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"A bus is a bus"
Old 11th April 2003
  #31
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Lynn,

When I went to the 3D Audio site, and tried to check out the CD, I got the following error message when I hit "view details":

Quote:
No records found.

Error Information

Error Message: Field restriction
Error Code: -9960

Action: findall
Database: 3daudio.fp3
Table/Layout: CartOK3
Response: /store/field:fileCartResult3

go: begins with "cart.lasso"
prod: begins with "006"
prodName: begins with "Awesome DAWSUM Sampler"
qty: begins with "1"

Logical Operator: and

Client Address: 69.3.100.109
Client IP: 69.3.100.109
Client Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)
Server Date: Thursday, April 10, 2003
Server Time: 9:08:12 PM
Is there something wrong with the site, or am I doing something wrong?
Old 11th April 2003
  #32
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Fuston
Tantalizing? . . . I think what is tantalizing about this project is the ability to put a digital myth to rest once and for all. Or maybe we can change it from myth to fact.
That's all I meant in my choice of that word ... the subject matter itself is really pretty juicy, and I'm very eager to hear the disc. I didn't mean to imply that you were being naughty or pimpy

Quote:
just catch me at a weak moment and say "Do you like A or B better?"
Ok, truth-syrum is on me at your favorite tavern next time I'm in the greater Nashville area. heh

Best regards,
-dave
Old 11th April 2003
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Thrillfactor & others.
You emphasise that some styles are better mixed in the box.
I'm doing mostly hip hop would you recommend the sbm-2 for that sort of thing? You know, deep punchy bass, cracking snares etc.
Do you think it would make a significant difference for me over mixing in protools in this regard?

Thanks
Nate
Old 11th April 2003
  #34
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by dave-G
That's all I meant in my choice of that word ... the subject matter itself is really pretty juicy, and I'm very eager to hear the disc. I didn't mean to imply that you were being naughty or pimpy

Ok, truth-syrum is on me at your favorite tavern next time I'm in the greater Nashville area. heh

Best regards,
-dave
Or catch me at TapeOpCon in Portland in May. I'll be there and the juicy stories will be flowing freely, I'm sure.

Hey, I don't mind being tantalizing, and I like my steaks juicy. Maybe we can share stories over a big juicy steak.
Old 11th April 2003
  #35
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mdbeh
Hey Lynn,

When I went to the 3D Audio site, and tried to check out the CD, I got the following error message when I hit "view details":

Is there something wrong with the site, or am I doing something wrong?


Ahhh. The joys of internet commerce.

Yes, indeed there was a problem temporarily after I sent out that email to notify people it was in the store. Darn. It has been remedied now. I just ordered a copy for myself and it works fine. So please try again and pardon the inconvenience. I know how much fun it is entering all that stuff twice. }:-(

I just got confirmation that I'll have product, all shrinkwrapped and everything, ready to go in the mail on Tuesday. The invoices for the orders to date are already sleeved and ready to go.
Old 11th April 2003
  #36
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Fuston
Or catch me at TapeOpCon in Portland in May. I'll be there and the juicy stories will be flowing freely, I'm sure.

Hey, I don't mind being tantalizing, and I like my steaks juicy. Maybe we can share stories over a big juicy steak.
You're killin' me!!! I really wish I could go to TapeOpCon this year, but I'm travelling a lot in the early part of May between California, Florida and Germany, and my wife is due in June with the critter in my new Avatar ... So, the end of May is no-go-travel time.. Don't wanna risk missing the birth of my girl. (gotta make sure she doesn't look like the mailman)

I'll take a raincheck, perhaps at AES if I don't make my way into any TN steakhouses anytime sooner. Looking forward to hearing the disc in the meantime.

-dave
Old 11th April 2003
  #37
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by dave-G
You're killin' me!!! I really wish I could go to TapeOpCon this year, but I'm travelling a lot in the early part of May between California, Florida and Germany, and my wife is due in June with the critter in my new Avatar ... So, the end of May is no-go-travel time.. Don't wanna risk missing the birth of my girl. (gotta make sure she doesn't look like the mailman)
Congratulations! What an exciting time. As someone who's been there before, drink in every minute of it. It's an experience unlike any other. Don't let anything rob you of a single minute of it.

And I can do steak and stories any time. Believe me.
Old 11th April 2003
  #38
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by dave-G
my wife is due in June with the critter in my new Avatar ...
she looks just like you... you and the wife will have to bring her up to the mountains in the fall. we can go eat and drink and be merry. hopefully in a new house by then.
Old 11th April 2003
  #39
Lives for gear
 
oldgearguy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In my opinion, the summing bus issue is the biggest hurdle facing digital developers all over the place, not just in DAWs. There's been a long development history in the analog world and analog signals can be summed together fairly painlessly (although different methodologies produce a different 'sound' to the summed signal). The digital world hasn't had the history yet to fully get it sussed out. In addition to DAWs, I can hear problems/overloads in hardware VA synths, softsynths, and anywhere else where more than one signal is digitally summed. Signal levels throughout the audio path seem to be more critical in digital than in analog.
Old 11th April 2003
  #40
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
she looks just like you... you and the wife will have to bring her up to the mountains in the fall. we can go eat and drink and be merry. hopefully in a new house by then.
First of all, she looks a LOT better than me! heh (I'm rooting for a strong showing from my wife's gene-pool!)

Second of all.. You can count on a visit up there this fall.. We also usually come up in the winter and do the Grove Park Inn on X-mas eve (er... uh.. jewish tradition).. Good luck with the new house business in the meantime.

And Lynn, thanks for the kind words -- I'm a very psyched pre-dad. Steak and stories sometime later this summer, perhaps.

-dave
Old 11th April 2003
  #41
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by dave-G
Second of all.. You can count on a visit up there this fall.. We also usually come up in the winter and do the Grove Park Inn on X-mas eve (er... uh.. jewish tradition)..
let me know if you are doing that again this year [although its quite a ways away now]. we are friends with the assistant to the CEO of grove park. we got HOOKED UP on our anniversary this year and she took us out to lunch there this week.
Old 11th April 2003
  #42
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by oldgearguy
In my opinion, the summing bus issue is the biggest hurdle facing digital developers all over the place, not just in DAWs. There's been a long development history in the analog world and analog signals can be summed together fairly painlessly (although different methodologies produce a different 'sound' to the summed signal). The digital world hasn't had the history yet to fully get it sussed out. In addition to DAWs, I can hear problems/overloads in hardware VA synths, softsynths, and anywhere else where more than one signal is digitally summed. Signal levels throughout the audio path seem to be more critical in digital than in analog.
I agree. This test has finally put some empirical evidence to what many have "thought" for a long time. I'm already in discussions with some designers, whose names you would recognize, about what can be done, maybe in terms of plugins, maybe in terms of hardware, to help us clear this hurdle.
Old 11th April 2003
  #43
Moderator
 
EveAnna Manley's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
You guys got it all wrong.... THIS is a BUS!
Old 11th April 2003
  #44
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
with assorted stems.....
Old 11th April 2003
  #45
Gear Guru
 
thethrillfactor's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by nd33
Hey Thrillfactor & others.
You emphasise that some styles are better mixed in the box.
I'm doing mostly hip hop would you recommend the sbm-2 for that sort of thing? You know, deep punchy bass, cracking snares etc.
Do you think it would make a significant difference for me over mixing in protools in this regard?

Thanks
Nate
Yes.

Hip hop and rnb sounds great through the box.

The depth of the bass alone is worth it.

You can really hit it hard and it won't break up.

If you can get your hands on a good half inch to mix to even better.

Peace.
Old 11th April 2003
  #46
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by oldgearguy
I can hear problemswhere more than one signal is digitally summed.
Ah, but what is the sound of one signal summing?

-R
Old 13th April 2003
  #47
SC
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hey, Renie.

I certainly don't mind you re-printing my original post, in fact it got a much better response here than on the DUC, but next time send me an email so I know about it!

I'm also looking foward to Lynn's test, although there will still be variables (and hence continued controversy) no matter how carefully he did it:

1: The level of the full mix hitting the 2-bus when mixing in the box: forget what Digi claims, this still matters)

2: The quality of the converters, obviously.

3: The type of audio actually recorded. Tracks with lots of natural ambience, m-s a-b and the like, will probably show differences more clearly than pop vocals and DI bass. Also, a mix that is naturally bass-heavy or bass-shy might favor one mix method over another. since we can't hear the original tracks, this creates a bit of a dilemma.

4: How many tracks were allocated to each stem? -This was the basis of my original quesion. That question still remains: If a bus is a bus is a bus, then it's just a headroom issue.

Jules, you differentiate between busses and auxes in Protools. I don't get it. I run all my mixes through a stereo aux before it gets to the master fader. This shows my level going into the final summing section, even if plugins are on the 2-mix. If I defeat this aux, and send all tracks directly to the 1-2 summing buss, there is absolutely no change in the sound. Yes, I'm using HD, but I never heard a difference in my old Mix system either. If there had been a difference, I WOULD have heard it. Ask Klett sometime about how picky I am.

Besides, wouldn't you do stems simply by assigning groups of tracks to various outputs? Why would you even need to use auxes? -And hence, once again, isn't a bus a bus?
-------

I have no doubt that different DAWs do their summing differently, giving different audible results. However, I just don't see how there can be differences within the same DAW.
It don't make no sense.

Well, this is all hypothetical, aint it?

Lynn, bring on the cd!
Old 13th April 2003
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Speer

Great to see you!! Yes your right I should have mailed you, next time I won't be shy!!!!!



Old 13th April 2003
  #49
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
"Jules, you differentiate between busses and auxes in Protools. I don't get it. I run all my mixes through a stereo aux before it gets to the master fader. This shows my level going into the final summing section, even if plugins are on the 2-mix. If I defeat this aux, and send all tracks directly to the 1-2 summing buss, there is absolutely no change in the sound. Yes, I'm using HD, but I never heard a difference in my old Mix system either. If there had been a difference, I WOULD have heard it. Ask Klett sometime about how picky I am."

I find Auxes on the mix platiform to change the sound. Nika Aldrich has written about Auxes on his forum over on Pro Sound Web. Overal he recomends them to be avoided on the Mix systems if possible because of internal mixer math issues. So I avoid them as just one of the several digital operation superstitions I adhere to. I have heard opinion that this 'non problem' has now been fixed on the HD platform.

For example I experimented with adding plug ins PRIOR to the direct out stems feeding my Dangerous 2 Bus (tape simulators). To do this I had to set up Auxes that would feed those output stems, I discovered that JUST instancing these auxes accross my direct outs had a detrimental effect on the outputs to the D2B so I gave up on the exersize. Direct (interface) outs represent a purer path IMHO.

"Besides, wouldn't you do stems simply by assigning groups of tracks to various outputs? Why would you even need to use auxes?"

See above, there is no need for me to and I don't.

"-And hence, once again, isn't a bus a bus?"

Direct outputs to interfaces & Aux's

Two very different things IMHO.

Old 13th April 2003
  #50
Lives for gear
 
dave-G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
For example I experimented with adding plug ins PRIOR to the direct out stems feeding my Dangerous 2 Bus (tape simulators). To do this I had to set up Auxes that would feed those output stems, I discovered that JUST instancing these auxes accross my direct outs had a detrimental effect on the outputs to the D2B so I gave up on the exersize. Direct (interface) outs represent a purer path IMHO.
Jules, I understand your reasoning behind avoiding the Aux-faders .. however, in any instance where you send more than one track directly out of an interface-output pair (ie all drums to outs 3-4), you are actually using a 48-bit mixer, same as you would be if mixing "in the box" to a single output pair. In those cases, you lose nothing by putting up a Master Fader for that output pair, to make sure you're not clipping that submix bus, or to throw an insert or two across the stem before it goes to your D2B, if desired.

Have your cake and eat it too.

-dave
Old 13th April 2003
  #51
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Errrrr.... whoops . I think I meant master faders....

Gah!



I dunno, The master faders then, it sounded worse using them..

Sorry for the inaccurate report.



Old 13th April 2003
  #52
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by speerchucker
1: The level of the full mix hitting the 2-bus when mixing in the box: forget what Digi claims, this still matters)

2: The quality of the converters, obviously.

3: The type of audio actually recorded. Tracks with lots of natural ambience, m-s a-b and the like, will probably show differences more clearly than pop vocals and DI bass. Also, a mix that is naturally bass-heavy or bass-shy might favor one mix method over another. since we can't hear the original tracks, this creates a bit of a dilemma.

4: How many tracks were allocated to each stem? -This was the basis of my original quesion. That question still remains: If a bus is a bus is a bus, then it's just a headroom issue.

(snip)

Lynn, bring on the cd!
1) The levels on this exercise were conservative. Nothing ever hits 0. Not on individual tracks, not on the master.

2) The only converters you'll hear are on the analog-summed versions. The other 24 have no converters at all. Dig in, dig out.

3) You can order the original set of stems from me. 11 stereo pairs, grouped this way:

01_Bass_L.wav
02_Bass_R.wav
03_KickSn_L.wav
04_KickSn_R.wav
05_Drums_L.wav
06_Drums_R.wav
07_Piano_L.wav
08_Piano_R.wav
09_B3_L.wav
10_B3_R.wav
11_ElectricGtr_L.wav
12_ElectricGtr_R.wav
13_ElecPrc_L.wav
14_ElecPrc_R.wav
15_Perc_L.wav
16_Perc_R.wav
17_Horns_L.wav
18_Horns_R.wav
19_Choir_L.wav
20_Choir_R.wav
21_Reverb_L.wav
22_Reverb_R.wav

4) It depends on the stem. For bass, one track in mono to 1 & 2. Kick and snare, two mono tracks to 3 &4. Drums consisted of 6 tracks panned in stereo. Piano is only hard left and right. Same with B3, E/G, Elec Perc. Horns are three spot mics, then doubled. Choir is M/S with additional spot mics, tripled.

As far as bringing it on, they hit the post office on Tuesday. Depending on where you live, you could have it by Friday. You can order at http://sales.3daudioinc.com/store/catalog.lasso with a credit card, or you can send a check if you'd rather avoid internet commerce. Write me at [email protected] and I'll hold a copy for you and tell you where to send the check.
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