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Converter question
Old 20th March 2003
  #1
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Converter question

Here is my dillema. I am currently using Lucid 8824's in my setup. I want to upgrade for a record that I will be starting very soon. I like what I am hearing from the lucids but know that there is something better. I record at 48k and am not concerned at highter sample rates at the moment. I mainly record heavy stuff. Hardcore,metal...etc. I have considered a radar but have decided to get outboard AD's. On my list is Ad8000 SE, benchmark and mytek or other options. I would like some feedback from fellow sluts. I would love to audition all of these units and more but do not have the time. If anyone could even compare the lucid to others that would help as well. I would stay with them if I am not benifiting my sound by upgrading . My setup consists of 2 d8b consoles ,2 hdrs and a small HD rig. Lots of outboard including great river,api,hedd 192,distressors,fatso's,1176,etc. Need some advice.
Old 21st March 2003
  #2
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Perhaps an ArdSyncII wordclock might "up the game" of all your gear.

Do you use a house wordclock device? You have enough gear to warrant one.

Monitoring via a Benchmark DAC-1 I have on trial is rocking my world at present, I am looking forward to trying it during tracking, so far I have just made use of it on mixing & mastering.

Docktor Jules' prescription is:

ArdsyncII - (daily dosage)
DAC-1 - (3 times - tracking, mixing & mastering)
Apogee cards for the D8B

Old 21st March 2003
  #3
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks jules. I am using a genX6 to clock everything. The d8bs are clocked to that. I basically only use the d8b to moniter and mix. This record will probably be mixed in LA on an ssl. But my main concern right now is upgrading my converters. I just dont have the time to audition them. So I am leaning towards the 8000SE or the benchmark. But are they going to give me the extra quality that I need over the lucids? Or is it going to just be another flavor Like I think it is?
Old 21st March 2003
  #4
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Hmmm

I still think, MONITORING the session super accurately would be the best help to deliver kickin material for the mixdown session, so I still recomend DAC-1

Old 21st March 2003
  #5
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ZEUSS
Lots of outboard including hedd 192
The Lucids are quite good for the money, skip over the Apogee IMO because it's not a step up. I had a Rosetta for a couple of years, the SE is better, but for the price I personally think that a Mytek or Spider will get you great quality (Mytek already has a hell of a track record with the people using it). You already have a HEDD 192?? Do you mean you are in need of multichannel D/A, or you need multiple ADC of higher quality in comparison to the Lucid since the HEDD only gives you 2? For the price of a AD8000 SE (even used) you could get a Spider. I don't agree that a $1500 clock is going be the best stretch for your dollar. Better conversion will already have a better clock that you can distribute to the rest of your signal chain (you could use the HEDD now). BTW, what does a 2 channel D/A have to do with better conversion on the way in? If you are going to be mixing on an analog console, just monitor off the analog mix outs (or have we gotten to the point where we just arbitrarily insert A/D/A's in our path). Let the mastering guy worry about the great D/A monitoring path after you hand him the 1/2" reel.
Old 21st March 2003
  #6
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
" For the price of a AD8000 SE (even used) you could get a Spider."

I don't THINK SO!

tutt

Used SE price does not = new Spider price IMHO

Jules
Old 21st March 2003
  #7
Lives for gear
 
jeronimo's Avatar
yep... I think the SEs goes for around... 4k? It's a little under the 6K for the spider
Old 21st March 2003
  #8
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Nathan,
I am looking for some multi channel units. Most likely 2- 8 channel boxes. To compliment the hedd sinse its only 2 channels.Thanks for the opinion on the SE's. I do not want to upgrade to something that isnt a step up. If the lucids are on par with the SE's but have a different color then I will skip them. I want something that is a step above the lucids. I will still keep them but I want better. I will look at the myteks. And if anyone has heard the 8824's and has heard another 8 channel converter that was definately a step up give me your opinion. Thanks
Old 21st March 2003
  #9
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by ZEUSS
Nathan,
I am looking for some multi channel units. Most likely 2- 8 channel boxes. To compliment the hedd sinse its only 2 channels.Thanks for the opinion on the SE's. I do not want to upgrade to something that isnt a step up. If the lucids are on par with the SE's but have a different color then I will skip them.
I didn't say that...the SE's are better than the Lucid's IMO, but to justify the price of an AD8000 SE to get an upgrade in quality versus the others for half the price (Mytek) or twice the feature set (Crane Song Spider) is very "1997". Things have changed a lot in the last 5-6 years.


Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
" For the price of a AD8000 SE (even used) you could get a Spider."

I don't THINK SO!

tutt

Used SE price does not = new Spider price IMHO

Jules
tutt tutt

Did I say a NEW Spider? There are actually more used Spider's available than new at this moment. Don't assume that I necessarily meant new just because I sell new gear. It's up to the customer and their needs as to what they can afford. I'd still rather see him have a Crane Song than an SE, even if he pays $1000 for the Spider from a crack w.h.o.r.e. I buy used **** all the time....(vintage mics, reel to reels, consoles, vintage outboard, guitars, amps). As far as not knowing the used prices of a AD8000 SE, this was based on the last time I looked which was a while ago, not exactly shopping for an AD8000. Used prices are so variable anyway, haven't noticed that there is a MAP on used. Considering the AD8000 is a discontinued unit (at least according to Apogee themselves from my conversation 2 months ago), there is only one on ebay right now, it's not an SE, and it has 12 bids, I think it might be slim pickings. But like anything, I'm sure there is always a "deal" out there if that's even a worry or consideration. Not everybody cares about price, some people (myself included) just want it to arrive in one piece (and if it doesn't, get taken care of very quickly). But I think I'm stating the obvious here.

Old 22nd March 2003
  #10
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
all due respect

If you can find one, the 8000SE has more of the sound you're looking for as well as huge routing flexibility. I don't believe that Nate is an Apogee dealer but there are still some 8000SE's out there for a pretty reasonable price. Even the AD16-DA16 (and you would have 16 channels of conversion) combo is going to sound as good or better than the other boxes you've mentioned. As in all cases, proper clocking will improve everything.
cheers,
Chap
Old 22nd March 2003
  #11
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: all due respect

Quote:
Originally posted by chap
As in all cases, proper clocking will improve everything.
Considering that the DAC1 gives you proper clocking on playback, it makes sense to begin there before wasting money on what could easily be unnecessary clocking elsewhere. It's exactly like an analog tape deck, you've got to get playback aligned right before you can even begin to align record properly.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #12
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My point is that proper clocking (matched cable length, proper impedence, no daisy chaining)
will improve the whole room. Most good converters provide proper clocking on playback. When all these devices need to converse and when recording,
the clock rules. The Apogees provide the same as
the DAC1.
cheers,
chap
Old 22nd March 2003
  #13
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by chap
Most good converters provide proper clocking on playback. ... The Apogees provide the same as
the DAC1.
I have to seriously disagree with both of these points. The DAC1 that I won in the contest has just replaced around $3000 worth of clocking and anti-jitter treatment here.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #14
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
one man's meat....

That's why it's a forum. We get to disagree.
Is it the master clock for the whole studio?
I have at least 7 digital devices that need to be clocked to the same source.
That's why I'm excited about Big Ben which will do away with PLLs and replace them with adaptive loop filtering. This way, when I'm scoring, I switch the master to black burst and when I'm doing straight up music, I go with word. I suppose if the DAC is your only converter, you can pull that off but I've got all these other devices that need a boss (and it ain't me).
cheers Bob and have fun with your new box.
chap

PS- my Trak2 (great clock) is the master going to an Aardvark
distribution amp into all the other converters,
TC6000 etc....
Old 22nd March 2003
  #15
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: all due respect

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Considering that the DAC1 gives you proper clocking on playback, it makes sense to begin there before wasting money on what could easily be unnecessary clocking elsewhere. It's exactly like an analog tape deck, you've got to get playback aligned right before you can even begin to align record properly.
Bob, I agree with you, but I think the original poster is going to be monitoring off an all analog path, so I'm a little confused as to why a '2 bus' D/A even matters in this case?
Old 22nd March 2003
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for everyones help so far. I am not sure if some of you understand what I am looking for. I want to upgrade my lucid 8824's to something that will be a noticeable improvent in sound. I just don't have the time to audition all of the various 8 channel units.I already have a genx6 master clock for everything.I do like how the lucids sound but know that there must be an 8 channel converter that will be a step up from them. I need at least 16 channels for drum tracks and then I can use the hedd for the other stuff. I do not need something for monitering.I looked into the myteks and it looks like it might be the one. I also looked into the 8000SE's and the benchmarks. I just do not want to buy some converters that will not be a major improvement over the lucids. I will be tracking to Hard Disk recorders and then everything will be transfered to PT. I will be feeding the converters into one of the d8b's all digital for mults and other things. Then route to the machines and return to the 2nd d8b for monitering and playback. Then it will be mixed most likely on an ssl. So will the myteks be a huge step up in sound quality over the lucids? Or do you think the SE's will do the trick. I wish I could audition them all and make that determination my self. But sinse I can't I am looking to the slutzs for opinions. Alot of you have heard all of these units. The music will be very heavy distorted in your face. Thanks.
Old 22nd March 2003
  #17
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
howdy zeus

I live in CT and have 5 different converters including 2 8000SEs. If you're close enough you can stop by and check them out.

chap
Old 22nd March 2003
  #18
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Re: all due respect

Quote:
Originally posted by NathanEldred
I'm a little confused as to why a '2 bus' D/A even matters in this case?
It matters because you can't judge an A to D's clocking requirements without hearing the results without D to A jitter. Jitter frequencies combine to produce sideband frequencies which lead to favorable vs. unfavorable jitter signatures that are unique to a particular combination of clock, A to D and D to A. More jitter can actually sound better but it's an effect that goes away when you finally get to a CD player.
Old 23rd March 2003
  #19
Gear Nut
 
heartsoffire's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This is my opinion and I don't have NEAR the experience that most everyone has on this conference, but from what I understand, the converter discussion, starting with the Lucid's on up, is very subjective. You've got a Hedd, which gives you good conversion, how does your Lucid stack up to the Hedd? If you don't hear that big of a difference, then good chance you won't with most of the other converters.

Also, if you are looking to only track drums, and you feel the Hedd gives you a better top end, then track your OH through the HEDD and the rest through the Lucid. If you feel that HEDD gives you a tighter bottom end and that's what your looking for, then track those through the HEDD.

Frankly, if it was me, I'd get an excellent clock (Aardsync or Big Ben) and D/A monitoring (probably the D/A first). I'm not sure how the Lucid Gen6X compares to the Aardsync or Big Ben).

The 8824 is a pretty good device.

So, what Bob and Jules said!
Old 23rd March 2003
  #20
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Re: Re: all due respect

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
It matters because you can't judge an A to D's clocking requirements without hearing the results without D to A jitter. Jitter frequencies combine to produce sideband frequencies which lead to favorable vs. unfavorable jitter signatures that are unique to a particular combination of clock, A to D and D to A. More jitter can actually sound better but it's an effect that goes away when you finally get to a CD player.
Maybe I'm just missing something...it still doesn't make any sense. What difference does it make to the original poster if he is monitoring off the analog mix bus? All the jitter artifacts in the world will be revealed by that since it doesn't get any more jitter free than zero jitter from remaining analog. Are you saying he should monitor from the final output stages of the SSL into the D/A (and essentially be forced to go into an A/D in order to get into the D/A)? It sounds like an unecessary step in the signal chain. As I mentioned before shouldn't he just mix to reel to reel (this is what I'm assuming he is doing since it sounds a whole lot better) and let the mastering engineer worry about the conversion processes for 2 track stereo specifically? If he is mixing to digital, then that's a different issue...seems kind of silly though with the tools probably at hand.
Old 23rd March 2003
  #21
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
The D/A the the original poster listens to seems to be the D8B monitor section, so Bob O & I are rooting for a BETTER D/A... (DAC-1)

The theory beind this is, accurate listening of incoming signal might have better upgrade value than a costly but slight impovement of the A/D converters.

Thats what I would be happier with if I knew the project was to be passed on to a 'big hitter' mixer..

It's more about the ears!



D8B is a DIGITAL console right? So there aint no analog summing & 2 bus... Just Mackie D/A...
Old 23rd March 2003
  #22
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
I understand what you are saying about the monitering section. The main thing is I am used to what comes out of the moniters from the d8b's moniter section. I listen to all of my cd's the same way. My masterlink and tascam units both go in digitally and out the d8b to the moniters. At some point I might try a dac 1 to the moniters but for now I just want to upgrade my converters. From the research that I have done I am leaning toward the myteks. I downloaded the wav files from the site and compared the three files. I understand that my converters were not there for me to compare against. But there has to be an 8 channel converter that is an improvement over the ones that I have. If the myteks were sonically in the same league as the prism and DB techs then I think they would be an upgrade from lucids. The only way to tell for sure is to compare and try them. I understand that. I just wanted some advise from people that use brand X or Brand Y 8 channel converters especially compared to the 8824's if they have heard them. thanks.
Old 23rd March 2003
  #23
Gear Guru
 
NathanEldred's Avatar
 
7 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
D8B is a DIGITAL console right? So there aint no analog summing & 2 bus... Just Mackie D/A...
I didn't just come up with the analog question out of thin air. And yeah...I know all the theories and practicalities about better monitoring and less jitter. I know a D8B is a digital console, but he isn't going to mix on the D8B.

This is what the original poster said in the first couple of posts:

Quote:
Originally posted by ZEUSS
This record will probably be mixed in LA on an ssl.
Leads me to believe that the mix will be monitored through an analog signal....

I've heard the D/A on the D8B and it's not horrible. If he was mixing on it, yes something like the Benchmark would be a good idea. Since he's just tracking to the recorder and using the D8B to monitor with, that's not going to be as critical to the overall quality of the project as compared to better multichannel A/D since the D8B will be nowhere in the picture upon completion of the project, hence my original point and questioning.
Old 23rd March 2003
  #24
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Why not just 'rent in' some primo converters for this project, then send em back when you are done!


Old 23rd March 2003
  #25
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Renting is not what I intend to do. I want to upgrade my converters. Thats all. They will be used on many other projects. Jules,you have said it yourself that you have noticed a difference between your converters whether they are the prism or the hedd or the 8000's. I understand that they all have "colors". For example: I want to go from a presonus pre to a............ This is what I am trying to find out. I want to track thru something better than I already have. That is it. I am not concerned about mixdown at the moment. I need to go from sound to digital and I know that there are better 8 channel units than what I have. I just dont have time to audition every 8 channel converter under the sun. Nathan,chap and others you have been helpful. The myteks look like they would be an upgrade to my current set. That is the kind of info I was looking for. Thanks
Old 23rd March 2003
  #26
Lives for gear
 
cashewcupcake's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ok well I have the 8824 and a Mytek. Is Mytek AD/DA worth double the Lucid? I don't ****ing know! Well maybe I do. Is everything else in your studio tip top quality? Do you have good mics? If everything you use rocks, well then oh wait. It doesn't ****ing MATTER. The 8824 is GOOD. The Mytek is BETTER. Why are you freaking out about this?

Why don't you like your 8824?? That $2000+ you're dying to spend might be better spent on a few hours with a professional mixing engineer!
Old 23rd March 2003
  #27
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Sorry, dont mean to be deaf to your requirements!

Old 23rd March 2003
  #28
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Faeflora,
Thanks for the insight. I do like the 8824. I am not freaking out. It just seems like the question I asked is going into different topics. So I was just stating what I was asking for in the post. I figured that the more I explain the better I can get my question across and get advice. I am not trying to piss anyone off. Jules, I value your opinion highly as well as everyone else here. I have made alot of gear purchasing decisons just from the users of this forum. That is why I love this forum. I will post with my results when this project is done. Thanks for everyones help!
Old 24th March 2003
  #29
SC
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Zeuss, you wrote,

"If the myteks were sonically in the same league as the prism and DB techs then I think they would be an upgrade from lucids."

well, yeah, so why not go with Prism or DB TECH (Lavry) ? Those are both well-establish as top-dogs. If you really want to UP-grade, why mess around?

If you can't afford these, if the Mytek is your only affordable option and you don't want to rent, just buy the thing, do a blind A-B test, and sell the one that loses.

-And don't forget to let us all know what you find.
Old 24th March 2003
  #30
Lives for gear
 
jeronimo's Avatar
How does the HEDD compares to the 8824?
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