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Ever had a drummer who hit like this?
Old 14th February 2003
  #1
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Ever had a drummer who hit like this?

On the snare, the tip of the stick hits the drumhead , but he simultaneously hits the middle of the stick (just above his fingers) on the rim. It gives a nice timbale kind of pop to the snare in the room....but capturing it is a royal pain. For one thing when a drummer hits the snare like this it is WAY, WAY louder than just hitting the snare head. I mean getting drum sounds drives everyone out of the room running for cover when he gets to the snare.

I've tried different preamps....a spider and great river mp-2 were too clean. It sounded like a sharp stick in the ear. An API or Great River NV were liveable but still harsh. I'm starting to thinkt the 57 just ain't the mic for this kind of snare sound.

This is the artist I am being paid to capture so I am not going to ask him to hit different. Any ideas ?
Old 14th February 2003
  #2
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
To make a solid 'rim hit' each time is an art!

In this (good) situation - get your snare sound from distant room & overhead mic's NOT primarily the close mic's..

Add the close mic's to the drum mix gently, you wont need much.


Work in this order
room (compressed)
Overheads
Add toms kick & snare last

In this senario soloing the snare / starting with kick & snare close mic's - is YOUR ENEMY!

Trust me I am a doctor!

Old 14th February 2003
  #3
Lives for gear
 
vodka gimli's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Sounds like Angelo Collura...he does that all the time!

We used a 57 into a Vintech 1272 into a cheap dbx comp to record Ange several times...seemed to work fine. Our room is too small for a room mic. Overheads were CAD E-100s with 421s on the toms and a cheap yet cool Sony condensor on the high hat. Don't know if that'll help much, but it woirked for us.

VG
Old 14th February 2003
  #4
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
To make a solid 'rim hit' each time is an art!

In this (good) situation - get your snare sound from distant room & overhead mic's NOT primarily the close mic's..

Add the close mic's to the drum mix gently, you wont need much.


Work in this order
room (compressed)
Overheads
Add toms kick & snare last

Yep, this is the direction I started going with it tonight. The snare is (overwhelmingly) loud enough in the overheads that I really can't add any spot snare without having having to bring the overheads down and the cymbals disappearing.

Thanks "Doc!"
Old 14th February 2003
  #5
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
And here I was thinking that a rimshot on each backbeat was just standard rock or could it be the kids these days just can't play them accurately enough.

Ok, so I'm a junkie. I like a little crack with my rock.
Old 14th February 2003
  #6
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Distortion is your friend. Recently most of the kits I've recorded have slightly overdriven mic pres and another mic running into a Sansamp.
Old 14th February 2003
  #7
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5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
rimshots are a usual thing to do ,
thats its way louder compared to a usual snare hit ??? never realized that . it just has a lot more of attack .
usually you just add that stuff on a backbeat if required to support the 2&4s . i am not an expert on this , but if the rimshots really needs another setup compared to the usual snare hits , i would simply add another mic and record it to another track . later on you cut the rimshots and the usual snare .

maybe ???

anyway i would ask the drummer if he/shes doing that on purpose , maybe he can change that in a minute . if he/she doesnt know how to do it , forget it .
you have to live with a not that good sound

p.s. maybe try to change the angle of the snare , you take the possibility away that the drummer could even do loud rimshots compared to a usual hit .
Old 14th February 2003
  #8
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
'rimshots are a usual thing to do'

It is a technique that is widely used.....and has been since the 60's or before.
When I first started doing sessions I was never happy with my snare sound, it always sounded weak and unexciting. Then I happened to share the drum chair with Jerry Marotta on an album. He was using that technique and his snare sound was awesome - as was his whole kit for that matter.
I've never looked back.

'anyway i would ask the drummer if he/shes doing that on purpose , maybe he can change that in a minute . if he/she doesnt know how to do it , forget it'

Recently I've started switching between the full on rimshot and the centre hit depending on the song or the sound required. The centre hit is a lot less percussive but can yield a fuller, fatter snare. It's a completely different way of playing though.

'p.s. maybe try to change the angle of the snare , you take the possibility away that the drummer could even do loud rimshots compared to a usual hit'

That is a crummy idea. I don't like the concept of messing with a musicians basic technique. If I had ever angled my snare slightly off when setting up I would often notice (at best) less consistent snare hits, (at worst) tired and sore wrists.
BTW, although engineers have often told me the overheads were the key to my sound, no one's ever complained about my playing overloading the 57 or mic input.
Old 14th February 2003
  #9
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Nutmeg II.'s Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
In such a case I'll use the snare mic just for the reverb send maybe add a little of it to the track to have a little more direct sound, but eq it to calm down in the 1-3kHz were the agressiv part of the snare is.
If the sound of the room/overhats is ok you might think of a adding only a mic onder the snare which will help you here!
Old 14th February 2003
  #10
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
As Jay says, try distortion!

Run it through a SansAmp or make a copy track if using a DAW and smash that with a distortion plug in... Blend to taste...
Old 14th February 2003
  #11
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i wish i hadnt thrown the sticks away and taken a picture of them, but this drummer i used to record would notch out right above his fingers completely... i do have a snare head of his where he blew out a knuckle hitting like that and blood squirted all over the head.
Old 14th February 2003
  #12
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
recently i was recording a track that was fast-ish and needed the old rim shot on every two and four. for that particular track, i found that a 414 just outside the rim, an inch or so above the head, and aimed right at the center of the drum captured the crack without being overpowering....

but then again if i've tuned the drum right and take time to place a 57 or something well, its not usually too big a deal. just do what jules says and use the room / oh more than your close mic.

-a-
Old 14th February 2003
  #13
Gear Addict
 
cymatics's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ah yes... the way a snare SHOULD be hit (for rawk anyway).

Like others have said, you'll probably get the the majority of your snare sound from the OH (and/or room mics if that's an option)

If a close mic must be used, I have had success taming this with any or all of the following:

- neutral condenser on the snare like an SM81 or something without the big presence peak of a 57

- any mic pre that has good "saturation' capabilitites. My faves for this app are Summit TPA 200, MP2NV, or any pre into a HEDD/Fatso/Distressor etc

- a really ****ing fast comp on the snare set with:
1) the highest ratio (10:1 or more)
2) the fastest atk and release
3) the threshold lowered until the meter indicates as much gain reduction on the snare hits as you can get without the comp being triggered by other drum hits that bled into the snare mic. The RNC is amazing for this as is the Aphex 651

- jon
Old 14th February 2003
  #14
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Ever had a drummer who hit like this?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
On the snare, the tip of the stick hits the drumhead , but he simultaneously hits the middle of the stick (just above his fingers) on the rim. It gives a nice timbale kind of pop to the snare in the room....but capturing it is a royal pain.

This is the artist I am being paid to capture so I am not going to ask him to hit different. Any ideas ?
Kevin, I've been using a UA 2108 through a Daking pre and limiter. A 57 on top and an AKG 408 clipped to the bottom (actually, clipped to the snare stand). The AKG is just for extreme top end - I take that flat though the console pre to another track.

You might make sure that the snare isn't too live (if the ring lasts too long, it can be an annoyance); there are several non-invasive ways tp control it. But that's a pretty standard style for Nashville drummers; I'm used to the sound, I guess.
Old 14th February 2003
  #15
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Roland's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hiting both rim and head at the same time is common technique amongst good players. they use it to get more of a thwack sound. Listen to Stewart Copland on the old Police tracks. Personally I usually use a 57 or 201 in this situation. Probably would shy away from a large diaphram condensor.

Regards


Roland
Old 14th February 2003
  #16
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Problem I have with drummers that hit rimshots REALLY hard is that it chokes the snare sound and you loose a ton of sustain and the snare track ends up sounding like a 'pop'. I usually have to distort a snare mult to bring a little 'ring' back into it. If its real bad I'll print another snare track running thru a fatso set with the warmth set pretty high. It normally tames that really sharp pop pretty well.
Old 14th February 2003
  #17
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by planet red
Problem I have with drummers that hit rimshots REALLY hard is that it chokes the snare sound and you loose a ton of sustain and the snare track ends up sounding like a 'pop'. I usually have to distort a snare mult to bring a little 'ring' back into it. If its real bad I'll print another snare track running thru a fatso set with the warmth set pretty high. It normally tames that really sharp pop pretty well.
Exactly how this is sounding. An I would have called it a "rimshot" from the beginning but I've found that term means different things to different folks. I have heard/seen drummers hit like this before, but this particular guy really leans on the rim. Metal snare too. I think a wood snare would have been a little tamer.

Thanks for the ideas all.
Old 14th February 2003
  #18
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
Metal snare too. I think a wood snare would have been a little tamer.
Ahh! Of course it just hit me like a flash.
Why don't you rent some alternative snares in.
Sometimes metal shells in certain rooms can just sound horrible, especially with the 'rimshot' technique.
I usually carry at least 10 snares with me anyway.
Try a bigger wood shell drum.
Having said that, a vintage 5 1/2 Ludwig B/Beauty is almost always what I end up using.
Old 14th February 2003
  #19
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
For once I agree word for word with chrisso's posts. heh

I've had drummers play the snare completely one way in one song and then change it for the next. Not unusual for drummer's with some repertoire of style and technique. From maximum "pannnng" (hitting the edge of the head, sometimes with milder rimshots) start to finish and mostly rimshots the next time. Then straight ahead middle(ish)-of-the-snare for other songs. Kevin, as I think you're already doing, keep finding out ahead of time what the snare is like on a per song basis. It's the best way to keep things under control as long as the session isn't a flash run, which makes it suffer in the end. Nothing beats having the time to concentrate on getting good sounds.

You are right to not mess with the drummer's setup. You'd have to have reasons I couldn't dispute for me to change my setup, especially my snare's angle or height. And if an engineer didn't ask me and tried to get away with moving something, I'd think they were incompetent and ask for an explanation. tutt

Aplha, re. the bloody knuckles. That's a sloppy drummer fighting to he heard even if he's the loudest part of the band. Either that or a self-masticating psycho, usually both.
Old 14th February 2003
  #20
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
FWIW, I got great room sounds last night with two R-121's eight feet from the center of the snare, about 12 feet apart, and around 5'10" or so up. Compressed the crap out of them, blended them in with the overhead KM184's which were setup in the recorderman style about 2'6" above the snare, and voila... killer kit sound with kick and snare compressed hard and added in judiciously for an aggressive rock sound.

R-121's went to Manley Dual 40dB

KM184's went to Great River MP-2 with 15dB pad in

kick and snare were the usual suspects, into Flamingo (no color switched in)

I gotta say getting agrression in drum sounds has MUCH more to do with the player than any coloring devices down the chain.
Old 14th February 2003
  #21
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5down1up's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
bout changing the setup :

well well well

i am more than glad getting some advice either playing or soundwise from people who heard that somethings wrong .
and i did every mistake you can do heh

if a sound is uncontrolable , the player must do something wrong . it probably just depends on how you say it .
" you suck " might be not the best choice of words in fact of productivity during your sessions .
but some good advice will never hurt


if a drummer sets up his bass drum as a snare and wants to play his snare as a bass drum , i want at least to know if hes doing that on purpose or if hes just clueless .

i remember a friend of mine really believed that

" S N A R E " is a swedish word

if you dont know it , how can you know heh
Old 15th February 2003
  #22
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scraggs's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Hi,

I too aspire to perfect rimshots every backbeat. sounds much better to me. Micing wise, try a condenser off to the side of the snare. Lately i've been using an AT4040 about 6" away aimed right in the middle of the shell. move it up or down to taste. to me, this sounds much cooler than the standard 57 on the top head. i usually have a pretty decent amount of snare in the overheads, but the side mic adds a lot of "crunchy thickness" that you don't get from the overheads.

cheers,
-scott
Old 15th February 2003
  #23
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ok, I gotta chime in on this.
"Shotting" is really common among hard hitting rock AND RnB players and usually is learned as a way to get over the band playing live.
It becomes familiar territory to the player.....feels solid to hit that way.
Depending on where your bead ends up (tip in center or say, 4" from the edge ala Stewert Copeland) the tone is different. Yet with just about every drum it will yield the "bonk" (choked ) tone that can sometimes be annoying. Certainley not the same as hitting dead center, no rim.

a seasoned player should be able to do both on demand. it's natural ( to me ) to hit hard and shot....but to get the most tone out of a drum, hitting dead center, strong but not swinging from behind your head, gives the engineer a lot more to work with. from the players perspective "hitting hard" and "shotting" seems to be more powerful. It dosen't always read that way upon playback. good players always seem to be able to balance their limbs, to self mix.
that being said, nothing is more of a drag than a weak left hand. or player that kills cymbals and hits like a pussy.

I've at times tilted my snare to an angle towrds me to avoid any shotting, like on ballads where we're looking for a fat tone, lots of snare (think clearmountain sampled snare) yu just cant get that while hammering rimshots.

Maybe we should start a thread on favorite snare sounds and how they got 'em.
Old 17th February 2003
  #24
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Aplha, re. the bloody knuckles. That's a sloppy drummer fighting to he heard even if he's the loudest part of the band. Either that or a self-masticating psycho, usually both.
Not really. I've cracked a knuckle on the snare once or twice just by being a bit sloppy, either that or I was really into playing and not really paying attention on a fill. Either way, it hurts like a mother. Usually it's the end of the day or a few hours break when it happens.
Old 20th February 2003
  #25
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RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Ever had a drummer who hit like this?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ckevperry
On the snare, the tip of the stick hits the drumhead , but he simultaneously hits the middle of the stick (just above his fingers) on the rim. It gives a nice timbale kind of pop to the snare in the room....but capturing it is a royal pain.
?
Some of you in L.A. may have known Claude Pepper, aka Jack Mack (of Jack Mack and the Heart Attack), who was one of the groovinestt drummers I ever had the joy of playing with, and that's exactly how he hit his snare. I don't recall any problem recording it using conventional techniques. Maybe you'll get more mileage from your overheads or room mics than the 57 right on the snare.

Sadly, Claude passed away a few weeks ago after a long bout with cancer.

-R
Old 20th February 2003
  #26
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cajonezzz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Ever had a drummer who hit like this?

Sadly, Claude passed away a few weeks ago after a long bout with cancer.

-R [/B][/QUOTE]
Sad to hear...he was a hell of a player. I saw him many times in Tahoe when I was first comming up. Thanks for passing that along.
Old 20th February 2003
  #27
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Aplha, re. the bloody knuckles. That's a sloppy drummer fighting to he heard even if he's the loudest part of the band. Either that or a self-masticating psycho, usually both.
nah... he just hits the things harder than anyone i have ever seen hit... and sometimes he gets carried away, drunk, or both. he runs through equipment faster than anyone i have met. breaks beater shafts, chunks fly off his cymbals, heads pop, rims break... everytime he hits the snare is goes sharp on the hit and then goes flat through the tune. lugs fall out during songs.
Old 20th February 2003
  #28
Jax
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Sounds like a meathead with an expensive habit: drumming!
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