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Toms too resonant
Old 21st January 2009
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Toms too resonant

I'm wondering if anyone here can offer an suggestions on the
best way to reduce resonance in toms when tracking. I record with a
DW kit, which I carefully tune to eliminate "ringing" overtones, but
I still end up with too much sustain. Ultimately I end up cranking
up 4k in the mix to get more "smack" and ducking the lows and
low mids to reduce the long sustain. I've tried various amounts
of dampening on the heads, but that ends up dulling the sound.
I know that DW tends to be more resonant than other kits, but
I've got to believe this can be solved without selling my drums.

So I'm wondering what can be done in terms of tuning, head selection
or mic selection to help this. I currently use emporer clear heads
and MD421 mics on the toms (with KM184 overheads).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Old 21st January 2009
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
You say you've tried various forms of damping, but have you tried various combinations of actual heads. Chances are you probably have, but it's always worth stating in case you haven't. What sort of sound are you trying to emulate?
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Guru
 
tINY's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years


The Evans laminated heads may help. Have you tried the damping rings?

It sometimes helps to tune the drums down.

Also - don't make any final judgements until you hear the whole mix. What sounds too resonant on its own ends up being the glue that holds a mix together.




-tINY

Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Gear Addict
 
Tim Abraham's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Tuning, heads, and damping will be the most important place to start, but if you can get in the ballpark, the Transient Designer does wonders for difficult toms.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #5
kit
Gear Maniac
 
kit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Aquarian Performer II on the batter side, and Evans G1 on the resonant, That will give you the sound you want without the overtone. If that doesn't do it add a set of Rem-O's, tone rings.

Kit
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 
softwareguy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If you haven't already done this, tune the top and bottom heads to the exact same pitch. This greatly reduces sustain without compromising impact and liveliness.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Lives for gear
 
superburtm's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Try some tape and some eq..also back the mics away...also 421's are kinda standard but ove the years i have learned to not realy like them much..try something different
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Resonant Toms

I think head choices are vastly over-rated. They will not change a DW into a Gretch.
I reckon Clear Emperors are exactly right. Plenty of tone, and smack.
I don't damp mine at all. They may sound ringy in solo but it is a balance thing. If you damp you also lose the wanted clarity. What are the bottom heads? Clear Ambassadors?- I tune mine to slightly below the top. Maybe a semitone. That MoonGel seems good, try it in or near the centre of the underside heads. That might deaden or shorten the fundamental.
You could try this- find the low fundamental tone and suck it out a little with a parametric eq.
Good Luck, DD
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Addict
 
ORGANIK's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tINY ➑️


The Evans laminated heads may help. Have you tried the damping rings?

It sometimes helps to tune the drums down.

Also - don't make any final judgements until you hear the whole mix. What sounds too resonant on its own ends up being the glue that holds a mix together.




-tINY

I agree there ! you may want to leave it be and use a transient shaper to tame the sustain in the mix if its 2 much ....
i sometimes use the moongel dampners, even some old school napkins folded up to thickness of choice with a little painters tape...
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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imloggedin's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Try an evans ec2 on top
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by superburtm ➑️
also back the mics away...
I 2nd this . I would suggest to alter you mic position a bit, the more the mic is facing inward over the rim the more resonance it's going to pick up.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
This may sound crazy, but once you have it tuned up (top and bottom pitched together) try completely loosening one of the top lugs. has helped tame some resonant floor toms.
(There's a custom drum maker, Nodar Rode, who markets this as a selling feature to a line of his drums that have a lug with a flip down luggage style latch so you can nest the drums for transport.)

And, moon gels. and raising the mics and aiming them more at the center of the drum.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
As far as damping goes, I have always had a love for RTom MoonGel.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
are they too ringy through the overheads? or just the tom mics? after you track edit (cut) all the bleed out of the tom mics, and then fade out so they resonate just as long as you want them too.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Addict
 
BlueSprocket's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy ➑️
If you haven't already done this, tune the top and bottom heads to the exact same pitch. This greatly reduces sustain without compromising impact and liveliness.
Huh? If the two heads are tuned to the same pitch then they will vibrate sympathetically. It also sounds like you're tuning the drums so that you're matching the resonant frequency of the shells. Which often sounds best acoustically.

I would try a somehwhat different mic position. Or as some have mentioned, a tool like an Transient Designer or a nice Gate at mix will work well for you. The nice thing about having the sustain in the recording, is if you want it later, you have it.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
firby's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This is about the best information here I think. This is the typical 80's dead tom trick that was often coupled with evans hydraulic heads. If you do that with evans hydraulic heads you will lose so much sustain on those toms that you will want it back. Personally, in this age I think it is better to back the close mics off and use gates. The software gates with lookahead are nice.

I have found that the bleed works for me more often than not. If you are going after that 70's super dry sound in a recording lay thin towels over the toms.

If you wish to address this in the tuning of the toms tune the bottom head ever so slightly higher in pitch than the top head. You will have to take the tom off and deaden each side in your lap to get it close. I don't like this sound but it may be the staccato sound you are going for. If you want the tom to ring for days tune the bottom head just barely lower in pitch than the top head, like a concert bass drum.

When I say just barely I am talking about pitches less than 1/2 step from each other.

Listen to the drums as you play them without the cans on ... in the room. Do the toms have to much ring then ? If that is not the case then work on your mic placement. Also listen to determine if the ring is a harmonic of the fundamental or if it is the fundamental tone itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j2dafo ➑️
This may sound crazy, but once you have it tuned up (top and bottom pitched together) try completely loosening one of the top lugs. has helped tame some resonant floor toms.
(There's a custom drum maker, Nodar Rode, who markets this as a selling feature to a line of his drums that have a lug with a flip down luggage style latch so you can nest the drums for transport.)

And, moon gels. and raising the mics and aiming them more at the center of the drum.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Nut
 
Dav Iridium's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Try this. Get a whole bunch of cotton wool buds and drop them inside your toms. Start with 5 or 6. Tune your top head back up to pitch and listen as the overtones get magically dampened by the bouncing buds! It's like an organic gate.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy ➑️
If you haven't already done this, tune the top and bottom heads to the exact same pitch. This greatly reduces sustain without compromising impact and liveliness.
Really? I find the opposite. Typically I find that heads tuned in unison sustain longer because the heads don't fight each other.

For jazzier stuff I tune heads in unison for a more ringing, harmonic tone, and in rock I detune one head a bit to give more thud.

Maybe it's just the kits and heads I've worked with.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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softwareguy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy View Post
If you haven't already done this, tune the top and bottom heads to the exact same pitch. This greatly reduces sustain without compromising impact and liveliness.


BlueSprocket said:
Quote:
Huh? If the two heads are tuned to the same pitch then they will vibrate sympathetically.
Wow. I was so sure you were wrong, but I went back and checked out the toms that I had recently tuned like this. They were close to being in tune with one another, but, as someone else had suggested, the reso heads were tuned a little bit higher, in my case I would say a little less than 1/2 step. I guess I got them close and then tightened the reso until it "felt" right for a tight sound.

Thanks for pointing this out, I guess ya learn something every day.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
in this day and age with DAWs my method mentioned will be better than gates any day of the week.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRFProductions ➑️
As far as damping goes, I have always had a love for RTom MoonGel.
+1, best solution heard till today. solid smack, nice tone
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy ➑️
If you haven't already done this, tune the top and bottom heads to the exact same pitch. This greatly reduces sustain without compromising impact and liveliness.
Sorry, but I can't agree with this. In fat the opposite is true. Both heads tuned to the same pitch will enhance sustain as they will resonate sympathetically.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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dubrichie's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
i like to wrap jumpers / sweaters and such around the drums.

tie the arms in a knot to keep them in place.

it can work wonders and gives you very flexible dampening - you can use lighter or heavier, hang them higher or lower, use more than one per drum, etc.

only affects the resonance, not really the tone and none of the feel of playing the drums like putting towels on the skins does.

looks groovy, keeps your drums warm in winter, cheap and fun.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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softwareguy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect ➑️
Sorry, but I can't agree with this. In fat the opposite is true. Both heads tuned to the same pitch will enhance sustain as they will resonate sympathetically.
Agreed. I actually made this correction above in response to BlueSprocket. I should have had my coffee this morning, and this may prove to be a long and difficult thread for me!
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Addict
 
BlueSprocket's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy ➑️
Agreed. I actually made this correction above in response to BlueSprocket. I should have had my coffee this morning, and this may prove to be a long and difficult thread for me!
Hey man, its all good. We all do it from time to time. But yes, tuning the bottom head slightly tighter will in fact cause the drum to become "punchier". So you were right on there.
Old 22nd January 2009
  #26
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
First off, thanks for all the responses. Looks like I've got some
experimenting to do (tuning up, tuning down, micing, heads,
sweaters, and cotton balls!)

As for the sound I'm going for - The best word to describe it would
be dry, but not dull - "smack", not "doom".

I'm currently using ambassadors on the bottom, tuned higher than
the top.

Thanks again.
Old 22nd January 2009
  #27
Lives for gear
 
bigbone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkcraft ➑️
I'm wondering if anyone here can offer an suggestions on the
best way to reduce resonance in toms when tracking. I record with a
DW kit, which I carefully tune to eliminate "ringing" overtones, but
I still end up with too much sustain. Ultimately I end up cranking
up 4k in the mix to get more "smack" and ducking the lows and
low mids to reduce the long sustain. I've tried various amounts
of dampening on the heads, but that ends up dulling the sound.
I know that DW tends to be more resonant than other kits, but
I've got to believe this can be solved without selling my drums.

So I'm wondering what can be done in terms of tuning, head selection
or mic selection to help this. I currently use emporer clear heads
and MD421 mics on the toms (with KM184 overheads).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Is there too much sustain when you listen in context of the song, this could be normal to have too much sustain in solo, but in the context of the song you will not ear it, and a little trick, for your floor tom, turn around one of the leg upside down, that will ''choke '' just the right amound........
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #28
70% Coffee, 30% Beer
 
Doc Mixwell's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueSprocket ➑️
I would try a somehwhat different mic position. Or as some have mentioned, a tool like an Transient Designer or a nice Gate at mix will work well for you. The nice thing about having the sustain in the recording, is if you want it later, you have it.
+1kHz
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
cowrange's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have a DW kit and I use Clear Emperors on the top and ambassadors on the bottom. For the floor, I put two full moongels on the bottom head at noon and 9 o'clock maybe an inch from the rim. On top, I cut the moongel in half lengthwise and either put one or two of the strips on top depending. I find putting most of the deading on the bottom allows the high end to come off the top of the drum but can significantly reduce the sustain in a pleasing way. With 421's I will roll off the low end one click for the rack toms. Other than that, I do manual gating to get the envelope just right. Also tuning the batter head a half step lower than the bottom will help a lot.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Addict
 
Max The Dog's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you tune those DWs a good bit higher than the note that John Good has printed on the inside of the shell you can get them to crack real nice. That will cause them to resonate less. They are made to have tons of sustain. being perfectly round and having perfect bearing edges. I don't think you want to mess with muffling them, necessarily. Tune them up pretty high and they will sound like Gretchs, sweet, maybe even a bit like Charlie Watts. Great choice of drums.

Last edited by Max The Dog; 22nd January 2009 at 05:47 AM.. Reason: just checking
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