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Toms too resonant
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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rackdude's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quick compression release with some tape on the head.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
no don't use compression...all the suggestions are good ones....I find tuning the drums lower can help, but I have to say you really should consider different drums..IMO DW are some of the worst drums out there for recording...yes I know you should be able to make them work, but if you fighting them that much, perhaps you should consider it's the wrong kit.

Nick
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Addict
 
usefullidiot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan ➑️
I think head choices are vastly over-rated. They will not change a DW into a Gretch.
I reckon Clear Emperors are exactly right. Plenty of tone, and smack.
I don't damp mine at all. They may sound ringy in solo but it is a balance thing. If you damp you also lose the wanted clarity. What are the bottom heads? Clear Ambassadors?- I tune mine to slightly below the top. Maybe a semitone. That MoonGel seems good, try it in or near the centre of the underside heads. That might deaden or shorten the fundamental.
You could try this- find the low fundamental tone and suck it out a little with a parametric eq.
Good Luck, DD

i agree, dont sell your drums DW is known for the sound i think your trying to achieve...definatly try clear emperors or pinstripe...Remo makes the best heads for drums hands down....trust me.


try tuning the resonant head up quite high in comparison to the batter...i,e at least a perfect 5th and see how you go...try gating the toms with something decent...i like the waves channel strip gate (SSL) as this can add alot of snap and attack to the toms...

You dont need to sell you kit just try stuff.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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usefullidiot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
no don't use compression...all the suggestions are good ones....I find tuning the drums lower can help, but I have to say you really should consider different drums..IMO DW are some of the worst drums out there for recording...yes I know you should be able to make them work, but if you fighting them that much, perhaps you should consider it's the wrong kit.

Nick

DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS DUDE.

Go look at drummerworld.com at some DW dudes like teddy campbell etc and listen...I have used DW and it sounds great, premier great, pearl great all drums have different qualities just get to know them...
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
For more attack and less resonance, I would start by tuning the top head down fairly low and tuning the bottom head a bit higher. That's been my experience, anyway.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by usefullidiot ➑️
i agree, dont sell your drums DW is known for the sound i think your trying to achieve...definatly try clear emperors or pinstripe...Remo makes the best heads for drums hands down....trust me.


try tuning the resonant head up quite high in comparison to the batter...i,e at least a perfect 5th and see how you go...try gating the toms with something decent...i like the waves channel strip gate (SSL) as this can add alot of snap and attack to the toms...

You dont need to sell you kit just try stuff.

if they were the drum sounds he was trying to achieve, he would be close to achieving them...what's the harm in grabbing a rack tom from a buddy or a music store and A/Bing then...you'd be surprised how much changing skins doesn't matter sometimes...I find that gives it a different eq curve (for lack of a better term)
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by usefullidiot ➑️
DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS DUDE.

Go look at drummerworld.com
I've made a very valid suggestion...I've recorded/mixed lots of drumkits, mixed tons of kits live and played many many kits in many different situations....I know drums...not everything...but enough to make a polite suggestion...like I said , A/B with another make...my guess is he's not diggin it 'cause it's the wrong kit...your comment is not cool...BTW drummerworld.com doesn't mean f**k all when trying to capture the sound you envision in your head..in fact it doesn't mean f**k all at all.

Nick
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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bigbone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
I've made a very valid suggestion...I've recorded/mixed lots of drumkits, mixed tons of kits live and played many many kits in many different situations....I know drums...
Nick

If you said that DW are the worst drum...... you don't know drums......
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Addict
 
usefullidiot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
I've made a very valid suggestion...I've recorded/mixed lots of drumkits, mixed tons of kits live and played many many kits in many different situations....I know drums...not everything...but enough to make a polite suggestion...like I said , A/B with another make...my guess is he's not diggin it 'cause it's the wrong kit...your comment is not cool...BTW drummerworld.com doesn't mean f**k all when trying to capture the sound you envision in your head..in fact it doesn't mean f**k all at all.

Nick

I was just making the point that making blanket general statements doesnt help anyone...DW is used by alot of great drummers and if you do to drummerworld you can hear that DW can and does sound fine....you dont need to get pissy...saying that DW records **** is just a dumb statement and shouldnt be listened too its like saying you cant get a tele to sound good....DW has its sound ( which by the way I dont like) but they still sound good and record fine.

Josh freese is one of the most in demand session drummers he plays DW and he and his producers dont seem to mind the results...telling some dude to sell a $4000 kit is dumb when he is just asking for tips ...sorry
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone ➑️
If you said that DW are the worst drum...... you don't know drums......
yes I do...I like playing DW sometimes...I do not like mixing them live...I do not like recording them..there are good reasons for this......but you know everything then don't you?


one more time...you have to compare in order to make an informed decision about a sound...any sound really...just because you paid a lot of money for them and buddy from Dave Matthews band plays them doesn't mean there are right for your project...it may very well be that he has the perfect toms, but he just needs to back those 421's off an inch or slap some moon gel on them......but I doubt it...with good reason...and I'm talking about it, because I feel it's important...you can just keep passing judgement or be helpful and offer up some of your experience.

Nick
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by usefullidiot ➑️
I was just making the point that making blanket general statements doesnt help anyone...DW is used by alot of great drummers and if you do to drummerworld you can hear that DW can and does sound fine....you dont need to get pissy...saying that DW records **** is just a dumb statement and shouldnt be listened too its like saying you cant get a tele to sound good....DW has its sound ( which by the way I dont like) but they still sound good and record fine.

Josh freese is one of the most in demand session drummers he plays DW and he and his producers dont seem to mind the results...telling some dude to sell a $4000 kit is dumb when he is just asking for tips ...sorry

Ok enough bull**** already .....I said "IMO" and "perhaps you should consider..."...you're just an ass aren't you?
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Addict
 
usefullidiot's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
IMO DW are some of the worst drums out there for recording...
Nick

Hey its ok, If in you opinion you think that DW is "some of the worst drums out there for recording " then this dude should ignore your opinion cause it proves that you dont know anything about drums....

BTW if you record and do sound for jazz groups i take back everything cause DW is good for everything but jazz...


peace.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
There is nothing wrong with DW kit's for recording, or for that matter kit's made by any of the top manufacturers, they all have many good pro's playing them and getting great sound. Correct tunning, good heads, and a little bit of judicious damping should sort any kit out. For recording you might want to consider gating, however this isn't usually necessary if the above items are addressed properly.

The only time in recent memory I've had to use gates on toms was a live gig where the drummer turned up with a new kit that was badly tunned and there wasn't enough time (and the guy didn't know how to tune them properly) to go through it before the show. I used gates to control the ring (successfully in this case) but I would have rather had another hour to get them right.

Tunning the lower head to the note of the top head or below increases sustain, tunning the lower head higher reduces sustain as a rule.

Working with a DW kit, if the drummer is good, should be a dream, enjoy it, good luck!

Regards


Roland
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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RockManDan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
i think someone may have mentioned it earlier, but my favorite solution for getting rid of annoying ring without changing the sound of the drums is surgical eqing. all the other methods tend to have bad side effects. Use a heavy gate and you'll get weird cymbal artifacts that come and go(unless teh cymbals are really high up...a rare luxury). plus i kind of like the bleed into the tom mics and usually it helps glue everything together. but gating them and eqing them with a lot of mids to get them to punch through just makes it weird when theres a fill surrounded by crashes.

same thing with stripping everythign thats not a hit. can be done, but for some styles its too labor intensive and not necessarily practical if theres lots of dynamics.

like many have said, physical dampening can kill the pure natural resonance and attack of teh drum. the technique i always come back to is let the drum breathe like it wants to, 4 times out of 5 the ring will be masked by the rest of the mix anyway, but it its still not good, or its very musical and conflicting with the notes of the song, then solo the track, take a software eq with teh narrowest Q possible, and sweep around with like 15-18db of gain until you hear that ring go PIIINGGG right out of the speakers. This is a good start for where to cut, so turn that 18db gain into 18db cut, and most of the times that works wonders. Vary the amount of cut for adjustment of sustain depending on the mix. Also, play around with 1/2x and 2x multiples of that frequency to find which rings are more fundamental or harmonic. Sometimes cutting more harmonic rather than fundamental keeps more body and less ring. sometimes the opposite is true. depends on teh drum and the mix.

furthermore, you may be experiencing ring from other drums, such as sympathetic ring from the kick drum into the tom tracks (not a problem if the toms are seperately suspended, but again...a rare luxury), in which case you have to cut teh kick drums frequency out of the tom surgically. This is pretty non-invasive because its not the natural resonance of the tom that you're cutting. Also, depending on how you're micing the kick, it too could be picking up some odd tom rings, and cutting those out will probably not interfere with the kick's natural resonance.

basically IMO a lot of the typical solutions to tom ring tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. you have to isolate exactly what you don't want, which is usually just a ring that spans a pretty narrow spectrum, so in most cases theres no need to go all ballistic with muffling and gating which to my ears and experience tend to get rid of things you want as well, like the body of the tone, or consistent(yet workable) amounts of cymbal bleed, or subtle dynamic rolls that would sound really bad with a gate.

IMO of course...no hard and fast rules, sometimes gating/muffling can work wonders, especially with cheap drums, in which case you do whatever you have to to get good results, rules be damned.

YMMV
-Dan

EDIT: forgot to add that upward compression/expansion/very light gating can also work like gangbusters when combined with the above technique. it can minimize the bleed without just chopping it off. transient designer plugs also work great for giving a big SOCK in the face without making it sound all manipulated.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by softwareguy ➑️
Agreed. I actually made this correction above in response to BlueSprocket. I should have had my coffee this morning, and this may prove to be a long and difficult thread for me!
I responded to the post as I read it. After I replied I saw your correction. Its all good.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Moongel.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
I've made a very valid suggestion...I've recorded/mixed lots of drumkits, mixed tons of kits live and played many many kits in many different situations....I know drums...not everything...but enough to make a polite suggestion...like I said , A/B with another make...my guess is he's not diggin it 'cause it's the wrong kit...your comment is not cool...BTW drummerworld.com doesn't mean f**k all when trying to capture the sound you envision in your head..in fact it doesn't mean f**k all at all.

Nick
Valid perhaps, but shared by damn few. DW makes damn fine drums used by any number of top level professionals through weekend warriors. Without knowing what you consider to be a good drum sound I can't comment further. That said, to suggest that drum heads don't matter does make one question your judgement on these matters
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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Norman Lindsey's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
gaffa tape !

or use thin damp English tea towels . ( Ringo's trick ) .
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #49
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bigbone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockManDan ➑️
i think someone may have mentioned it earlier, but my favorite solution for getting rid of annoying ring without changing the sound of the drums is surgical eqing. all the other methods tend to have bad side effects. Use a heavy gate and you'll get weird cymbal artifacts that come and go(unless teh cymbals are really high up...a rare luxury). plus i kind of like the bleed into the tom mics and usually it helps glue everything together. but gating them and eqing them with a lot of mids to get them to punch through just makes it weird when theres a fill surrounded by crashes.

same thing with stripping everythign thats not a hit. can be done, but for some styles its too labor intensive and not necessarily practical if theres lots of dynamics.

like many have said, physical dampening can kill the pure natural resonance and attack of teh drum. the technique i always come back to is let the drum breathe like it wants to, 4 times out of 5 the ring will be masked by the rest of the mix anyway, but it its still not good, or its very musical and conflicting with the notes of the song, then solo the track, take a software eq with teh narrowest Q possible, and sweep around with like 15-18db of gain until you hear that ring go PIIINGGG right out of the speakers. This is a good start for where to cut, so turn that 18db gain into 18db cut, and most of the times that works wonders. Vary the amount of cut for adjustment of sustain depending on the mix. Also, play around with 1/2x and 2x multiples of that frequency to find which rings are more fundamental or harmonic. Sometimes cutting more harmonic rather than fundamental keeps more body and less ring. sometimes the opposite is true. depends on teh drum and the mix.

furthermore, you may be experiencing ring from other drums, such as sympathetic ring from the kick drum into the tom tracks (not a problem if the toms are seperately suspended, but again...a rare luxury), in which case you have to cut teh kick drums frequency out of the tom surgically. This is pretty non-invasive because its not the natural resonance of the tom that you're cutting. Also, depending on how you're micing the kick, it too could be picking up some odd tom rings, and cutting those out will probably not interfere with the kick's natural resonance.

basically IMO a lot of the typical solutions to tom ring tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater. you have to isolate exactly what you don't want, which is usually just a ring that spans a pretty narrow spectrum, so in most cases theres no need to go all ballistic with muffling and gating which to my ears and experience tend to get rid of things you want as well, like the body of the tone, or consistent(yet workable) amounts of cymbal bleed, or subtle dynamic rolls that would sound really bad with a gate.

IMO of course...no hard and fast rules, sometimes gating/muffling can work wonders, especially with cheap drums, in which case you do whatever you have to to get good results, rules be damned.

YMMV
-Dan

EDIT: forgot to add that upward compression/expansion/very light gating can also work like gangbusters when combined with the above technique. it can minimize the bleed without just chopping it off. transient designer plugs also work great for giving a big SOCK in the face without making it sound all manipulated.

Great answer
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Addict
 
Max The Dog's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm sorry, brother, I don't want to be argumentative here, but, DWs are some of the best and easiest drums to record. First of all, they tune up beautifully, with no struggle, because the bearing edges are super straight. They hardware is designed to have minimal contact with the shells and is attached only at nodal points. DWs are made with the most attention to detail and the most strict quality control of all the major drum companies.

I own and record almost every brand of drum made and I can say from hands on experience that the DWs sound great, for the majority of musical styles, almost with any choice of tunings. I've had many top name drummers record on the kit and say "these are the best drums I've ever played". No exaggeration.

I don't think RockManDan ever said that he was "fighting them that much". He just wants to know how to make the toms sing less.

Saying that DWs are "the worst drums out there for recording is a bit ignorant. Kind of like saying Fender guitars don't sound good or BMWs don't drive well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nickynicknick ➑️
no don't use compression...all the suggestions are good ones....I find tuning the drums lower can help, but I have to say you really should consider different drums..IMO DW are some of the worst drums out there for recording...yes I know you should be able to make them work, but if you fighting them that much, perhaps you should consider it's the wrong kit.

Nick
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
There are lot's of perfectly good methods stated in the thread so far.
they will pretty much all work.
For me personally, I don't like the sound of toms that ring too long, and I like to use different heads and different pitches for different timbres. So I most often use a little gaffa tape.
I admit I almost always tune the bottom (resonant) head above the top (batter). Then I apply as little tape as possible (usually to the top head) to roll off the slightest amount of sustain.
I've never experienced a loss of clarity or smack/punch when using tape.
It's cheap and super flexible as you can even adjust/move it between takes.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #52
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Well of course it's my opinion and I expect disagreement...to question my judgement is rude and stupid...maybe my semantics aren't right let me try and rephrase...for what I'm usually going for, DW's don't work very well...to make a blanket suggestion that DW are great for recording is a lot more ridiculous...because no drum works for every situation...I find them very generic sounding and lacking character and depth, although I agree that it's very easy to tune them up and get them sounding good...I'm talking about getting appropriate sounds for the given situation and for me DW never works...If its hard to get your head around that..cool...but the advice for the OP to try a different tom is very solid advice...like when you throw a 57 in front of a cab and you don't like the way it sounds, you should try a couple other mics first before you start digging into eq's....

....and for the record my advice was first to try detuning a bit and backing off the mics and I suggested that changing the skin IMO doesn't impact as much as you might think...that's all good stuff guys...you gotta get over yourselves...I like expensive gear and inexpensive gear...trying to make something work just because everybody says it should work is counter productive when recording...I've done this many times/wasted many hours...just trying to help the OP be productive....sue me

Nick
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max The Dog ➑️

Saying that DWs are "the worst drums out there for recording is a bit ignorant. Kind of like saying Fender guitars don't sound good or BMWs don't drive well.

So you're saying that DW's have a classic sound and been at the heart of classic recordings for decades and are the instrument of choice for some of the greatest drummers ever....(like fender guitars to legendary guitar players)....and you're calling me ignorant.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #54
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bigbone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Like it or not DW drums are like Gretsch and ludwig use to be in the 70....
they are the ""new vintage '' drums, you see them in all the major studio,
and the sound amazing......
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #55
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Hammer Mark's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'd recommend Remo clear pinstripes for top heads (surprised not to see them mentioned yet). Tune them just tight enough for playability and dampen them with moon gel and/or zero rings. If you still get more sustain then you want, Matt W's fade suggestion is bang on. Leave only as much tom as you need then apply the same fade time to all audio segments. If you really need the bleed, then you'll have to get exactly the sound you want during tracking, but that much dampening could affect playability.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Head
 
Jschulze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
When I tune my toms I like to tune the resonant head a perfect 4th up from the batter head. It gives it a nice decending note when tuned high and a nice thuddy sort of airy tone when tuned very low.

I don't know the specific reasoning for this tuning, but when I was a fledgling drum tech another much more acomplished fellow on the same tour taught me few tricks including the perfect 4th tuning (thanks kenny). Anyway, the heads should play "Here Comes the Bride" when you tap the batter head once and the reso three time. Make sure to muffle the opposite head when trying this.

I like to use Evans G2 coated for the batter and G1 Clear for the reso. I know you said you were using clear emperor heads, but maybe you could use Evans EC2 Clear heads for the batter. I used them for a while and really like them, I've since changed to G2 Coated for a different sound. Again moongels are little blobs of tom magic.

I usually bring the batter head up to the point where it just makes a distinct note and then bring the reso head up a perfect 4th from there. If you're looking for a thuddy sound, then you're there, otherwise start bringing up the entire drum a bit (1/8 lug turn) at a time and you'll start to bring the drum into different areas where it begins to open up a bit more. Every time you raise the entire drum, make sure the heads are in tune with themselves (hardest part...moongels will help).

Another great tip I received is to take care when placing moongels. Make sure they are clean and not full of lint and sawdust, they will stick much better and be more effective. Also before you just slap it on anywhere, hit the drum while lighting moving your finger around the perimeter of the drum until you find the place that most effectivly kills the ringing. I usually find that the area between the lugs is the most effective area. Also I tend to like triple flanged hoops on better than cast, except on really crackin snares.

I used this tuning technique on several drum sets...DW, Tama, Noble & Cooley, C&C, SJC, FVF, Pearl, Mapex...all with great results. I don't claim to be an expert at any of this, but I can make a drumset sound decent. Also on large floor toms (16x16, 16x18) I like to place a moongel on the inside of the reso head. I had a heck of a time getting an 18" floor tom to sound good until I tried this and it made a world of difference. Also when you put on new heads, make sure to keep even tesnion right from the start. I've found that heads that aren't seated and stretched evenly when they are first put on are damn near impossible to get sounding good. I like to use two adjacent drum keys and tune the drum up slowly (1/4 turns) until it's tuned pretty high. I then press firmly and evenly to stretch the head a bit, even out all the lugs, and repeat the process until the head seems to be holding it's tuning. I then evenly drop the head down and start the process I decribed earlier. On a side note, I've found that Noble & Cooley drums hold their tuning amazingly well.

Enough of my rambling...hope something here helps a little bit.

Later,
Jordan
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #57
Gear Head
 
Jschulze's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Another thing to try is to make sure the toms do not ring sympathetically from other drums...or that they at least ring nicely with each other.

Depending on the sound I'm going for I'll either start with biggest or smallest tom. Biggest if I'm going for a low thuddy sound, highest if I'm going for a more singing open sound. I'll get the first drum sounding good and base the rest of the drums off that. I find that making sure the toms play well together goes a long way to making a drumset sound like a single cohesive instrument.

A tom can sound great by itself, but if it howls like a drunken hyena everytime you hit the kick drum, it's gonna make the entire recorded drumset sound like...well, a group of drunken hyenas.

Again...enough of my rambling...good luck.

Later,
Jordan
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #58
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deve's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There's no such thing as "toms too resonant". It's never enough if you ask me. Let them sing brother.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #59
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
use duck tape, i do this in my sessions, try getting some ducktape, the after about half an inch fold it and do that about 7 times, then get another piece of ducktape and use that to seal it to your tom heads, you may need to use more than one of those on a tom, but try it out, it works on my mapex and my pdp snare, they sound so much better, it really highlights the tones of the drum somehow.
good luck
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #60
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vernier's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Simple tweakable remedy . . .

...cut up a plastic Remo tone control ring into several lengths, from an inch, to four or five inches long. Then, while striking the tom, try the varioius sizes, one at a time. Presto! ..you found it. The tom is ready to record.
'
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