER, ANALOG DELAY, RING MODULATOR
# ROLAND SPACE ECHO RE201
# BINSON ECHOREC 2
# FULLTONE TUBE ECHO
# ALTEC TUBE MIXER
# ALTEC TUBE MIXER
# AMPEG TUBE MIXER


WALL #1


# AWA Limiting Compressor/ Type 2G58250
# AWA Limiting Compressor/ Type G7201
# RETRO Mono Compressor
# Drawmer 1961 Mercenary Edition
# Presto Compressor

WALL #2

Click image to enlarge
# Universal 1176
# Universal 1176
# TELETRONIX LA2A
# TELETRONIX LA2A
# JOE MEEK
# Shure Level Loc
# AVALON 747
# DRAWMER DS201
# CHANDLER EMI TG1
# PCM 42 X3
# MEDICI STEREO EQ

WALL #3

Click image to enlarge
# Roland GP100 Guitar Processor
# EDWARD the Compressor P8
# DBX 160
# Lil Freq. X2
# DBX 160
# Sherman Filterbank
# Mutator
# AMS reverb
# PCM 80
# BBE
# SSL Surround Sound XL logic
# Alesis Masterlink X2
# LYNX
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Deleted 99dc753
Guest
I guess you get him wrong.
All he is saying you can get a great mix with both domains.

That he prefers Outboard is his personal taste.

Again I think we all know taht we can have great mixes in both domains and I just wanted to post this for FUN and not for pissing contest again.

And he is a member of GS ...... MHB and a very friendly person I thiink he derservs as a big time mixer to be respectet in his opinion.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
I guess you get him wrong.
All he is saying you can get a great mix with both domains.

That he prefers Outboard is his personal taste.

Again I think we all know taht we can have great mixes in both domains and I just wanted to post this for FUN and not for pissing contest again.

And he is a member of GS ...... MHB and a very friendly person I thiink he derservs as a big time mixer to be respectet in his opinion.
Not a pissing match at all. You posted something that supported your views and I posted something that supported mine. That is what we do here on GS. I completely respect his opinion and yours.

I have always agreed that great records can be made with any available tools.

Interesting to note though in the post when asked

"Do you think you could do the same quality mix that you do now if you had to do it all completely "in the box"

he did not answer yes. He said that a monkey could not mix on his gear and that he could do great work with any tools he had. This is exactly the position I have always taken about the ITB/OTB debate.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
And he is a member of GS ...... MHB and a very friendly person I thiink he derservs as a big time mixer to be respectet in his opinion.
??? in his opinion ???

its just an interview and hes just showing his muscles a lil, theres nothing against it. some humour can never hurt ! heh

you take this stuff too serious imo, MHB gets MUCHO³RESPECT in here ... hes a jedi

how,why,when ? his work is masterturboquality and he likes powerbills !

cant see no bashing @ all
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Deleted 99dc753
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➡️
Not a pissing match at all. You posted something that supported your views and I posted something that supported mine. That is what we do here on GS. I completely respect his opinion and yours.

I have always agreed that great records can be made with any available tools.

Interesting to note though in the post when asked

"Do you think you could do the same quality mix that you do now if you had to do it all completely "in the box"

he did not answer yes. He said that a monkey could not mix on his gear and that he could do great work with any tools he had. This is exactly the position I have always taken about the ITB/OTB debate.

You dont get my point.
I just had fun reading this and wanted to make sure taht some sluts can laugh too......nothing else no discussion no ITB vs OTB just reading and laughing about it.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
ericwall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There's always a wall of outboards behind top-mixers that talks about mixing ITB.

Still waiting to see one of them in a room with a laptop, two speakers and a smile on their face...
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➡️
If I thought I could do equal quality work with just plug ins, I would certainly stop buying hardware
thats just the " emergency " backup for the case that the ilok gets lost
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Phaidon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericwall ➡️
There's always a wall of outboards behind top-mixers that talks about mixing ITB.

Still waiting to see one of them in a room with a laptop, two speakers and a smile on their face...
Truth!
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
china jam's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
HOLMES, it seems you are the one doing the misunderstanding.

Anyone who knows MHB's work can doing nothing but respect his prowess as a mix engineer - although I'm pretty sure I've read him mention relying on certain boxes.

I would assume that these are not plugs.

Last edited by china jam; 25th January 2009 at 03:10 AM.. Reason: read
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
80425
Guest
RCM left it well put. End of story .
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Kush Audio
 
u b k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
another monkey here.

i can't get what i consider a great mix with plugins. i tried. i tried really freakin' hard for many months of my life after i sold my console. and i had a killer mix comp and analog summing box the whole time i was trying. i got 'decent', i got 'passable', i got 'good enough for most people.' but 'great'? not by my reckoning, which admittedly is pretty fierce.

in a nutshell, the perpetual wall of tonelessness ground me down to a nub of a man. i got tired of fighting the very things that were supposed to be helping me. i gradually rebuilt a small arsenal of analog comps and badass eq to process stems, and with every new piece everything fell into place that much easier.

is that more a testament to my style than to the actual capabilities of plugins? i imagine so. but it does refute the premise of this thread, which is that anyone ought to be able to do great work regardless of tools and platform.

it only takes one exception to demote a premise from 'truth' to 'rule-of-thumb'. i consider myself the exception, and i'd bet there are plenty more just like me.


gregory scott - 'ubk'
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Everybody makes a valid point. Honestly I work in the box because that's what I have I feel I can make good mixes with what I have. Now would I take the chance to track a song through a Neve or SSL if offered the chance? Sure but if I can't am I gonna stress because somebody has a million dollar room and I work in my basement Nope cause I have faith in my tools. People flip this whole hardware software thing and make it a big todo. So what if you have pro tools HD or a Radar V or a Studer tape machine. That doesn't matter the key to what we all strive to do is understanding the basics of making a good recording and the techinques to accomplish that task. My friend Jared attended the Recording Workshop he has self produced 3 ep's using a digi 002 and a MacBook Pro. I would take those cd's and put it up next to a John Mayer album any day of the week because Jared understood how to make a good recording and how to make a good mix. Thats life use what you have and work your ass off.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
It's simple.

When I mix ITB I can get good balance. I can get a good mix. It will translate well...people will like it. So yes, you can mix ITB. I dont think the argument has ever been that you can't. You can mix on anything...right?

When I mix OTB the real magic happens. My clients are really happy. I get comments from my peers about how good it sounds. And most importantly I know that its what I wanted to hear.

My biggest problem with working ITB was that I was never able to get what I had in my head...which ment that I wasn't able to do the best work I could. After working OTB I can look people in the eyes and know that I will be able deliver. Also, there is nothing more dissapointing than having to hustle things your not REALLY proud of. Working OTB has aloud me to get behind my work, honestly. Thats what the difference for me.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Yeah, you can do OK work just with plugins if you work hard enough at it.

But why would you want to limit yourself like that?
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Deleted 99dc753
Guest
So pissing contest again.

OK guys we had this a million times and you know there are award winning enginners which did PT mixes ....anyway.

I had fun reading it and I remember not a long time ago reading a MHB interview where he exactly stated that he loves all his gear but you also could have great mixes with today plug ins. And for sure if you like to have the exact sound of an vintage unit you have to buy it etc.....

I still believe after listening to many many records that when its tracked by a great engineer someone like MHB would also make an internal mix where we all could learn a lot.

Pissing contest is opened with this.

I think I am getting to old for this....I go to bed right NOW
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➡️
Yeah, you can do OK work just with plugins if you work hard enough at it.

But why would you want to limit yourself like that?
Alot of people on this board say things like "you need to learn how to do it" or "learn the gain staging" etc...

It just seems like a handicap to me.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
LOL...you create a thread called "yes you can mic with plug ins" and you think its not going to start a debate...
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Chaellus's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
heh
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Maybe one day, if I work hard enough, I can do an ITB mix that charts!

Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➡️
That would explain why he continues to buy outboard gear for his already over the top analog processing collection? I do not know MB, but if he could do it just as well without all the analog tools, why on earth would go through all the trouble of cost and recall of a high end analog system.

If I thought I could do equal quality work with just plug ins, I would certainly stop buying hardware.



RACK #1
# ELYSIA MPRESSOR
# STEREO PYE COMPRESSOR
# FATSO STEREO COMPRESSOR
# EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSOR
# EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSOR
# MOTOWN EQ
# MOTOWN EQ
# DRAWMER 1968 MERCENARY EDITION
# COMPEX STEREO COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER EMI TG12413
# E.A.R. COMPRESSOR
# E.A.R. COMPRESSOR
# FAIRCHILD 666

REAR:
# (2X)1176 COMPRESSORS
# INOVONICS 201 LIMITER
# BOILER MAKER
# GATES COMPRESSOR



RACK #2
# LEX PCM 81
# SONY REVERB DRE 777
# AKAI S612
# TC FIREWORKS
# TC D-TWO
# SANS AMP
# ROLAND 3000A DDL
# MARSHALL TIME MODULATOR
# ZOOM 9030FS1 PANNER
# PORTICO SFE 5014
# THE CULTURE VULTURE
# ENSONIQ DP-4
# FSI CYCLOSONIC PANNER
# KORG A1
# ZOOM 1202
# LEXICON 200

REAR:
# DIMENSION D SDD320
# MARC CUSTOM EFFECTS MIXER
# Berhinger/Edison
# DRAWMER DL241
# SPL TRANSIENT DESIGNER
# (X2) MXR PHASER
# (X2) MXR FLANGER



RACK #3
# FOCUSRITE ISA 115HD
# VACRAC CUSTOM ST. COMP TSL-1
# CUSTOM NEVE/31083
# AVALON RACK A19-6i
(X4)E55 MODULES
(X2)L44 MODULES
# API 5502
# NEVE 33609
# API CUSTOM RACK
(X2)COMP 525
(X1)EQ 554
# MOOG PARAMETRIC MKPE
# (X2) UREI LA3A
# (X2) EMPIRICAL LABS DISTRESSORS
# 737 AVALON COMPRESSOR
# PENDULUM STEREO ES-8

REAR:
# APHEX B
# PULTEC EQP1A3S
# PULTEC EQP1A3S
# PEAVEY KOSMOS



RACK #4
# HELIOS CUSTOM UNIT
# VACRAC LIM/EQ
# STEREO RNC
# (X4) MXR MINI LIMITERS W/RACK
# FEDERAL COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM TONE CONTROL
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM TONE CONTROL
# CHANDLER TG CHANNEL
# CHANDLER TG CHANNEL
# DATA MIX EQ
# DATA MIX EQ
# TELEFUNKEN W695A X2
# PENDULUM QUARTET II COMPRESSOR
# TRI-TRONICS Dept. of Commerce
# ALTEC 436B

REAR:
# SPECTRASONICS 610
# ELECTRODYNE CA-700



RACK #5
# CHANDLER STEREO CURVEBENDER EQ
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM MONO COMPRESSOR
# CHANDLER GERMANIUM MONO COMPRESSOR
# SHADOW HILL STEREO MASTERING COMPRESSOR
# VOLUME BOX
# API 2500 STEREO COMPRESSOR
# A/B COMPARISON SWITCHING
# ADL 670 STEREO MASTERING COMPRESSOR
# SHADOWHILL POWER AMP
# ADL POWER AMP


DELAY RACK
# MEAZZI ECHOMATIC
# MOOGER FOOGER LOW PASS FILTER, ANALOG DELAY, RING MODULATOR
# ROLAND SPACE ECHO RE201
# BINSON ECHOREC 2
# FULLTONE TUBE ECHO
# ALTEC TUBE MIXER
# ALTEC TUBE MIXER
# AMPEG TUBE MIXER


WALL #1


# AWA Limiting Compressor/ Type 2G58250
# AWA Limiting Compressor/ Type G7201
# RETRO Mono Compressor
# Drawmer 1961 Mercenary Edition
# Presto Compressor

WALL #2

Click image to enlarge
# Universal 1176
# Universal 1176
# TELETRONIX LA2A
# TELETRONIX LA2A
# JOE MEEK
# Shure Level Loc
# AVALON 747
# DRAWMER DS201
# CHANDLER EMI TG1
# PCM 42 X3
# MEDICI STEREO EQ

WALL #3

Click image to enlarge
# Roland GP100 Guitar Processor
# EDWARD the Compressor P8
# DBX 160
# Lil Freq. X2
# DBX 160
# Sherman Filterbank
# Mutator
# AMS reverb
# PCM 80
# BBE
# SSL Surround Sound XL logic
# Alesis Masterlink X2
# LYNX
because i like toys and i can afford to buy them. i also buy alot of plugins...why in the world would I do that too? mhb
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keire ➡️
It's simple.

When I mix ITB I can get good balance. I can get a good mix. It will translate well...people will like it. So yes, you can mix ITB. I dont think the argument has ever been that you can't. You can mix on anything...right?

When I mix OTB the real magic happens. My clients are really happy. I get comments from my peers about how good it sounds. And most importantly I know that its what I wanted to hear.

My biggest problem with working ITB was that I was never able to get what I had in my head...which ment that I wasn't able to do the best work I could. After working OTB I can look people in the eyes and know that I will be able deliver. Also, there is nothing more dissapointing than having to hustle things your not REALLY proud of. Working OTB has aloud me to get behind my work, honestly. Thats what the difference for me.
you should listen to serban's mixes, they are all ITB and the mixes are great. mhb
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHB850 ➡️
because i like toys and i can afford to buy them. i also buy alot of plugins...why in the world would I do that too? mhb
to decrease the tax bill ? ... i am just kidding heh

HIHO MHB
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
So pissing contest again.

OK guys we had this a million times and you know there are award winning enginners which did PT mixes ....anyway.

I had fun reading it and I remember not a long time ago reading a MHB interview where he exactly stated that he loves all his gear but you also could have great mixes with today plug ins. And for sure if you like to have the exact sound of an vintage unit you have to buy it etc.....

I still believe after listening to many many records that when its tracked by a great engineer someone like MHB would also make an internal mix where we all could learn a lot.

Pissing contest is opened with this.

I think I am getting to old for this....I go to bed right NOW
As long as the debate over the success of a mix is based on equipment rather than the person using it, you are wasting your time. mhb
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
lord_bunny's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericwall ➡️
There's always a wall of outboards behind top-mixers that talks about mixing ITB.

Still waiting to see one of them in a room with a laptop, two speakers and a smile on their face...

I know a few guys who mix with the outboard when they're freelancing at a studio filthy with gear, but are itb except for maybe their lexicon verb when they're at their own place. Top dudes as well.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
no, it's not a gear it's a skill - how many times this should be pointed out in order to understand a basic principle behind mixing

Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
C_F_H_13's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHB850 ➡️
you should listen to serban's mixes, they are all ITB and the mixes are great. mhb
+1 for sure. Serban's one of the best mixers I ever had the pleasure of working with.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHB850 ➡️
because i like toys and i can afford to buy them. i also buy alot of plugins...why in the world would I do that too? mhb
Great to have you chime in here Michael. Could you point us to some examples of your best totally ITB/ plug in only mixes? Particularly interested in guitar based stuff which always seems to be the hardest to do great ITB.

ps. Loved your recent Sound on Sound article. Lots of food for thought about mixing techniques and approaches.
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