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PT summing again - this time w/files
Old 24th February 2003
  #1
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
PT summing again - this time w/files

Hello folks-
As I've mentioned several times, for a while now I've been running stems out of PT and summing them on my Studer board. After doing a number of tests I found that I preferred this to Digi bounces, although to my ears it is more or less noticable depending on the musical style.

After talking with a friend of mine about this, he built (with some design ideas from Dan at Great River) a 8 channel passive summing box that outputs a mic level signal which you then run into your preamp of choice for makeup gain.

So today I finally got around to running a series of tests:

- 8 channel PT submix through Studer board, then through the HEDD
- Digi master fader out through HEDD
- 8 channel PT submix through summing box into API 3124 preamp, then through the HEDD
- 8 channel PT submix through summing box into Great River MP2H preamp, then through the HEDD
- 8 channel PT submix through summing box into Telefunken V78, then through the HEDD

The files are named randomly and not in the above order!!!

In all cases I sent a test signal through to set the levels equally, the D/A was a Lucid, and the A/D was a HEDD and they all had the same amount of HEDD processing done at the A/D conversion. I'm sure it could have been done more scientifically, but so it goes...

I took the files and put them on a server where people can download them in a couple formats - 24 bit multi mono, 16 bit interleaved (Waves L2 used for bit reduction/dithering with no gain), and Mp3 (created from the 16 bit files).

For me there were definitely some surprises, in a couple directions, and one in particular sounds way better to me and again I was surprised which one it was.

To download them, go to :
http://209.98.250.65 and login with username gear and password slutz.

The files are seperated into folders. I'll leave these up for a day or so, but that's all I can really do. After that I'll let people know which was which.

I'd like to do some more tests with some other tracks, etc... when I have more time.

Let me know if you have any questions (or if there are problems downloading) and I'm curious to hear what people think!

Cheers!
Old 24th February 2003
  #2
Gear Nut
 
heartsoffire's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I just tried to go to the site and got a "cannot find server" message. I've got a DSL connection with Ameritech.
Old 24th February 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Same here. "Cannot find server" message.

BT
Old 24th February 2003
  #4
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
****! I'm on DSL too, and I thought I had figured out how to share files! I can get to it, but there must be something not letting it through the dsl router.

Anybody have anywhere else I can put this stuff? In the 3 different file formats it's about 370 megs...
Old 24th February 2003
  #5
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🎧 15 years
OK - it works now. My ISP made a change to the router for me...
Old 24th February 2003
  #6
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I just tried ... can log on ... select files ... but they won't download ?? ... stuck on getting file information for 5 minutes now ... I'll try again tonight when I get home
Old 24th February 2003
  #7
Gear Nut
 
heartsoffire's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It's working now. I just started downloading the first file. It's taking quite a bit of time (15 minutes for the first 16-bit file), but I think it'll be worth it.

Mark
Old 24th February 2003
  #8
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
I've set all filles @ 24 bit to download..

See if they are still going in 5 or so hours!

I have a 1 meg Cable connection.. whatever that means...

Old 24th February 2003
  #9
Gear Addict
 
CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well, I'm glad it's working now but sorry it's so slow! I'm just running one of those Mac Web Sharing things and maybe it only let's one person on at a time? I think I'm on a 256K DSL connection, but it seems like it should be faster than what you guys are getting. Anyway, let me know how things are working out.
Old 24th February 2003
  #10
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
I got kicked off!

I will try again when the USA is sleeping!

Old 24th February 2003
  #11
Gear Addict
 
CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I just had a couple more thoughts on this whole thing:

1. Maybe I should redo the tests without the HEDD DSP being added? I would normally do it, but it may skew peoples opinions a little since it is the "more betterizer"!

2. I could also run the same tests with more of a heavy guitar kind of tune. That style is where I especially notice the differences generally. The song I used was something I had loaded up (it's actually an old recording).

Also - I will have to turn off the file sharing from 3 - 8 pm CST time today as I have a session... I'll post when it's back online and let me know peoples thoughts on the above items.

Cheers
Old 25th February 2003
  #12
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
File sharing is back on again...
Old 25th February 2003
  #13
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm going to have to shut sharing down again for about an hour, and then it should be back on again around 2:30 CST.

Also, for the sake of everyone - if you're not on a DSL/cable modem connection or better - please stick to the MP3 files. That sucks I know, but otherwise it ties thing up for hours...

As people have probably noticed, I had to split out the 24 bit files into Left and Right folders and remove the ".L" and ".R" suffixes. It seemed like the server didn't like them and it may have been doing some sort of file compression on them as a result. If that was the case Stuffit should be able to decompress them for you and just rename the files after you download them.

It looks like quite a few people have downloaded some files - should I (and if so how do I??) create one of those polls in the next day or so to see what people are thinking?
Old 26th February 2003
  #14
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🎧 15 years
oops, track 3

Sheesh. I finally went back to listen to things and realized that track 03 is out of phase! I must have hit an invert switch on the preamp by accident on that one...

Those of you that downloaded the split stereo files could just invert one of the files, the mp3 and 16 bit people might want to grab file 03 again...

Must not have had my coffee the morning when I ran all of these... sorry!
Old 26th February 2003
  #15
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mig27's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
ok - just downloaded the MP3 files.
there are noticeable differences in deed, here are my findings:

1: good, but not great
2: thin and somewhat 2-dimensional, weak low end
3: nice - beautiful top end. sounds like there is some quality solid state equipment involved.
4: well balanced, but doesn't get me off my chair.
5: a tad cloudy but in a pleasing way. I suspect this is the tele V78 take.

by the way: are your v78's modified for line driver useage?
from what I understand, they are high gain mic pres, right?

cheers and thanks very much for this really interesting shoot-out.


michael
Old 26th February 2003
  #16
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heartsoffire's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
3 seems a bit more detailed, but I like 5 best, seems to be fuller.
Old 26th February 2003
  #17
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mig27's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
slightly off topic, but here's one more question:
what was your signal for the lead vocals?
sounds really sweet and yet totally up-front.

michael
Old 26th February 2003
  #18
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mig27
slightly off topic, but here's one more question:
what was your signal for the lead vocals?
sounds really sweet and yet totally up-front.

michael
Lomo 19a18 -> Cranesong Trakker (optical clean setting I think) -> Cranesong HEDD with medium processing.
Old 26th February 2003
  #19
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CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mig27
by the way: are your v78's modified for line driver useage?
from what I understand, they are high gain mic pres, right?

michael
Yeah, these are the Marquette labs ones which have a line input. They don't seem that high gain to me - probably around 50 db it seems. They seem to respond very differently to different mics (impedances I suppose). They have a hard time with ribbons, but if you can get it loud enough it sounds great.

You may be surprised at the answers...
Old 26th February 2003
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyBeast
Lomo 19a18 -> Cranesong Trakker (optical clean setting I think) -> Cranesong HEDD with medium processing.
There I go doing things before I've had my coffee again... And the mic pre - I'm pretty sure - was a Great River NV that I had on loan for a while, and now I really need one of my own to go with the MP2H!
Old 26th February 2003
  #21
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mig27's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyBeast
There I go doing things before I've had my coffee again... And the mic pre - I'm pretty sure - was a Great River NV that I had on loan for a while, and now I really need one of my own to go with the MP2H!
I'm quite happy with my tele V76 and V72, so I really should take a closer look at the 19a18.
This is not the first time I hear good things about this little russian mic. Do you know by any chance if they still build it?

michael
Old 26th February 2003
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by mig27
I'm quite happy with my tele V76 and V72, so I really should take a closer look at the 19a18.
This is not the first time I hear good things about this little russian mic. Do you know by any chance if they still build it?

michael
Not for about 45 years I think! I really like it and the 19a19 as well. Don't tell anybody...
Old 26th February 2003
  #23
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
thanks
Old 26th February 2003
  #24
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kosi's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: PT summing again - this time w/files

Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyBeast
Hello folks-
As I've mentioned several times, for a while now I've been running stems out of PT and summing them on my Studer board.
Hi Crazy, what Studer board do you use ?

regards, kosi
Old 26th February 2003
  #25
Gear Addict
 
CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by kosi
Hi Crazy, what Studer board do you use ?

regards, kosi
it's a 269 broadcast board
Old 28th February 2003
  #26
Gear Addict
 
CrazyBeast's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
revealed!

It looks like the downloading has slowed down, so I thought I'd put up the answers to what was what:

01 = Studer board summing
02 = Digi Bounce to disc
03 = RMS208 Summing device to Telefunken V78 pre
04 = RMS208 to Great River MP2H pre
05 = RMS208 to API 3124 pre


I'll post my thoughts on things a bit later after hearing from some other people. I'll keep the file server up for a while longer and people can always email me and ask me to turn it on for a while...
Old 2nd March 2003
  #27
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ulysses's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I'm biased because I built the 8-channel summing box Ben used for these tests. But I didn't know which was which when I drew these conclusions. I figured #3 had to be either the Studer or the Telefunken. I figued #2 was probably the internal mix.

I found it rather difficult to compare the files because they're long and there are so many of them. I thought about chopping them into 10-second sections for comparison but never got around to it. I was able to ascertain this much:

1. The guitars sounded thicker than in #2.
2. The low end extended further down, but the mix was flat and lifeless. The kick drum sounded "punchy."
3. Besides being out of phase, it sounded fizzy and downright distorted.
4. The low end didn't go down as low as #2, but the bass was fuller and rounder sounding. If #2's kick drum "punches" then this one "pushes" you.
5. A lot like #4, I guess.

Either 2 or 3 seemed to make the vocals sound louder. I don't remember which.

I'd like to see more of these kinds of tests. There's a guy in Boston who's working on some similar comparisons using a 16-channel version of my summing buss. Hopefully he'll share the results when he's done. I'd love to see Ben do some more comparisons with fewer variables.
Old 3rd March 2003
  #28
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
i flipped the phase on left #3 to get in phase.

watching the peaks at different sections meant a few gain adjustments to get the levels to match a bit closer.. It changed at different sections, but I was too lazy to readjust...

#2 was the PT mix signature.. sonics seem to be reasonaby accurate for some parts, but there's no dimension or space to the mix (ie limited front to back, and very discrete left to right... somthing happens in the middle where everything colides together)

#1 and 3-5 were different from 2 and each had it's own color / vibe... I wasn't sure which was which, but looking the answers did make it seem more obvious based on how each preamp sounds..

The neat thing about going this method would be the ability to pick the make-up preamp to tailor the mix per the song and style. I wonder how a Fearn VT2 (nice hifi sounding unit) or a pair of Vipre or a SLAM would do..

I also wonder how #2 would have sounded if the output of the mix bus was sent to 2channels of the summing box and then into one of the preamps to match what the preamp brings to equation... as way to discern between math, summing and preamp color...
Old 3rd March 2003
  #29
Lives for gear
 
mig27's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
=> ulysses: your summing box

could you kindly post some more information on this summing box you designed?

thanks.

michael
Old 3rd March 2003
  #30
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
could you kindly post some more information on this summing box you designed?


Ditto...

Thanks,

Salvator
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