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BFD, drum libraries and how they are used
Old 23rd January 2009
  #1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
BFD, drum libraries and how they are used

I have exclusively recorded drum kits for my projects and have little experience with these apps. I am looking to do the following:
1) Find a sound library that I can trigger from midi files.

2) Possibly trigger said library somehow to enhance the live drum kit sounds.

Walk before I run though.

Do apps like BFD simply provide a drum sound library or do they provide other programming tools to create the midi files?
Do they provide tools to convert a live drum track to midi? Like say I want to enhance a snare track. Would I convert it to midi or would I have to past in my sample of choice for every snare hit?

I guess I need an over view of how these tools are being utilized.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #2
Deleted 99dc753
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
I have exclusively recorded drum kits for my projects and have little experience with these apps. I am looking to do the following:
1) Find a sound library that I can trigger from midi files.

2) Possibly trigger said library somehow to enhance the live drum kit sounds.

Walk before I run though.

Do apps like BFD simply provide a drum sound library or do they provide other programming tools to create the midi files?
Do they provide tools to convert a live drum track to midi? Like say I want to enhance a snare track. Would I convert it to midi or would I have to past in my sample of choice for every snare hit?

I guess I need an over view of how these tools are being utilized.

I find bfd good if you use it for drum replacing with a tool like Drummagog. Prgramming a realistic drum kid with BFD is possible but a pain in the as.

I also used it for triggering notes played by Roland Midi Drum kit but replacing with drummagog is just fine you can take bad recorded drums and make the sound like a million dollar drum sound.
Old 23rd January 2009
  #3
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dbjp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
BFD2 and other plugins like it (Superior for example) are there so you can either enter your own beats via midi or use their internal midi grooves to trigger their sound samples.
These plugins not only have the individual instruments being miced, but also OH mics, Amb mics and room mics that you can adjust. BFD2 can adjust the bleed level nicely too.

For what you're trying to do, you should probably check out Drumagog, specifically designed for sample replacement or enhancement.

If you want to convert your recorded beats into midi first so you can use these sample based plugins, then you could use Massey's DTM (if you have Pro Tools) or Toontrack's Drumtracker (I think it's stand alone).

If you asked any specific questions it would probably be easier to answer.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp ➡️
BFD2 and other plugins like it (Superior for example) are there so you can either enter your own beats via midi or use their internal midi grooves to trigger their sound samples.
These plugins not only have the individual instruments being miced, but also OH mics, Amb mics and room mics that you can adjust. BFD2 can adjust the bleed level nicely too.

For what you're trying to do, you should probably check out Drumagog, specifically designed for sample replacement or enhancement.

If you want to convert your recorded beats into midi first so you can use these sample based plugins, then you could use Massey's DTM (if you have Pro Tools) or Toontrack's Drumtracker (I think it's stand alone).

If you asked any specific questions it would probably be easier to answer.
Its difficult to ask specific questions when I don't own any of the apps and have little experiencebut here goes

1) I need a library of good drum sounds. I want realistic acoustic drum samples
2) I need an app to load up those sounds to be triggered via midi. If these drum libraries have this built in similar to how the sampler apps like Kontact do then cool.

For the purposes of drum replacement / enhancement:

1)Is it easier to use an app to translate a live track to midi or simple cut and paste in the samples by hand?
2) Is there an app that can translate the live track to midi?

I have Kompact. I will have to loo into whether it can use samples other that what came stock. Past that I would have to purchase
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
this is n't bfd, but it might solve a few of you're problems

Toontrack®

there's a video tutorial half way down on right side
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Its difficult to ask specific questions when I don't own any of the apps and have little experiencebut here goes

1) I need a library of good drum sounds. I want realistic acoustic drum samples
2) I need an app to load up those sounds to be triggered via midi. If these drum libraries have this built in similar to how the sampler apps like Kontact do then cool.

For the purposes of drum replacement / enhancement:

1)Is it easier to use an app to translate a live track to midi or simple cut and paste in the samples by hand?
2) Is there an app that can translate the live track to midi?

I have Kompact. I will have to loo into whether it can use samples other that what came stock. Past that I would have to purchase
for the top pair of questions--you'll probably find a lot of answers on the fxpansion homesite for BFD. BFD is more than just the sound library, it's a whole programming-mixing environment. So yes it's the sampler playback machine as well.

For the 2nd pair of questions--The poster above mentioned DTDM by Massey and Drumagog. Those are the two big ones for translating audio transients to midi. You can do it in a clunky way in Logic also. And I would think that any of those methods are way easier than cutting and pasting by hand, especially considering that you get the added finesse of the different velocity samples.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I think the Joe Barresi sample pack for BFD 2 sounds really good. It is quite a step up for the samples that come packed with it already.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
1) I need a library of good drum sounds. I want realistic acoustic drum samples
2) I need an app to load up those sounds to be triggered via midi. If these drum libraries have this built in similar to how the sampler apps like Kontact do then cool.
There are quite a few different products that do what you need.
You typically need some kind of host, like Pro Tools, Cubase, Logic etc....
But most of the drum libraries themselves have sample playback, and mixing, fx plug-ins etc.
There is an enormous amount of information on Gearslutz (try a search), plus on each company's websites.
I think in the end choosing a particular product comes down to personal taste. They each have a different play back or drum sound philosophy.
Many people who are into soft drums have bought more than one product and mix and match them to taste.
Leading libraries that can be used over midi or as sound enhancement/replacement are:
Superior 2, BFD 2, Addictive and Steven Slate.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
If you know what you are are doing, you can create very realistic results with BFD. You will kind of have to commit as much time learning that as you would learning to get good results with real drums probably. So it's not trivial to get really good with them, but it's a very flexible way to work, and necessary for many of us. Part of that difficulty is that you have to be able to mix drums just as you would real drums (with a few possible simplifications if you want to use them, such as controllable bleed.) If you already know how to mix drums really well, then a lot of the price is already paid.

You have to get some of the expansion packs and use the high velocity level versions in order to get best results.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What's your DAW?
For samples, you'll probably enjoy BFD for acoustic style drums if you get the right expansion pack. Try the demo to get an idea.

As for midi conversion, I've listed the products that will do that. Massey DTM (PT only), Toontrack Drum Tracker (stand alone). I've not used Drumagog but it seems to be able to do midi output, so that you not only get to use its internal mechanisms for samples but use it with your favorite drum sampler.

Just demo all of them and see what you like.





Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➡️
Its difficult to ask specific questions when I don't own any of the apps and have little experiencebut here goes

1) I need a library of good drum sounds. I want realistic acoustic drum samples
2) I need an app to load up those sounds to be triggered via midi. If these drum libraries have this built in similar to how the sampler apps like Kontact do then cool.

For the purposes of drum replacement / enhancement:

1)Is it easier to use an app to translate a live track to midi or simple cut and paste in the samples by hand?
2) Is there an app that can translate the live track to midi?

I have Kompact. I will have to loo into whether it can use samples other that what came stock. Past that I would have to purchase
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp ➡️
What's your DAW?
For samples, you'll probably enjoy BFD for acoustic style drums if you get the right expansion pack. Try the demo to get an idea.

As for midi conversion, I've listed the products that will do that. Massey DTM (PT only), Toontrack Drum Tracker (stand alone). I've not used Drumagog but it seems to be able to do midi output, so that you not only get to use its internal mechanisms for samples but use it with your favorite drum sampler.

Just demo all of them and see what you like.
I have used steinberg for a number of years and currently have SX3. I have been doing a lot more work with Reaper of late as well.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
brutze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If you want to work fast, replacing/enhancing live drums with samples, drumagog is just the ticket! There is a demo vers. you can try out I think.
A great great plugin.

For sample libraries with sequencing. I always thought DFHS sounded better than BFD but it's a bitch to operate. Maybe why they discontinued it.
NI Battery can give great results with a bit of work. None of these sound like a real drummer in a room.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You can import drum tracks as audio files and split them up into slices easily in SX, they can then be moved around, sample-replaced, quantised like midi etc. You can then use the resulting file as a quantise template for midi too, but it won't actually generate a midi file itself (well SX2.2 doesn't, don't know about 3).

I use Battery 2 which is another good sample library/player with editing options, version 3 is even better spec'd, but I'm lookiing at Steven Slate rather than getting an upgrade, probably do both actually as Battery has some nice ethnic and electronic kits, which the others don't offer.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I am not real keen on drum replacement to begin with, its just a skill I would like to have. A drum library that I can trigger with a midi file is what I want to focus on. The couple of drum kits available in Kompact are OK but something a little more comprehensive would be nice.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
As someone said before, I think it would be good to mix and match a couple of libraries. Check out the Steven Slate demos, sounds really good.

I give props to Battery though because of the openness of it, it will import practically any sample format that exists, and you can use it as a full featured sampler in its own right, it doesn't have to be used for drums, which is a big plus.

You can check out the kits with a description and demo of each one here

NATIVE INSTRUMENTS : Products : Sampling Line : Battery 3 : Sample Library

I know it's a bad habit to recommend gear that we own when we haven't tried the alternatives, but I use this
ControlPad

with it, fantastic for getting natural hat and snare lines into the box.
(I'm not a drummer but I have rhythm and two functioning arms, and playing with sticks is a lot more satisfying than with fingers! )

One cool thing I just found out about the control pad, it acts as a midi interface as well, in that it has a usb midi connection and hardware midi in/out. Because usb isn't so hot in my experience with timing-critical input like drums, I use a normal midi connection from control pad to interface, then my controller keyboard, which has now lost its input, I plug into the midi in of the control pad. Now the usb connection acts as a midi thru, so that midi stream is available independently from within the daw.

(I tried both, and there is less latency using the hard midi out from the CP compared to the usb connection, with no other settings changed. We're only talking a millisecond, maybe 2 at the most, but it's enough to put you off when playing drums).

I'm sure you would be very happy with any of the other packages mentioned, but I have no experience with them.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
If you really want to get optimum results, you need to have a controller that allows you to play them like a real instrument. Having to use the kind of simple pad controllers like most of use (I use a padKontrol myself), you shouldn't expect to get optimal results. It would be like playing a piano with a few tiny keys in a square.

Given that a virtual kit isn't practical for me, or most of us, I want to get a ZenDrum LT:

http://www.fxpansion.com/fxvideoplayer/videoplayer.php?id=226
http://www.zendrum.com/catalog.html#lt

Then I'd have a real instrument, with the kind of layout, touch sensitivity, and size that would allow me to really play the drums. With the padKontrol, I do pretty well, but a square is a stupid layout, let's face it. And most non-square cheap ones are about as bad.

The LT has enough pads that you can redundantly map the key drums so that you can get to them in multiple places, and you can play with your thumbs and fingers very naturally, and with some real movement of your hands so that you can get into the feel of the rhythm. To avoid maxing out the velocity on every note with the padKontrol takes ridiculous amounts of restraint that make it hard to really get into it.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Those things are damn cool and the demos are INSANE!

For that price though I would expect them to include the sample library of your choosing at no extra cost..
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Guru
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➡️
Those things are damn cool and the demos are INSANE!

For that price though I would expect them to include the sample library of your choosing at no extra cost..
It's got to be a quite low volume market, so I'm actually suprised that it costs no more than it does. I doubt seriously they are getting rich at that price given how many they probably actually sell, and given that they are probably fairly manually made.
Old 3rd April 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
If you want a really acoustic sound, maybe you'll like my latest library for kontakt:

___// AcousticsampleS \\___

It's a sonor Jazz drum kit that features multi mic positions, custom mapping as well as presets for V-DRUMS, IMAP, GP ans NSKIT.

It also features 100 midi loops recorded live on a v-drums.
Old 3rd April 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I have used steinberg for a number of years and currently have SX3. I have been doing a lot more work with Reaper of late as well.
If you're using Reaper - you don't really need drumagog. The tools built into Reaper work quite well. I'm not a fan of sound replacement in general, but it has it's uses.

I'm a recent (well, in the process) convert to Reaper.. I was playing with it the other night, and drum replacement is pretty simple with the included tools and a couple of free plugins.
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