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Yes you can mix with plug ins
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
This is because people would never book a room that didn't have all of the toys.

I think that's just a part too.
But as I wrote I know what RCM means and he has his opinion and that is good.

I think some HW-Units have their own stamp and if you like this stamp and you like to have it 1:1 you need to buy it for sure.

My bad English what I am trying to say is I think some plugs do their Job very well as mostly everything by Universal Audio and some does not.

And I do believe that if we have great recorded files that we can have a great mixdown in both domains.

For RCM as he said using analogue summing is not totally ITB and maybe he is right with this statement.... so also my set-up would not be totally ITB for him... using tape and saturation HW unit as well as some mono compressors.

All I can say for me it is important that I get what I want with my setup.
And I think this is the reason why we see a lot of outboard behind engineers.

They need it because they get what they want with it.

Maybe it is different because younger engineers may learned to get what they want with plug ins.
I remember another compressor shoot-out here at GS where the UAD 1176 Plug In just was by some users often preferd about the hardware.

It is still subjective and will ever be subjective.

If I had all the outboard for sure I would use but I have mainly Plug Ins and for sure I use them to get the best I can get at the level of my up to date skills.
Discussions like this are sometimes depressing because we need to learn to respect each opinion....and I think in 2009 we will see maybe more respect in each camp.

Learning never stops and that is the fun part for me even if I mix exclusively ITB.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #182
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Its not a handicap. You have to learn those things for analog gear as well.
Sorry...of course you do. Gain staging is important.

What I was addressing was the mysterious gain staging comments made on this board. THe ones that hint at the idea that its something different than normal gain staging. Gain staging that is specific to ITB.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keire ➡️
Sorry...of course you do. Gain staging is important.

What I was addressing was the mysterious gain staging comments made on this board. THe ones that hint at the idea that its something different than normal gain staging. Gain staging that is specific to ITB.
Good example that is a fact I learned reading this board... THX GS.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #184
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
I think that's just a part too.
But as I wrote I know what RCM means and he has his opinion and that is good.

I think some HW-Units have their own stamp and if you like this stamp and you like to have it 1:1 you need to buy it for sure.

My bad English what I am trying to say is I think some plugs do their Job very well as mostly everything by Universal Audio and some does not.

And I do believe that if we have great recorded files that we can have a great mixdown in both domains.

For RCM as he said using analogue summing is not totally ITB and maybe he is right with this statement.... so also my set-up would not be totally ITB for him... using tape and saturation HW unit as well as some mono compressors.

All I can say for me it is important that I get what I want with my setup.
And I think this is the reason why we see a lot of outboard behind engineers.

They need it because they get what they want with it.

Maybe it is different because younger engineers may learned to get what they want with plug ins.
I remember another compressor shoot-out here at GS where the UAD 1176 Plug In just was by some users often preferd about the hardware.

It is still subjective and will ever be subjective.

If I had all the outboard for sure I would use but I have mainly Plug Ins and for sure I use them to get the best I can get at the level of my up to date skills.
Discussions like this are sometimes depressing because we need to learn to respect each opinion....and I think in 2009 we will see maybe more respect in each camp.

Learning never stops and that is the fun part for me even if I mix exclusively ITB.
I wasn't meaning to comment on anything but the simple fact that clients like to see bling and equate with "quality"
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #185
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keire ➡️
Sorry...of course you do. Gain staging is important.

What I was addressing was the mysterious gain staging comments made on this board. THe ones that hint at the idea that its something different than normal gain staging. Gain staging that is specific to ITB.
Its not really that mysterious. It is pretty common knowledge as far as I know that it is beneficial sonically to track with peaks between -10 and -20 in the digital domain where as its generally beneficial to push levels fairly hard going to tape although not a necessity.

By tracking at lower levels you avoid clipping from intersample peaks and leave plenty of headroom for plugs etc to operate in. Many believe that with 32 bit float you can just hammer away as hot as you want to but I don't believe that to be that case. Things just sound better ITB when you give things plenty of headroom to function in.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #186
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
This is a forum and did you see that RCM ever bashed me.
Of course not, you on the otherhand were a sarcastic prick to him.

I know his credentials, you just have a big mouth.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #187
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by badboymusic ➡️
Of course not, you on the otherhand were a sarcastic prick to him.

I know his credentials, you just have a big mouth.
dude he is just airing his views don't get ya knickers in a twist tutt
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gussyg2007 ➡️
dude he is just airing his views don't get ya knickers in a twist tutt
may he is not knowing that a discussion can get hard but all this does not mean that I do not respect each other here. And RCM had many discussions on this board and never got angry when it was going harder.

I am just tried to argue please do not get this wrong as RCM is not getting this wrong as well.

I like this board and sometimes yes I think we are all CRAZY
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #189
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🎧 15 years
Originally Posted by firby View Post
In my experience, I can add any compressor, eq, reverb, de-eser, delay, etc. to my OTB mix system and the OTB mix system will still boot up and do it's job. I find that comforting, personally. Plugins have not shown themselves to be the same. Often my Logic system has been rendered unconscious by a lewd lowdown and trifling plugin.

If my console takes a wank on a channel or whatever I don't have to call overseas and talk to some guy from India (no offense to guys from India). I don't know how support from the plugin companies works(I have never called service on any) but I would be pretty offended if they shipped their support overseas like so many IT companies do. I really despise the "is it me or you hardware or software ??" games that those people play to help the bottom line for their shareholders or whatever.

If something here breaks, I'll get it fixed and yes, it will cost money.

If I mix for a year on the OTB system nobody is going to come around and tax me for another year of mixing OTB. Although yes I still have maintenance costs.

I don't hear much difference in a lot of the plugins, I feel like it takes alot of plugins stacked up on tracks to effect the same difference as one piece of hardware driven just right.

Also I like dancing around and bopping/standing up when I mix. If I wanted to sit in a chair all day and make big bucks I would get really good at excel or something.

When I went to audio school I was all hot and bothered about doing ITB mixes using waves plugins. I did some great mixes that way. Now though I am all OTB with exception that I use Logic as a 24 track tape machine, oh and I edit. I think that ITB is absolutely ace for editing.

Good consoles are so frickin cheap used now, I can't fathom not having one on hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
Good points - I can sympathise with some of this sentiment, even if I don't agree on some of the technical matters :-)

But you do use outboard gear - some of which is digital? But you are averse to using a Mac or PC as outboard gear?

Maybe making plug-ins is no longer a valid business to people turned off by them for whatever reason? If for instance I made a box with a processor in it with analogue/digital I/O and made it run our plug-ins processing and nothing else would it make sense to you guys more? The only thing is that instead of costing £200 for as many as you wanted to run simultaneously, it would cost around £2000 at least for each instance of the box.. And of course making boxes would require many times more resources than we currently have or could afford if it ultimately failed to sell.

Whoever made the point about the technical discussion burying the real art of the user, is entirely right. But of course we are still reliant on our technical gear to allow us the privilege of actually doing this stuff at all - whether it be a microphones, consoles, workstations or signal processes :-) All I am honestly trying to do is to bring you these tools in a manner that most suits the way you work - and is sustainable in the modern business climate..

Just thoughts really :-)
Hi Paul.

I have been away from the thread.

But you do use outboard gear - some of which is digital? But you are averse to using a Mac or PC as outboard gear?


Kind of, I have tried it of course. I think that maybe in the future I will find something that sounds good enough to warrant it. Also my mac is a slow g5 it seems likely that something that sells me on plugins or virtual instruments would require an upgrade.

Maybe making plug-ins is no longer a valid business to people turned off by them for whatever reason?

Brother, if you are making money then go for it. I don't hold a grudge against using plugins, I just don't think they are there yet.

If for instance I made a box with a processor in it with analogue/digital I/O and made it run our plug-ins processing and nothing else would it make sense to you guys more? The only thing is that instead of costing £200 for as many as you wanted to run simultaneously, it would cost around £2000 at least for each instance of the box.. And of course making boxes would require many times more resources than we currently have or could afford if it ultimately failed to sell.

This is where our idealogy seems to part ways. There are a sh*tload of crappy reverb, delay, etc, hardware units out there. I think that if you look at the winners it is not solely the code in those units that makes them sound good. Careful design, good analog circuitry and great interfaces make those winning boxes sound good, feel good, provide a good user experience. For example, on some of those boxes the sweet spot is about cranking up signals until the input is limiting slightly, sometimes the output has a sweet spot as well.

I think that you must have at least somewhat of an ear to be even a moderately successful engineer so I don't have to tell you about this. People pay for quality. Build quality mouth watering gear or plugins and they will come in droves.

My internal analogy of this stuff is that mixing with plugins is entirely workable as is cooking with a microwave. However, the microwave has a cluttered interface as compared to a stove (preferably a propane or gas stove). The microwave's success lies in convenience. If you go to a nice restaurant and pay good money to get a good meal, the cooks will be cooking on an older design, more refined stove.

The trick is that the microwave developers understand convenience thus the appearance of buttons that say 'potato' or 'pizza slice'. Great plugins are about convenience, stuff like melodyne or autotune, that kind of thing. Stuff that would take forever on a tape deck and a board if even possible. Great hardware is about tone and interface.

Lastly, people fall in love with what works for them. So you will get all sorts of irrational views because love is irrational. You should have seen the guy that I bought this board from watch it go. People's love gets transferred from the craft to the object. So expect some noise in the signal when you are figuring this all out. As always, you shouldn't beat the champ on a technicality and expect to walk out of the ring as the new champ. You have to show yourself to win, and you can if you deliver the product.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #190
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangoudie ➡️
Did you not see pictures of Craig Potter's mix room for when he did Elbow's most recent Grammy winning album?

Have Elbow won a Grammy?... Don't think so! - Mercuy prize though yes.

They have a great website by the way.

Great performance at Abbey Road here

BBC - Radio 2 - Elbow with the BBC Concert Orchestra
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #191
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
It seems amazing that anyone would do anything other than use whatever they can get their hands on to further their art?
This is exactly the very core of the reason I get into the ITB/OTB discussions. I agree with you completely!!!!!!!! But because so many guys these days are mixing ITB with instant recall, instant recall is becoming an expectation of virtually all clients. It has gotten to the point where instant recall is outweighing the "art" or the sonic quality of the end product. It is restricting people who prefer analog tools from using "whatever they can get their hands on to further their art"

Let me state emphatically for the record, that I have been using plug ins for about 15 years, I find them to very helpful to my work and I have absolutely no problem with anyone in the world preferring plug ins over their analog counterparts!!!!!!!

What I have a problem with is fact that analog mixers are being considered dinosaurs and their working methodologies are being dismissed, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of albums that people consider benchmarks of great sound have been and continue to be mixed on analog consoles.

I know for a fact that many great mixing engineers are knowingly compromising the quality of the work they do, because they know that they will have to deal with a long series of revisions, because clients at every level are now expecting instant recall. The Chris Lord Alges and Andy Wallace's of the world can deal with the recall issue no problem: They leave the studio and an assistant goes and documents everything in the studio, just as it should be, but the problem is that tiny low budget records expect that as well.

Let me state again in no uncertain terms. I get into these ITB/OTB debates not to restrict or discourage anyone from mixing ITB. I do it to try and preserve a more traditional way of working that I find to yield superior results.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #192
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➡️

What I have a problem with is fact that analog mixers are being considered dinosaurs and their working methodologies are being dismissed, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of albums that people consider benchmarks of great sound have been and continue to be mixed on analog consoles.

.
I'm not sure this is true. Music and recording are all over the map, so it depends on who your clients are, but I think a great many are looking to the past musically and technically and sonically. When you think about it, recording with a computer is pretty dinosaurish and, ironically, the old school way seems comparatively fresh and real and new.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #193
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RCM, maybe you would also agree to the fact that mixing ITB is also for the most Musicians a fact of cash.

And you may also would agree that there are out many different great plug ins.

So what musicians should do if they just can not afford a high end professional like you are one.

They should decide that the overall sound ITB is not bad at all and they can pay for it.

With all due respect we have to take this into our view too.
And again I respect you and your great work and your opinion....

No question!
Again a big thanks to your point of views it has made me over think things many times.

But it must be aloud to have my own point of view as well?
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #194
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 ➡️
I'm not sure this is true. Music and recording are all over the map, so it depends on who your clients are, but I think a great many are looking to the past musically and technically and sonically. When you think about it, recording with a computer is pretty dinosaurish and, ironically, the old school way seems comparatively fresh and real and new.

There is no doubt that much of the expertise built up over the years of mixing was lost in early work station design IMVHO. The stuff we did at SSL was pretty subtle - and work stations grew independently out of hard disk recorders, basically as an add on, without much reference to what was already known and understood. There is is still much naivety in workstation mixer design in lots of aspects.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #195
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CJdeVillar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I say analog shmanalog, digital shmigital. No one gives a toss when the end result is pleasing for whatever reason. There is no more art in OTB than there is in ITB in the practical sense. One has to get it right the first time OTB which takes more guts, but clients and punters don't care since guts don't end up in the mix. Great "decisions" in both mediums make a great mix. OTB being more difficult doesn't make it more artful unless the mixing style is the art itself......which is certainly not the point.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #196
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I'm not sure I would agree that OTB is more difficult. In fact I feel strongly that the opposite is true.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #197
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhb850 ➡️
as long as the debate over the success of a mix is based on equipment rather than the person using it, you are wasting your time. Mhb

Love. it. !

Listen to what the man said.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #198
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES ➡️
They should decide that the overall sound ITB is not bad at all and they can pay for it
not bad at all is another topic heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #199
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio Addict ➡️
Love. it. !
now we have to close the forum heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #200
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CJdeVillar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keire ➡️
I'm not sure I would agree that OTB is more difficult. In fact I feel strongly that the opposite is true.

Well then i'm kicking some serious ass, lol. OTB is more difficult on many levels. One simply being that there is no printing anxiety in ITB since recall is a non issue. But if one finds ITB difficult, it is only for lack of mixing ITB and possibly a disproportionate amount of time in OTB.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #201
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJdeVillar ➡️
Well then i'm kicking some serious ass, lol. OTB is more difficult on many levels. One simply being that there is no printing anxiety in ITB since recall is a non issue. But if one finds ITB difficult, it is only for lack of mixing ITB and possibly a disproportionate amount of time in OTB.
Recall doesn't make mixing easier. The sound I get when I put my pultec massive passive and 2500 on a vocal makes mixing easier. Being able to walk around the board...and just grab a knob and dial in the sound i want makes mixing easier. The smile on my clients face when they hear the sounds getting fatter makes it easier. The fact that my client can grab a fader and easily move it makes it easier. The ergonmics makes OTB easier. The harmonic distortion the foot print of my console makes OTB easier.

Working ITB is simply not a nice way to work.

Now, Im not saying that certain plug ins arn't very use full..The C4 in particular is very usefull. So is autotune. But come on...plug ins dont sound great and working around a computer screen with only a mouse is just lame.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #202
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Melodioso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Too much writing, not enough hearing...

These were made ITB btw!
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #203
Gear Head
 
CJdeVillar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keire ➡️
Recall doesn't make mixing easier. The sound I get when I put my pultec massive passive and 2500 on a vocal makes mixing easier. Being able to walk around the board...and just grab a knob and dial in the sound i want makes mixing easier. The smile on my clients face when they hear the sounds getting fatter makes it easier. The fact that my client can grab a fader and easily move it makes it easier. The ergonmics makes OTB easier. The harmonic distortion the foot print of my console makes OTB easier.

Working ITB is simply not a nice way to work.

Now, Im not saying that certain plug ins arn't very use full..The C4 in particular is very usefull. So is autotune. But come on...plug ins dont sound great and working around a computer screen with only a mouse is just lame.


Easier for you, but not easier, and having a non-potential recall certainly makes it harder.

An ITB console and a massive passive layback takes care of the rest. You have chosen the ITB low-end for your point though.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm trying (as best I can) to not include my personal experience or yours to make the point. It is generally easier ITB YMMV. Sonically, I have no issues that would make me OTB exclusive. Regardless, it will improve greatly.

That said, I was 15 years OTB and it took me 2 years of ITB mixing of the last 8 to be comfy before I dumped OTB. Though I will do hybrid mixing and lay-backs when available. I'll never go back. My career model won't allow me to anyway. Cheers.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #204
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso ➡️
Too much writing, not enough hearing...
These were made ITB btw!
you know, thats one of the common problems on a board. in the end we are all " virtual friends " and theres a lot of respect @ least to 99% of the people hanging here from my side.

speaking judging personal skills, what can someone say ? it takes skill & know how and a lot of work & time to make something like your work happen.

but as far as the topic is ITB ... imho this is a great example of what the box isnt really up to.

in music like yours, DYNAMITE, AGRESSION & CONVICTION is what the performance needs & deserves.

i bet theres a lot of processing going on, still the drum sound small and lush, the bass is somewhere else, the gits are wide but far away from being rude, the vocals go like lalalala.

thats all ITB things to my ears at least.

the final thing should rip your head off. of course you can go, the mixer doesnt know it any better. but theres some things that are very hard to achieve.

dont get me wrong, no offense ! i am having those problems most of the time, at least to my ears ... " oooooohhhhh, that sounds great " ... " are you f***** kidding ? "

Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #205
Gear Addict
 
Melodioso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
No offense taken, I appreciate the time you took to listen to those samples! I posted these examples, because sometimes it's funny how a discussion about music and sounds doesn't include any samples to listen to. Lots of people arguing, long posts being written, but no meat. Imagine a photography forum where the people there would argue pages after pages why the Canon WX44 is better -or not- than the Nikon YX89, but without actually posting pics taken by both cameras... kind of pointless, no?

Another slutz posted a mp3 (also ITB) earlier and this was a good idea I thought. Maybe I should have said this was done OTB? Nah. I have a small studio (actually I'm a composer for Film and TV), so I prefer investing in mics and preamps, and those bloody expensive sound libraries (VSL anyone?). Given the quality of today's plugs, and compare that to 10 years earlier, I predict that sometime in the future, plugins will be on par with hardware. Maybe in three years, maybe in ten, maybe in twenty. People are actually comparing for example Waves API plugs with the real deal in studios: the mere fact that there's a need to compare them side by side is an indicator as the quality of those emulations!

As for the OP topic, yes you can mix with plugins, but no need to argue: OTB sounds better when used by the pros. I heard tons of **** mixed OTB, as ITB.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up ➡️
you know, thats one of the common problems on a board. in the end we are all " virtual friends " and theres a lot of respect @ least to 99% of the people hanging here from my side.

speaking judging personal skills, what can someone say ? it takes skill & know how and a lot of work & time to make something like your work happen.

but as far as the topic is ITB ... imho this is a great example of what the box isnt really up to.

in music like yours, DYNAMITE, AGRESSION & CONVICTION is what the performance needs & deserves.

i bet theres a lot of processing going on, still the drum sound small and lush, the bass is somewhere else, the gits are wide but far away from being rude, the vocals go like lalalala.

thats all ITB things to my ears at least.

the final thing should rip your head off. of course you can go, the mixer doesnt know it any better. but theres some things that are very hard to achieve.

dont get me wrong, no offense ! i am having those problems most of the time, at least for my ears ... " oooooohhhhh, that sounds great " ... " are you f***** kidding ? "

Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #206
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso ➡️
I posted these examples, because sometimes it's funny how a discussion about music and sounds doesn't include any samples to listen to. Lots of people arguing, long posts being written, but no meat. Imagine a photography forum where the people there would argue pages after pages why the Canon WX44 is better -or not- than the Nikon YX89, but without actually posting pics taken by both cameras... kind of pointless, no?
The difference being that we can go out the store and buy a copy of the last mixed ITB Motley Crue album and compare it to the last mixed on an analog console Tool Album. We can also listen to recent albums by Dave Mathews Band, Nickleback, and Avril Lavign that have a mix of OTB and ITB mixes and compare them. Now thanks to your post we can compare your mixes to other OTB mixes in a similar genre.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #207
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Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhb850
as long as the debate over the success of a mix is based on equipment rather than the person using it, you are wasting your time. Mhb
Please Listen to MB. He speaks golden words. Then....

Listen for Yourself. Then just keep listening because that is the job description.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #208
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melodioso ➡️
I predict that sometime in the future, plugins will be on par with hardware. Maybe in three years, maybe in ten, maybe in twenty.

imho it just takes some more time going by, till everybodys used to.

the world wont stop spinning when that day will come.

food turns into ****,

but lets discuss a lil, if we are into >real fire< vs >microwave<

Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #209
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➡️
sounds like we are in agreement.
Most of the time we are.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #210
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJdeVillar ➡️
Well then i'm kicking some serious ass, lol. OTB is more difficult on many levels. One simply being that there is no printing anxiety in ITB since recall is a non issue. But if one finds ITB difficult, it is only for lack of mixing ITB and possibly a disproportionate amount of time in OTB.
The reverse may be said as well.
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