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Clearmountain Interview in Sound On Sound
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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cjogo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If Bobs daughter now works for Behringer --does mean there's a conflict with him "using" their gear ... >> whatever works for him & his clients thumbsup
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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robot gigante's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Yeah, this definitely isn't worth slamming someone over, especially a fellow engineer.

It's quite silly as well to blindly rush out and buy something because of an interview, but everyone makes their own choices.

FeatheredSerpent, I would venture to say it's the human factor that has drawn people like Bob C. here and could keep them around, not the gear. Most people don't want to hang around a pack of insecure, angry, obsessed a**holes for too long, and while gearslutz isn't totally that, there are definitely some tendencies for that kind of behavior that we should watch out for.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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colinmiller's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
It's been stated though that he has name-dropped apogee in several different printed interviews, and I think that if his wife has such a large stake in the company, and he is extremely influential himself, then that is a definite issue.
There is no doubt about that.
Yes there absolutely is doubt about this. This is a witch hunt and nothing more. He has name droped apogee stuff long before he had any involvement with them. It was his use of Apogee that lead to his marriage. People are trying to imply that he is only interesting in apogee and only mentioning them because of his wife. But it's completely the opposite. Anyone who knows anything about Bob knows that he is practically responsible for their success. he is teh one that was using ans swearing by their stuff before anyone had ever heard of them and certainly long before his involvement. The reason he became so close to the company was because he used their gear so much and it was so crucial to his work. Thus he started working with them and ultimately met his now wife through them.

but now that he is married he has to stop saying what he thinks? he has to give false information so that over sensative people will feel better? That's jsut plain silly.

The fact of the matter is he is discussing a product that helped him and is sharing that with others so that it may help them. He is doing a service to the community and readers and some here are so insecure that they have to start a witch hunt. He is talking about a product that is no longer being made. There is no way they can profit from it and it can in no way be advertising since it is no longer for sale.

Again, the guy doesn't use Apogee because of his wife. he found his wife indirectly because of his love for the gear they make. The only way the criticism could be valid is if he only started talking about such stuff after he got married, and even then it would be conjecture. How come no one criticizes Dave P when he talked about Waves plugins? Because there's no reason to. How come no one criticizes Tony M when he talks about waves plugins, how come no one critisizes all other engineers who talk about gear they endorse? Again, witch hunt.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
woo hoo - I'm away for one day and look what I started!

China jam - thanks for the kind words, and narcoman too

Nickynicknick - I think you're an ass sometimes too - not always though, hopefully the same holds in reverse. The price of being blunt I suppose.

I certainly respect BC for all his work - and I'm sure he wouldn't use Apogee stuff if he didn't like it. I just felt it was a kind of odd quote to pull from the interview, and the personal relationship should be made clear.

We've got a mini mp at one of our rooms - I'll pay it a bit more attention from now on! Maybe after the rack of vintage neves though.....

Oh, and if mr C ever dips into this thread - sorry, it wasn't meant in the spirit that some seem to have taken it!
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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Barish's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Laughing my ass off here. Brilliant.

I put my sig under everything thethrillfactor has said in this thread. No point in repeating the same stuff over and over. My stance is clear.

As for worshipping my hero, let me put this in record for FAT:

I think I have long past the point of having heroes for any purpose in this business. Not going to get into putting down a CV here, suffice it to say I have got to the point in my career where I have played stadium stages as a performer, and been featured in TV programs' titles for a few seasons etc. in my native country, so I think I have passed that initiation psychology quite a while ago. I just see, acknowledge and celebrate outstanding success, because I know by first hand how hard it is to get there. You don't knock down such people so easily.

And I have never met or worked with Mr Clearmountain, but yes, I did follow what he did professionally and how he did it. Well, who didn't? We all wondered how the heck they created that sound and space back in the day, and that curiosity is why we are all in this business today.

I also happen to own a Gearslutz-like board with some 6400+ participants in a different language, and although I'd never count myself so important VIP AE or anything, I know a bit or two about the technical and artistic side of these things, and the entrepreneurial success in the past 6-7 years put me in a position where I DO get followed by a group of people for my likes and dislikes so I am aware of how influential it can get, and it can't get. And since I have the usual suspects as advertisers in my boards, and due to my connections with certain folk in real life, I know a bit or two about conflicts of interest, freebies, gear-pimping, etc, etc. from an insider look. I can tell when I see one.

And finally, I do not own or sell Apogee gear. I have used many, but I have never owned any. And if I needed to keep one, I'd have one without having to pay for it.

Thank you.

B.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjogo ➑️
If Bobs daughter now works for Behringer --does mean there's a conflict with him "using" their gear ... >> whatever works for him & his clients thumbsup
It's not about "using" gear - it's about "bigging it up".... especially when you sit in a seat of respectability and influence. That's all. If it was politics you would be under investigation for taking back handers.... any one remember "cash for questions"? .... this is the same.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller ➑️
Correct, neither he nor his wife have anything in stake at what he is promoting. He is NOT promoting Apogee. So no I wouldn't say it's ridiculous. I would say it's ridiculous to claim he is promoting the apogee name. At least if one reads the OP. Pay careful attention to what he is promoting. That's the key here.
He said APogee made the best preamp... which wasn't true, its' good, was great value (i mean GREAT value) but i've much gear hat surpasses it.... and cost more - so maybe it's true to say pound for pound it's one of the best...... He also bigs up Apogee a LOT - always next to Apogee gear in his photos.

Has nothing to gain? It's his wife's company. What's not to see? As I mentioned above - do this in politics and there are all kinds of troubles. He's done nothing particularly wrong - but I wouldn't do it. I would never sit and promote something I was connected to through relationships and give it off as independent opinion. There is bias - whether intended or not.

If I tell you that "blah blah" TV series has the best music but my business partner did it, would you believe me? Or a certain book released is the best on a topic but my sister wrote it, would you believe me? Whenever a relationship is in the wire - you just cannot process that relationship as having no influence. BC is perfectly at liberty to do as he wishes..... and he still has my massive respect - but not for this...... this is just a bit.... yeuch.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
@Colinmiller - ok, that puts a slightly different slant on it, I was assuming* the opposite.

Superlatives like 'best' are still worth avoiding though. I think only a very short time on this or any other audio forum is enough to understand the basic consumer psychology behind gear purchases, the kind of psychology that any marketing department (or individual for that matter) worth their salt are fully aware of.

For example I've been using an ADA8000 for a couple of years and was really happy with it, even though it has been rubbished countless times, and so to find glowing reports about it from people on this board that I look up to made me feel a whole bunch better about it.
I have made lots of posts since then on other forums defending it and encouraging people to look at it as a worthy unit, word of mouth on the internet is an extremely powerful thing, and soundonsound itself is the biggest selling audio mag in the world, so in this case I would say that with great power comes great responsiblity.

I think it would be more effective for Apogee in the long run if brand endorsements by BC were not to stop, but to be seen as a little more objective maybe?

*mother of all ****ups and all that.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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vodka gimli's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
It's quite silly as well to blindly rush out and buy something because of an interview, but everyone makes their own choices.
It sure is, and I'm glad NO ONE on this thread has suggested that's what they are going to do, but then again, everyone makes their own choices when interpreting a post, I guess.

My only reason for posting that initial quote was to point out that a high-profile AE has praised a discontinued piece of gear, one that is available used at a decent price, a price that might entice me to check one out... and won't it be fun to see what that BC endorsement does to the market value of used Mini MPs. That was it.

The rest y'all made up, so again, my apologies to Bob Clearmountain. I trust you will continue to be too busy kicking (most) everyone on this forum's ass and turning down work they'd die to be considered for to defend yourself!
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #70
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Iggy Poop's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
@Colinmiller -

so in this case I would say that with great power comes great responsiblity.
My spidey sense is tingling!
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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88fingerz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I now this is ON-topic, but anyone else like to comment on their findings with the Apogee Mini pre or Mini me for that matter (same pres)?
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Guru
 
Sid Viscous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor ➑️
Dude why even go there?

The man has a proven history & track record better than anyone here and if that is what he thinks or feels than its probably coming from a good place.

If you disagree state it as so, but don't throw the guy under the bus with heresay.
(Very unprofessional IMO).
I don't see how helps Apogee. It seemed like he was insulting Apogee for stopping. They are now 5k on Ebay though.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I'm a big B.C. fan. I'm not a big Apogee fan. Do I have the credentials that Bob has? No. Does that make my opinion invalid. No.

I truly believe Bob likes Apogee gear and uses it for that reason. I have also noticed that he does make a point of bringing up Apogee quite a bit. More than he used to. And yes it does seem that there is usually a piece of Apogee in a lot of pics.

If I liked the gear and my wife was in charge of the company, I would probably make a point of talking it up too. I don't see anything wrong with that. He is a celeb in this industry and is in asset to Apogee. I don't see this any different than Maserati pimping his Wave plugins, JJP or whomever.

Try to read G.S for 5 minutes without reading someone pimping gear or being mentioned for pimping the gear.

I'm sure there will be a bunch of people trying to find MPs on ebay because Bob talked about them. Business as usual.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #74
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travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
This is ********. Conflict of interest isn't a viable blanket accusation. It has particular contexts where it becomes meaningful. Some of you should go back to making records and stop being conspiracy theorists.

Conflict of interest is only an issue is only an issue where conflict of interest is an issue. If BC was in a position where impartiality was required or expected, like a gear reviewer or adjudicator, then maybe -- but he's not. He's making records - he's actually putting his money where his mouth is and using the gear that he purportedly or allegedly endorses. Or maybe he's just using the gear he likes for whatever confluence of reasons. I trust that a AE of BC's calibre uses whatever gear he wants. He's not selling himself short by using Apogee in any case.

I betcha BC got a few free sets of NS10s. Oh right, no-one likes those anyways, so that could be considered career-damaging.

I'm surprised no-one has yet accused BC of sleeping with the head of Apogee to get free gear.

I bet over the dinner table BC has said to his wife, "I wish you guys still made the Mini-MP" without continuing on to say, "so I could shill it for you."

Go through the "Guest Moderator" section and find all the gear mentioned by the celebrated guest engineers/producers. Account for all the gear mentioned and find if there was some endorsement, deal, freebee, t-shirt, AES aftershow drink, gear-loan that *might* have ingratiated said moderator to gear.

Then let's run every fracker off gearslutz who is qualified and accomplished enough to actually deserve an endorsement so they ever show their faces around here again.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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colinmiller's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
He said APogee made the best preamp... which wasn't true, its' good, was great value (i mean GREAT value) but i've much gear hat surpasses it.... and cost more - so maybe it's true to say pound for pound it's one of the best...... He also bigs up Apogee a LOT - always next to Apogee gear in his photos.

Has nothing to gain? It's his wife's company. What's not to see? As I mentioned above - do this in politics and there are all kinds of troubles. He's done nothing particularly wrong - but I wouldn't do it. I would never sit and promote something I was connected to through relationships and give it off as independent opinion. There is bias - whether intended or not.

If I tell you that "blah blah" TV series has the best music but my business partner did it, would you believe me? Or a certain book released is the best on a topic but my sister wrote it, would you believe me? Whenever a relationship is in the wire - you just cannot process that relationship as having no influence. BC is perfectly at liberty to do as he wishes..... and he still has my massive respect - but not for this...... this is just a bit.... yeuch.
Let's look at the quote one more tme shall we?

"I had brought some Apogee Mini-MP mic preamps for Mick’s vocal, snare, bass drum and the overhead mics. The Mini-MPs are the best mic pres on the market, but nobody knows about them, and Apogee has stopped making them."

So not only are you dishonestly misquoting him, but you are saying that your opinion is the only valid one. Let's pretend he DID say apogee makes the best mic pres. How is that wrong? Because your opinion is different? Is there some publication that we can all go to where you can tell everyone what gear is or isn't good so we can all know what is right and wrong? I mean for some reason the rest of the world has been going around using their ears and making their own determinations when apparently we should have been consulting you right?

If Bob thinks the Mini-Me is a great pre-amp, then he has a right o his opinion. But perhaps you can write him and correct him that his opinion is wrong because it's not your opinion.

Again, tell us what he has to gain by talking about a product that is no longer sold. How does the company gain from a product they don't make? The only bias is coming from the people claiming he is wrong for talking about a piece of equipment he used on a project and sharing that information with others so that it can help them (the whole purpose of an interview). It was 100% right thing to do and it's what pretty much every engineer in every interview has ever done.

And again, your analogy is 100% false. Because it would be like me pushing a TV series that my partner was not involved in and then you claiming it's a conflict of interest. If Apogee was selling the mini-me you might have a point even though it would be complete conjecture. But in this case it's not even conjecture it's just flat out wrong. He is not pushing or endorsing any products and the product he is referring to is not sold by apogee. Apogee doesn't even make mic pres, they used Millenia pres in some of their previous products that are not sold such as the Mini-me (not for sale).
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #76
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
no. That's not it at all.


His wife runs the company. Anything, ANYTHING, he says about Apogee - whether right or wrong - is tainted by his personal involvement. My brother is one of the best drummers on this planet - got a massive track record. But me saying so isn't believable because he's my brother. So i tend to leave it alone.... You can paint it anyway you like, you can throw your insinuations at me too (which, by the way, is putting me off even being involved in this interesting debate, so I'd appreciate being treated with a little respect - i misquoted nobody) but it is how it is. My respect for BC and his achievements is still very high, but his Apogee endorsement (okay it's implied rather than explicit) are just a little "well you would say that".....heck - Victor Kiam put me off buying a Remington! I dislike biased opinion - it HAS to be independent.

I haven't anywhere stated my opinion is greatly important. The thing I DO know is I co-own a very successful company and I wouldn't enter into ANY similar commentary that BCs interview did. Yes - you'll see my ugly mug on adverts - but not in an interview. BCs statement of "best preamp around" absolutely reeks of favorability tainted by relationship - even if he really thinks it, which I'm afraid I just do not believe. Anyone who has used that particular kit knows that it is pretty good, worth the money but is pretty ****ing far from the world class piece of kit intimated by BC. I have an MP (in fact, I think I have three of them - have to check).... and they're cool.

In running business affairs you have to be (to coin a washing powder phrase) "whiter than white" to retain credibility, something you may come to realise should your (actually rather good) software project take of in a big way..... Heck - do you even realise how much social relationships play in the politics of work? It's a little bit like your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend telling us your product is the best in the world and (at the same time) claiming no bias......

His opinion has the air of bias whether he intended it to or not. Bias - in this context - is primarily based on perception. All commentary made (agreed in a slightly negative but NOT derogatory way) has been along the lines of - "it is my opinion that BC cannot be trusted on this one because Apogee is run by his wife". Even though the MP is no longer made it's still a glowing reference to the company. The brand is all important remember. And in this case... BCs ever present glowing affirmations of Apogees products just puts me off.... I upgraded the converters in all of the studio rooms our company owns last year. In all that was 18 sets of converter boxes. I put 4 Apogee units in two of the rooms. I might think again if I was doing it now.....
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller ➑️
I mean for some reason the rest of the world has been going around using their ears and making their own determinations when apparently we should have been consulting you right?
.

.... Nice move. I base at least half of my business decisions on my opinion of the people who own the company. How highly do you think I rate smart alec comments...? I'm guessing you don't care.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #78
sbs
Gear Nut
 
sbs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
should it really come as a surprise that BC or anyone for that matter, would say favourable things about a product, discontinued or otherwise, that was produced by the company his partner/company/family member is a major player in?

i mean, come on?

really?

Last edited by sbs; 26th January 2009 at 03:21 AM.. Reason: a little more concise... its late... sue me
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #79
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown ➑️

I'm surprised no-one has yet accused BC of sleeping with the head of Apogee to get free gear.
LMAO!!! Sorry, that's the best quote from the whole thread
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #80
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbs ➑️
should it really come as a surprise that BC or anyone for that matter, would say favourable things about a product, discontinued or otherwise, that was produced by the company his partner/company/family member is a major player in?

i mean, come on?

really?

I wouldn't do it. But yes - of course, you're right. I'm only disappointed because BC and Apogee don't need to do this. BC is a legend, and Apogee make great gear.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #81
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
All he had to do was drop in "I think that" before his statement and no-one would have anything to complain about (imo).
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #82
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
All he had to do was drop in "I think that" before his statement and no-one would have anything to complain about (imo).
Totally.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #83
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Sk106's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I don't know about you, but to me ... "I think that ...", or "My opinion is ..." is implicit, to anything anyone says. Nobody speaks for anything or anyone else more than themselves. And .. this ain't no court situation, where someone's judgement or personal interest must be beyond questioning. If Clearmountain says he loves them, then Bruce Swedien may try them and downright say "this is crap" still. It's like music: BB King loves the A guitar brand, and Eric Clapton friggin hates those, and says the B guitar brand is da ****. Ain't no such thing as "if it's got quality, the talented people will hear/use that", things don't work that hierarchical. We make up our own minds, our own opinions anyway - no matter what the elephants in the djungle signs onto.

But if we're to be pragmatic, we may as well interpret Clearmountain's marrige as a rock solid proof of Apogees quality: Apogee is so good, that they made possibly the world's most reknowned engineer Marry them. How's that for credibility?
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #84
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
"The Mini-MPs are the best mic pres on the market, but nobody knows about them, and Apogee has stopped making them".


Wow!


BLATANT endorsement is what it is - no question. Period. tutt
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #85
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badmark's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Then again, we have no way of knowing what BC might have said to qualify his statement but which got left out of the interview as it appears on the page. Sound on Sound, for all its merits, has never struck me as being particularly fastidious about the potential for product placement that inevitably runs alongside an article like this. As I said in an earlier post, it does seem a bit ho-hum, but in the great scheme of capitalist propagandizing it's hardly a hanging offence that the man's committed.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #86
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
My brother is one of the best drummers on this planet - got a massive track record. But me saying so isn't believable because he's my brother. So i tend to leave it alone....
Narco?

You wouldn't tell someone how great a drummer your brother is because... he's your brother? What about his talent and his credits speaking for itself?

Jesus... With brothers like that we all need friends.

R.

Last edited by Ol' Betsey; 26th January 2009 at 02:15 PM.. Reason: Attached quote...
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #87
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark ➑️
Then again, we have no way of knowing what BC might have said to qualify his statement but which got left out of the interview as it appears on the page.
I was gonna say this exact thing.

I've seen BC mention his wife a number of times in previous interviews, and you know, maybe even the interviewer/editor thought it was old news by now and left it on the cutting room floor?

R.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #88
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey ➑️
Narco?

You wouldn't tell someone how great a drummer your brother is because... he's your brother? What about his talent and his credits speaking for itself?

Jesus... With brothers like that we all need friends.

R.
well - for one his track record speaks for itself. For another - no-one would ever believe me! It's pure "he's my brother" and that's exactly how it comes off.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #89
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
well - for one his track record speaks for itself. For another - no-one would ever believe me! It's pure "he's my brother" and that's exactly how it comes off.
I guess maybe people don't trust your sincerity enough?

Just as some are now calling calling on BC's sincerity?

I know if I trusted you and your artistic integrity the last thing I would do is question a suggestion of using someone you recommended. Brother or no bother.

You seem to think it's OK to advertise a product (via some photo or website blurb) but then why not talk about it in writing?

That's just strange. And quite possibly why all of this cynicism towards advertising and marketing has come up in the first place?

R.
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #90
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey ➑️
I guess maybe people don't trust your sincerity enough?

Just as some are now calling calling on BC's sincerity?

I know if I trusted you and your artistic integrity the last thing I would do is question a suggestion of using someone you recommended. Brother or no bother.

You seem to think it's OK to advertise a product (via some photo or website blurb) but then why not talk about it in writing?

That's just strange. And quite possibly why all of this cynicism towards advertising and marketing has come up in the first place?

R.
I think if you knew the lobbying boards I sit on for fair play for musicians, and the work I do in trying to control "music tech colleges ripping off the youth" you'd take that first bit back. I fight tooth and nail to protect musicians jobs......why turn this into an attack on me (heck you don't even know what I do !!). I'm not attacking BC - I've mentioned my disbelief that's all....

Like good old colin - you're inciting an argument. It's not about sincerity - I have integrity. I never "big up" stuff, I don't shoot my mouth off about how "great this is" unless I REALLY think it's great..... with the caveat that if what I say can be interpreted as personal bias - I don't get involved. EVER. When I'm pulling jobs together my regulars STILL have to put in a pitch. They do not get the job because they're mates or blood relatives..... Likewise I've turned down jobs if I don't believe in the job being done.

.... As for advertising - on all the adverts I appear in, I stand by what I say. I turn down EVERY freebie.... I've paid for the products I endorse. I've taken three freebies in my life - I hugely regretted being asked to say "how ace they are".... Since then - never.


I haven't commented upon BCs sincerity, with the possible exception about the MP..... that part just leaves me confused....

The thing is, how can you tell what is real and what is bias? Same as politics.... you must not put yourself in a position of questionable credibility. This is just like the old CEO of BP hiring his brother as the BP accountant..... jobs for the boys - we used to call it. And something I'm opposed to.

The bottom line is : if it can be taken as bias - don't get involved. Heck in legal circles if here is suspicion of bias parties are excluded from events - trials, litigation or contract negotiation. Personal involvement in projects needs to be self policed. I only indicated that I'm disappointed in BC for his pro Apogee stances. Not in his abilities, nor in Apogees excellence.
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