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Yes you can mix with plug ins
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #91
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T_R_S's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm ➑️
I do not know of a single pieces of analog gear that can do exactly what Massey L2007 can do.
OTH I don't know a single piece of analog gear that do what AutoTune, Elastic Audio, VocAilgn, Drumagog etc. ( there are dozens of plug-ins that do things that Analog can't)
There is no single holy grail, you need the right tool for the right job.
Click on the link in my signature.
Elastic Audio, Autotune, No Amps all plug-ins.
The only mix hardware was a VariMu and a Lexicon PCM80 & 96.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #92
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
rrrrrriiigggrligletmendendenburlubigginssnezniumpmchunk!...and I can prove it with a null test....
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #93
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
rrrrrriiigggrligletmendendenburlubigginssnezniumpmchunk!...and I can prove it with a null test....
Wow!!
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #94
Gear Nut
 
J.R. McNeely's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Why am I even reading this?

It's like a bad reality TV show. I keep telling myself to change the channel .....yet.....I can't seem to look away.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #95
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Oh well, why do some guys always try to evangelize others?
If you can mix with plug ins, then by all means go ahead and do it!
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #96
Lives for gear
 
gorillainthemix's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericwall ➑️
There's always a wall of outboards behind top-mixers that talks about mixing ITB.

Still waiting to see one of them in a room with a laptop, two speakers and a smile on their face...
ok so he's not smiling, and not the best pics I could find...but this guy (Holger Schwedt) is one of Holland's top mixers and he works on 100+ track mixes regulary, using nothing but plug-ins and everything ITB.
Attached Thumbnails
Yes you can mix with plug ins-holger.jpg   Yes you can mix with plug ins-holgienewsmsmartresult.jpg  
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #97
GS Community Manager
 
Whitecat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S ➑️
OTH I don't know a single piece of analog gear that do what AutoTune, Elastic Audio, VocAilgn, Drumagog etc. ( there are dozens of plug-ins that do things that Analog can't)
There is no single holy grail, you need the right tool for the right job.
Click on the link in my signature.
Elastic Audio, Autotune, No Amps all plug-ins.
The only mix hardware was a VariMu and a Lexicon PCM80 & 96.
exactly... this is the best point in favour of this argument...

Paul Frindle's DSM, RNDigital's D1 & D4, a good handful of Audio Damage plugs, almost everything OhmForce makes, these things are just not possible with hardware, and I'm happy there are a handful of developers out there who are pushing what's possible.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #98
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➑️
Maybe one day, if I work hard enough, I can do an ITB mix that charts!

It,s the song not the mix...got a **** song?...make it sound great and it still sucks....got a great song? make it sound like **** and it will still hit.....heh
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #99
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigramp ➑️
check this HARDWARE vs SOFTWARE compressor shootout

FET Compressor by Softube

softube FET compressor VS Universal Audio 6176


i think SOME software compressor are VERY close
Close but no cigar on this occasion.

The software is noticeably 'flabbier'.

This is fairly typical of software compressors - but when they start to get that immediate front-end response action right - it will be great.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #100
Gear Maniac
 
Wally's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
lol
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #101
Gear Maniac
 
ericwall's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
UAD1176 compared to MC77

This is the bad side of plugs to me. Lots of hype and nice GUI's.

Totally un-scientific i guess but I don't need science to compare units in my studio.

Tried to match the UAD1176 to my MC77 as much as I could, 8:1.

Imagine this lame duck spread out on multiple tracks in a rock mix. Where's the grab, the mojo, the attitude?

The MC77 gave even me some attitude and I'm as far from rock as you can be vocally.
Attached Files
File Type: aif UAD1176.aif (678.2 KB, 199 views) File Type: aif PurpleMC77.aif (678.2 KB, 212 views)
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #102
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigramp ➑️
check this HARDWARE vs SOFTWARE compressor shootout

FET Compressor by Softube

softube FET compressor VS Universal Audio 6176


i think SOME software compressor are VERY close

some are COMPLETE ****, like Logic's built in compressor, which is one of the worst i've ever heard.

but i guess it's always better to compress while tracking. once the sound is digitized, it doesn't "react" the same

to me the main problem with plugins is, the more you you pile them, the more they kill the 3Dness of your sound

and plugin distortion is far from the real deal
I did tell myself I wouldn;t get involved in this thread, but like some others here I am captivated by it :-(

My fundamental thoughts are (as always) that you must use what you are comfortable with using to get the art you are trying to make. There is no philosophical merit in this or that object or process - as far as I am concerned people can bang dustbin lids together if that produces art that moves me.

But human beings are masters of division and conflict where none exists - that's what our brains are primed to do apparently.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #103
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S ➑️
OTH I don't know a single piece of analog gear that do what AutoTune, Elastic Audio, VocAilgn, Drumagog etc.
Basically tools to fix bad performances, bad vocal techniques and bad tracking on the engineers part.

Ummmm food for thought.
(I am half kidding by the way).
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #104
Lives for gear
 
robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearaddict ➑️
It,s the song not the mix...got a **** song?...make it sound great and it still sucks....got a great song? make it sound like **** and it will still hit.....heh
Oh, for sure, and the song doesn't even have to be that good. I was being sarcastic- been there done that, still hate mixing ITB.
Old 28th January 2009 | Show parent
  #105
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macgee's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
i'd say for people that have always mixed OTB, they would likely prefer that.

nowadays though many people (like me) have never tried mixing OTB so ITB just comes naturally and eventually i guess that will just become the norm.

it's happening all over the industry; photography, HD digital video camera, AD converters, etc!
they're all analogous to each other so it's clear where things are going. some people are prepared to put up the fight, others don't care

at the end of the day, people will just do what they want anyways

i for one love the flexibility of ITB and wouldn't even bother trying to mix OTB since i kow my tools and i know them welll and how to achieve what i'm looking for...the same is true for OTB guys (or girls)
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #106
Lives for gear
 
Unclenny's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by macleodgrant ➑️
many people (like me) have never tried mixing OTB so ITB just comes naturally
That's me too.....an old guy who got in the game late.

Tell you what, though. Give me $50K and I'll be in the market for some serious hardware.

Until then......I'll have to keep on plugin'.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #107
Lives for gear
 
colinmiller's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I went for a long period of time where I was only mixing ITB and preferred it and felt it was better than OTB. But eventually I was forced to do some mixes OTB and had to concede that the stuff I did OTB despite being more comfortable ITB and despite being convinced my ITB mixes were as good as any OTB mixes I had done, was much better.

It was only in comparing them that it became obvious for me.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #108
Lives for gear
 
robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by macleodgrant ➑️

i for one love the flexibility of ITB and wouldn't even bother trying to mix OTB since i kow my tools and i know them welll and how to achieve what i'm looking for...the same is true for OTB guys (or girls)
I don't know, there are people who hop from doing one to the other (I do) , and some form of hybrid setup is the industry norm I think.

If you've never tried OTB, that isn't to say you wouldn't do well at it or wouldn't prefer it... Maybe, maybe not.

If you learn to work outboard really well, you're still going to keep your ITB skills in any case, and will probably even better them from the experience. Not to say that you should immediately go out and buy outboard, but I wouldn't limit myself to ITB just because I can.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #109
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericwall ➑️
This is the bad side of plugs to me. Lots of hype and nice GUI's.

Totally un-scientific i guess but I don't need science to compare units in my studio.

Tried to match the UAD1176 to my MC77 as much as I could, 8:1.

Imagine this lame duck spread out on multiple tracks in a rock mix. Where's the grab, the mojo, the attitude?

The MC77 gave even me some attitude and I'm as far from rock as you can be vocally.
I don't own either of these but I like the UAD sample much better. IMO
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #110
Gear Head
 
CJdeVillar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
In the box?



What box?



Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #111
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor ➑️
Basically tools to fix bad performances, bad vocal techniques and bad tracking on the engineers part.
The stuff terminal3 lists are not.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #112
Lives for gear
 
macgee's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante ➑️
I don't know, there are people who hop from doing one to the other (I do) , and some form of hybrid setup is the industry norm I think.

If you've never tried OTB, that isn't to say you wouldn't do well at it or wouldn't prefer it... Maybe, maybe not.

If you learn to work outboard really well, you're still going to keep your ITB skills in any case, and will probably even better them from the experience. Not to say that you should immediately go out and buy outboard, but I wouldn't limit myself to ITB just because I can.
it's not really about limiting. hardware costs so much and you also need to demo equipment before integrating it so there is so much benefit to mixing ITB. and then you're also limited to using a single instance unless you bounce it down.

for the guys that can afford it and have the space; i'm very happy for you and i would love to have that too but it's not feasible for me

this is my latest work done purely ITB
https://gearspace.com/board/attachme...ou_my_love.mp3
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #113
Lives for gear
 
tnjazz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up ➑️
thats just the " emergency " backup for the case that the ilok gets lost
Classic!!! I laughed out loud at this. heh



Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #114
Lives for gear
 
Fidelis's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➑️

But human beings are masters of division and conflict where none exists - that's what our brains are primed to do apparently.
Hey Paul! You're the man!
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #115
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by macleodgrant ➑️
i'd say for people that have always mixed OTB, they would likely prefer that.

nowadays though many people (like me) have never tried mixing OTB so ITB just comes naturally and eventually i guess that will just become the norm.

it's happening all over the industry; photography, HD digital video camera, AD converters, etc!
they're all analogous to each other so it's clear where things are going. some people are prepared to put up the fight, others don't care

at the end of the day, people will just do what they want anyways

i for one love the flexibility of ITB and wouldn't even bother trying to mix OTB since i kow my tools and i know them welll and how to achieve what i'm looking for...the same is true for OTB guys (or girls)

Exactly - to everyone their own :-)

Digital processing is allowing us (the designers of old) to make things that are simply not possible in analogue, ever - our latest plug is just one example. I dreamt of being able to do this kind of thing in the 70's and 80's when I was mixing!

I find it difficult to believe that people would be dogmatic enough to actually pass up on all this because this stuff isn't - 'in a box'?!!

Because the 'Wintel' commercial monopoly dictates that however powerful this year's machine is, it has to grind to a virtual standstill after a couple of years so you replace it - your average consumer computer for a few hundred bucks on the high street, is actually dramatically more powerful than the great majority of 'expansion cards' and processing product in 'boxes' costing several times the price - that are limited to a single function. We can run a couple of hundred of our DSMs simultaneously on a high spec Mac, while still mixing 24 tracks of audio - but some of the expensive processing boxes out there cannot even run a single one on it's own doing nothing else at all! The old Win 98 PC you dumped years ago is actually more powerful in practical terms!

This represents an incredible bargain for the sound engineer at all levels of professionalism. For the price of a computer on the high street and some (good) plug-in licences you can run 100's of instances of EQ, Dynamics simultaneously (more than would physically fit in your studio) - and a whole load of stuff that could never ever be had in analogue at all - to a precision that is not even theoretically possible in the physical world - often developed by the very same people that used to be limited to making the very 'boxes' you hold in such high esteem.

Surely it's totally impossible that any thinking person would actually pass up on this amazing opportunity?

It's this view of reality that's making this thread both incredible but sadly compelling to me - I am honestly having difficulty believing it?
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #116
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I won't enter into the discussion of which one sounds better, but i can guarantee that mixing OTB is so much more intuitive, easy and fun.

With commercial SSL mix rooms at 500/day assistant included, you can book a whole week to mix an entire album for just 3,500.

With such prices, I don't see a point in mixing (or tracking) on a bedroom, in front of a TFT, with a mouse and a pair of small nearfields. But this is just me.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #117
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
I won't enter into the discussion of which one sounds better, but i can guarantee that mixing OTB is so much more intuitive, easy and fun.

With commercial SSL mix rooms at 500/day assistant included, you can book a whole week to mix an entire album for just 3,500.

With such prices, I don't see a point in mixing (or tracking) on a bedroom, in front of a TFT, with a mouse and a pair of small nearfields. But this is just me.
Sure - I agree, it's completely different experience, it's the one I grew up with. But why should it be one or the other mutual exclusion - surely you have plug-ins running as outboard gear too?
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #118
Lives for gear
 
RCM - Ronan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich ➑️
I won't enter into the discussion of which one sounds better, but i can guarantee that mixing OTB is so much more intuitive, easy and fun.
I was thinking about this yesterday. I am in the middle of mixing an album (on an analog console) and the client would ask me quite often about my EQ moves saying "That sounds great. What did you just do to the guitar?" and I realized that I could not really tell him off the top of my head. I just know the way my board sounds, I had just boosted a bit on the high-mid range control a lit bit around 11 o'clock.

I know frequencies and have pretty developed ear for knowing what is needed, but when I am sitting in front of a console its more like playing an instrument.
Old 29th January 2009 | Show parent
  #119
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➑️
Surely it's totally impossible that any thinking person would actually pass up on this amazing opportunity?
Still a lot of people seem to struggle with the more&more&more concept.

I guess the soundfactor is just the top of the iceberg in a very complex discussion.

Nobody wouldnt probably have a problem with fullfilling his/her vision with the technology they are able to use. A lot of factors come to mind why some do and some dont.

Old 30th January 2009 | Show parent
  #120
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5down1up ➑️
Still a lot of people seem to struggle with the more&more&more concept.

I guess the soundfactor is just the top of the iceberg in a very complex discussion.

Nobody wouldnt probably have a problem with fullfilling his/her vision with the technology they are able to use. A lot of factors come to mind why some do and some dont.

Yes - I would agree with that, there is just so much out there of such varying quality and usefulness. Also there are a lot of 'fashion trends' that muddy the waters (like attempted and sometimes dubious legacy clones), and stuff that's really innovative can so easily be lost in the hubbub of marketing 'noise'. There are also the confounding claims of 'digital accuracy' that is wrongly used to confer a notion of 'lateral validity' onto things that are not accurate emulations of past kit, or indeed innovative at all - even though their internal math maybe floating point 64bit blah-blah.. The industry is largely killing itself with it's own marketing 'noise'.

All this certainly makes my brain hurt like everyone else's - and I have to be honest that I ignore this stuff when designing anything - I always have. I am after something that I want mostly always based on sounds in my head - and I don't look at anything else out there for fear of being waylaid from that vision.

It's just a terrific shame if people buried under all this stuff give up trying to find out what's really worth using that could make their lives so much easier and produce results unavailable by other means? But I must confess that I really do understand their sentiments.....
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