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Question for Dave Martin
Old 1st June 2002
  #1
Question for Dave Martin

Dave do you do a lot of sessions on PT doing county music? Those guys dont like to mess around.. What sort of time saving tricks do you get up to?

rollz
Old 1st June 2002
  #2
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
perhaps it's the cattle prod hidden behind the double bass? Or the fact that the BBQ comes out after the session. take care Logan
Old 1st June 2002
  #3
Yeh Dave, give us some Pro Tools 'secret sauce' tips!

spin
Old 1st June 2002
  #4
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Question for Dave Martin

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Dave do you do a lot of sessions on PT doing county music? Those guys dont like to mess around.. What sort of time saving tricks do you get up to?

rollz
The biggest one is that I don't cut tracks to Pro Tools - I work with DA-78 and 88s when I'm tracking. Why? For two reasons - first is the fact that music is supposed to be linear, dammit! (I know I'm old fashioned, but when I hear a song and realize that the the second chorus is simply the first chorus flown over, it pisses me off...)

I don't fly instruments around, I don't edit tracks, and I certainly not Pro Tools the drums (that's what one of the drummers who works here calls it...) - I simply record. Fixing mstakes by punching in is a heck of a lot faster for me than flying the part from verse one to verse two.

Another reason is that when I mix, I tend to use a fairly large amount of outboard gear - it's not unusual for me to have 20-25 channels of compressors in a typical 35-35 channel instrumental track. I miss that whenever I try to mix a session in PT.

The way I typically mix a project is to do a stereo track mix into Pro Tools, then transfer all of the vocals in to do my final client mixes, or if I aven't cut vocals yet, record them into PT.

Of course, if I want to manipulate someting within the track mix (for example, use a plug-in that I don't have in the real world, like the Wave Mechanics stuff, or the enormoursly over-used telephone plug in in the Waves Q10), I'll transfer that particular track into Pro Tools at the same time I do the mix of everything else.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem cutting vocals into Pro Tools, if I've got a decent track mix. Even then, I don't typically comp vocals - it's easer and faster to simply punch my way to success.

You may have noticed that it takes really, really good players and singers to do this. And that's the real time saver. Hire great players and things go quickly.
Old 2nd June 2002
  #5
Awesome responce Dave, thanks...many a wise word. I must say some stuff I did to DA88 recently shocked me... how good it sounded!

Old 2nd June 2002
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Dave Martin

So Hi Jules... my gosh .. how do ever find the time to make music with all this "Moderating" you do hehe! OK so I'm here I am!...I gota reply to this!...

Dave.. well... I got to disagree with ya bro! ... I think to say that "music is supposed to be linear" is a very restrictive view! .. There simply is no faster way to cut tracks O'd or mix than on a well set up ProTools system. I hear what you say regarding out board, but I'd say sell a few of those old DA88's and get your self another farm card! ...(or 2)...

"I don't fly instruments around, I don't edit tracks, and I certainly not Pro Tools the drums ".... Haha! Dude I'd say you are missing the power available to you! If I took that approach I'd run out of clients pretty dam quick haha! There's no reason what so ever that anything done on a good Tools system with someone that knows how to work it should sound "digital".. you can get ANY feel out of Tools these days with the astonishing aray of plugs available for sound manipulation....From scratchy old analog vinyl vibe to ultra smooth crispy digital... As someone that 'grew up ' in Neve/ SSL 48Trk tape studios I say there is no comparison and I am now able to make things sound better, faster and at less cost to the client than EVER before. I dont work on Cubase (if I can help it) --or Logic for that matter unless it's running some midi **** as a slave over IAC bus, -- as they do not "sound" anywhere close to the quality you get from Tools.. But DA88!! ..Oh dear.... But then... I guess I do still own an old 24Trk for those "linear sessions" haha! I wish you luck bro.. Happy trails :-)

BTW.. anyone here crasy enough to fall for the "you must upgrtade to the new HD system"?! haha! The Digidesign mafia are after you pocket book beware!!.... But if so can I please buy your old Mix Farms haha! :-))
Old 2nd June 2002
  #7
Is that our first argument!??



So Swag.. do you stack up a lot of plug ins on mixdown, on auxes while? recording?

I belive Plug ins can ruin audio integrit pretty damn sharpish.. if you are not carefull with em..



Old 2nd June 2002
  #8
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Re: Re: Question for Dave Martin

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin


The biggest one is that I don't cut tracks to Pro Tools - I work with DA-78 and 88s when I'm tracking. Why? For two reasons - first is the fact that music is supposed to be linear, dammit! (I know I'm old fashioned, but when I hear a song and realize that the the second chorus is simply the first chorus flown over, it pisses me off...)

I don't fly instruments around, I don't edit tracks, and I certainly not Pro Tools the drums (that's what one of the drummers who works here calls it...) - I simply record. Fixing mstakes by punching in is a heck of a lot faster for me than flying the part from verse one to verse two.
-snip-

You may have noticed that it takes really, really good players and singers to do this. And that's the real time saver. Hire great players and things go quickly.
yellAmenyell
In my opinion the problem with PT is not the sound, I've heard great sounding PT stuff (thanx Jules), but the overediting and fixing of badly performed music.
Old 2nd June 2002
  #9
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Dave Martin

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swag
[B]So Hi Jules... my gosh .. how do ever find the time to make music with all this "Moderating" you do hehe! OK so I'm here I am!...I gota reply to this!...

Dave.. well... I got to disagree with ya bro! ... I think to say that "music is supposed to be linear" is a very restrictive view! .. There simply is no faster way to cut tracks O'd or mix than on a well set up ProTools system. I hear what you say regarding out board, but I'd say sell a few of those old DA88's and get your self another farm card! ...(or 2)...

This is really a philosophical discussion - it impacts not only the way that we work but the way that we listen. I want to hear the music grow and progress through the course of the song, which mieans that the passing of time is an integral part of the music. It may be subliminal to some, but taking, for example, the common practice of getting one good chorus out of the singer and then flying to the other choruses. if the the singer isn't moved enough so sing the secong chorus with a bit of a different texture than the first one, then it, to my ears, means that the song isn't doing anything for her. And if it's not, why the hell is she singing it?. I believe that the energy a great singer brings to singing the song (as opposed to singing a phrase) is more important than the potential of saving time by comping tracks and flying parts.

Another part of that philosophy is that I'd would much rather hear a whole band out in the room performing than I would a record made where each instrument is overdubbed. Don't get me wrong, most of my work is done overdubbing one instrument at a time, but the music suffers, compared to hearing great players playing together.

"I don't fly instruments around, I don't edit tracks, and I certainly not Pro Tools the drums ".... Haha! Dude I'd say you are missing the power available to you! If I took that approach I'd run out of clients pretty dam quick haha!

Perhaps you should get clients who can play and sing... I also keep a 12 guage shotgun in my house, and I haven't used that power either. I could use it to open a can of soup, I guess.

Seriously, I have and use a PT setup on most of my sessions, but with great players, ithat 'power of Pro Tools' is simply not necessary. I'm in the middle of a record now where the guidelines going in are "No punching in mistakes, no overdubs, and no headphones." It's a 9 piece western swing band (think of is as Count Basie, with fiddle and steel guitar), and vocalists. It's music. If, at the end of a take, any of the musicians are unhappy with their performance, we cut the track again. One three hour session (so far) has given us 4 completed tracks, for about 24 minutees of recorded music. And we took a few breaks to enjoy the day and swap lies. So tell me how Pro Tools could make that session go faster? Two more sessions (or a total of 9 hours of studio time) will give finish the record.

There's no reason what so ever that anything done on a good Tools system with someone that knows how to work it should sound "digital".. you can get ANY feel out of Tools these days with the astonishing aray of plugs available for sound manipulation....From scratchy old analog vinyl vibe to ultra smooth crispy digital... As someone that 'grew up ' in Neve/ SSL 48Trk tape studios I say there is no comparison and I am now able to make things sound better, faster and at less cost to the client than EVER before.

Yep, and I assume that your DAW skills would have made Aretha's "Natural Woman" a better track? , or the first Beatles album - which was recorded in 10 hours? That's my starting point - it the talent and the song aren't there, nothing is there. And if they are, then you don't need the editing ability nearly as much.

I dont work on Cubase (if I can help it) --or Logic for that matter unless it's running some midi **** as a slave over IAC bus, -- as they do not "sound" anywhere close to the quality you get from Tools.. But DA88!! ..Oh dear.... But then... I guess I do still own an old 24Trk for those "linear sessions" haha! I wish you luck bro.. Happy trails :-)

Well, I use the 24 bit DA78's for acoustic instruments and drums. I don't hear sonic problems with DA88s with electric guitars and synth modules.

But in any case, I suspect that you and I are speaking of different worlds - you beliecve that Pro Tools makes your work easier, I think that in many cases, it makes the music suffer.
Old 2nd June 2002
  #10
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: Re: Question for Dave Martin

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener


yellAmenyell
In my opinion the problem with PT is not the sound, I've heard great sounding PT stuff (thanx Jules), but the overediting and fixing of badly performed music.
Michael, you ought to come out some Monday night to the Station inn and see the Time Jumpers. That's what reminded me that music comes from musicians, not from skilful engineers.
Old 2nd June 2002
  #11
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Dave Martin

Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin


Michael, you ought to come out some Monday night to the Station inn and see the Time Jumpers. That's what reminded me that music comes from musicians, not from skilful engineers.
Would love to. I'll have some "off" time beginning of next month, I'll take you up on the offer.okk
Old 3rd June 2002
  #12
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🎧 15 years
Anyone for soup!

>Perhaps you should get clients who can play and sing... I also keep a 12 guage shotgun in my house, and I haven't used that power either.

Haha! ... just about sums up the argument I'd say!! Arn't we getting just a touch arrogant here?! ... hehe! ...

>"No punching in mistakes, no overdubs, and no headphones." It's a 9 piece western swing band

Yee haaa! ..mmm sounds .... good?! heh! ...

Sorry bro... I hear what you're sayin' about the music comin' first 'n all and I'm with ya on that ... No really I am!... the first mixes I cut way back in the day there wasn't even any automation let alone ProTools!! ... I been down the "No Overdubs" road and made my fair share of done in a day albums... But what you're describin' dont sound like what I see as the reality of making music that sells in parts of the world outside of Nashvile city limits in this day and age hehe!... (Especially if you run your own studio!) ... I just cant afford to turn away a band just because they might want to drop in a gtr solo!... (Of course I could always wip out my trusty 12 guage an shoot 'em in the ass I guess) hehe!

I know you're good at what you do... Otherwise you probably wouldn't bother bangin' out a reply and chewin' on my sorry ass haha! ... I respect that ... and I could write a thesis on what constitutes a great song or not but what would be the point?... I dont think anyone would give a flyin ****!

If I'm just booking out studio time, I dont think it's down to me a pass judgment on wether an artist is "up to the mark" of being recorable or not ... If I'm being asked to "Produce" an act then I guess there is a judgment call to make!... But in either case, (if I take the task on), I think it IS up to me to try and get the best out of them in a production sense and make their tracks sound the best I can in an engineering sense.. Thats my bag... And some folks need more help than others, and likewise songs! .. (God bless Auto-Tune and all who sail in her)! Cut n paste,Cut n paste,X-Fade,Cut n paste,Cut n paste. ;-)

-->Jules
>I believe Plug ins can ruin audio integrit pretty damn sharpish...

ahhhh... that'll be the 'Lo-Fi" plug I guess! ... Try one of the others, some of 'em sound pretty dam good hehe!!.... (Juss messin wid ya of course)... But seriously... dont try this at home kids.. it,s not for the faint hearted!

Now fade up that thar pedal steel :-))
Old 3rd June 2002
  #13
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Dave
A technical question here. When you say that you are overdubbing an instrument at a time , do you have all these players in iso booths or what? If not, how do you deal with the bleed? I pretty much cut live from the floor in my humble little bottom feeder establishment and then redo the vocals, 'cause unfortunately most of the punters I deal with can't follow the song without a scratch vocal track. But I have to iso the amps record the bass direct and iso the drums and the vocalist, because bleed just leaves me incapacitated, every freaking time I try to mix I find if I have bleed it always competes with what I want to do. Now this is slightly wierd because I have a live background and got to work with some pretty good and internationally know musicians, and bleed is the name of the game in those situations.
So is your tracking session also the mix session? Is it mostly mixed on the way into the media of choice? I'm begining to wonder if it's not the way to go, which would also include adding the verbs and stuff on the way in. In other words, a little preproduction to get the sucker sounding right and cut it, with fader moves and everything done during tracking. Same as I'd do a live show. Now maybe not for loop based synth stuff ,but i don't get any of that anyway, Blues, roots rock, punk, singer songwriter folk stuff is my bread and butter. Take care Logan
Old 3rd June 2002
  #14
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🎧 15 years
Re: Anyone for soup!

]Originally posted by Swag
<<Perhaps you should get clients who can play and sing... I also keep a 12 guage shotgun in my house, and I haven't used that power either.

Haha! ... just about sums up the argument I'd say!! Arn't we getting just a touch arrogant here?! ... hehe! ... >>

No, I'm not trying to be arrogant - I'm simply pointing out that as a producer, I call the players who I believe will do the best job for me. As I said, it's a philosophic argument, and I fall into the camp that feels like music is made by musicians.

>"No punching in mistakes, no overdubs, and no headphones." It's a 9 piece western swing band

>>Yee haaa! ..mmm sounds .... good?! heh! ...

>>Sorry bro... I hear what you're sayin' about the music comin' first 'n all and I'm with ya on that ... No really I am!... the first mixes I cut way back in the day there wasn't even any automation let alone ProTools!! ... I been down the "No Overdubs" road and made my fair share of done in a day albums... But what you're describin' dont sound like what I see as the reality of making music that sells in parts of the world outside of Nashvile city limits in this day and age hehe!... (Especially if you run your own studio!) ... I just cant afford to turn away a band just because they might want to drop in a gtr solo!... (Of course I could always wip out my trusty 12 guage an shoot 'em in the ass I guess) hehe!>>

Again, it has nothing to do with turning down work, nor does it have anything to do with 'the reality of making music that sells in parts of the world outside the Nashville City Limits'. If you really want to see what sells, look at the sales figures for records in the third and fourth week after their release - very little is selling well at that point. Or look at total sales for the last couple of years - the industry as a whole is not selling in the volume it was 10 years ago. Oddly enough, one of the biggest profit centers for the labels is back catalog stuff - music that was recorded before everything could be 'fixed'

>>I know you're good at what you do... Otherwise you probably wouldn't bother bangin' out a reply and chewin' on my sorry ass haha! ... I respect that ... and I could write a thesis on what constitutes a great song or not but what would be the point?... I dont think anyone would give a flyin ****!>>

First, I'm not chewing on anything. Second, if you could write a thesis on what makes a great song, I'd suggest that you do so - apparently a bunch of people in the music business have forgotten...

>>If I'm just booking out studio time, I dont think it's down to me a pass judgment on wether an artist is "up to the mark" of being recorable or not ... If I'm being asked to "Produce" an act then I guess there is a judgment call to make!... But in either case, (if I take the task on), I think it IS up to me to try and get the best out of them in a production sense and make their tracks sound the best I can in an engineering sense.. Thats my bag... And some folks need more help than others, and likewise songs! .. (God bless Auto-Tune and all who sail in her)! Cut n paste,Cut n paste,X-Fade,Cut n paste,Cut n paste. ;-) >>

Nope - when you're hired t do the gig, you do the work that they hire you for. My belief, however, is that you tend to end up with better music by getting the performance from the artist rather than from the DAW. Your opinion differs. Cool.


>>Now fade up that thar pedal steel :-)) >>

Or let the steel player do it. He has a volume pedal...
Old 3rd June 2002
  #15
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
Dave
A technical question here. When you say that you are overdubbing an instrument at a time , do you have all these players in iso booths or what? If not, how do you deal with the bleed? I pretty much cut live from the floor in my humble little bottom feeder establishment and then redo the vocals, 'cause unfortunately most of the punters I deal with can't follow the song without a scratch vocal track. But I have to iso the amps record the bass direct and iso the drums and the vocalist, because bleed just leaves me incapacitated, every freaking time I try to mix I find if I have bleed it always competes with what I want to do. Now this is slightly wierd because I have a live background and got to work with some pretty good and internationally know musicians, and bleed is the name of the game in those situations.
So is your tracking session also the mix session? Is it mostly mixed on the way into the media of choice? I'm begining to wonder if it's not the way to go, which would also include adding the verbs and stuff on the way in. In other words, a little preproduction to get the sucker sounding right and cut it, with fader moves and everything done during tracking. Same as I'd do a live show. Now maybe not for loop based synth stuff ,but i don't get any of that anyway, Blues, roots rock, punk, singer songwriter folk stuff is my bread and butter. Take care Logan
Well, it's a different thing - 95% percent of my work is done with my regular group of guys, and we work with a click. When I'm doing tracks 'one instrument at a time', it goes as follows (By the way, I would prefer NOT to do it this way, but scheduling of the musicians sometimes forces it on me):

The project comes in, usually either 10 or 20 songs at a time. I'll chart them, and send charts and tapes to the guys. The drummer and I will often play alone - that is, I'll play bass and he'll play drums to the click, on all 10 or 20 songs. This generally takes between 2 1/2 and 5 hours, depending on the number of songs and the complexity involved. If I need to fix any (or all) of the bass parts, I do it after the drums are done. I schedule the other guys I want to play on the project whenever I can get them The guitarist plays with the bass, drums and click, the keyboard guy comes in later and puts whatever parts on I deem appropriate, and then comes vocals. Thats a way of working that can be pretty fast, but it depends on players who are used to working that way. It also depends on my knowing what I want the final product to sound like, and knowing how to get it.

In your case, it sounds like you're approaching it the same way that I would - if you expect that you'll need to be replacing stuff, iso the amps and the singer. I've got my room set up so that there are three iso booths off of the main room, another off my 'B' room (which isn't operational yet), and both mic and speaker lines to the lounge area/entrance. There are speaker lines from the control room to a couple of the iso booths as well as the lounge. That means that I could either put the band all in the main room (except, probably the vocalist) and all the amps in their own rooms. That way, I don't have bleed problems.

Another option, if the punters can at least play the basic track clean, is to lay down all of the rhythm instruments live, in the room, and do solos and whatnot as overdubs. That way, you've got bleed on things where it's not inappropriate to have bleed, but will still have control over the stuff that will take awhile to punch.

At least, that works for me.
Old 3rd June 2002
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Stand By Your Man!

>one of the biggest profit centers for the labels is back catalog stuff - music that was recorded before everything could be 'fixed'

Well sure!... it dont cost diddly squat to re- release! ..

>you tend to end up with better music by getting the performance from the artist rather than from the DAW. Your opinion differs.

No! .. I agree!!!! My DAW cant sing for ****!! (Not bad at harmonies tho hehe)! But I'm guessing that maybe you dont do that much work using samples and loops!?... ( I tend to steel all my loops from great country records out of Nashville)! haha! ... No not really ... just kidding honest! ...

>Or let the steel player do it. He has a volume pedal...

Haha! very good! ...

Yep,... from what you're posting I think we live in different audio worlds bro!... and thats OK... I hope there's room enough here for all of us to co-exisit! ... But do please lighten up some dude! ... Or life's too short ! ... And if I ever get around to that thesis I'll try and get you a copy haha! I wish you well Dave, long may you (country) rock :-)
Old 4th June 2002
  #17
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Only someone who's never met Dave could tell him to "lighten up." He's one of the most seriously funny laid back guys I've ever met (and a damn fine musician with very "big ears" and very eclectic tastes).
If you know him, you're laughing like I am at Dave saying "punter."
Old 4th June 2002
  #18
One with big hooves
 
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🎧 15 years
I think if Dave got much more laid back he'd stop breathing.

I like bleed when recording. The trick is to get it to sound good. By good I mean not phasy and not too washy, that only comes with experience. Using less mics is usually better. When I'm tracking a band without headphones and the amps in the room we usually take more time getting sounds. Most of it is moving amps around rather then selecting mics.
Old 4th June 2002
  #19
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks Dave
I see what you're up to now, originally I thought you were tracking the whole enchilada at once then doing over dubs, I see now that I made assumptions based on you're western swing project. I pretty much seperate out the players as you do , hoping for at least a clean rythym section. Most of the guys I'm recording couldn't read a grocery list, let alone a chart. Well there is the odd university band that can handle the grocery list, but they can't remember to bring extra strings. All of which is leading me on a talent search to set up a small indie label where I can concentrate on four or five bands.
I do have to deal with an upright soon and I'd love to hear your advice on that, is there any pickup/direct combo, combined with a mic, that you think works or should I just go for a miced sound, and should that be a combo of fret board and body? Take care Logan
Old 4th June 2002
  #20
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🎧 15 years
Hey Jay
Yah I wish I could deal with bleed a little better, it would make my situation easier. I just did a session with a singer songwriter with some great songs, it was sort of a pre production thing for a larger session scheduled for the fall where we will use a rythym section and an electric player. But we hoped to get a decent set of tracks to use as a sampler to get some club work for this guy in the mean time. The session was an accoustic (custum made lefty Larivee that is a pretty good sounding unit although not quite as punchy on the bottom end as I'd like) and a banjo player with some nice open back custom made units and a closed back electric banjo. I set them up in seperate rooms and gave them a head phone mix and they were quite happy with the result , but I thought it sucked. I've recorded the singer before and used a AT 4047 but this time it wasn't working so we used a U87 on his vocals. I used an AT 4033 and an AKG 535EB on the Larivee. Now this guy has a nasal quality to his voice and doesn't sing hard, he has a very easy delivery. But I wanted to punch it up a bit and I wanted to punch up the guitar on the low end a bit, but vitually everything I tried either made the guitar sound like crap from the bleed to the vocal mic or made the voice sound like crap from the bleed to the guitar mics. Now I've only tried it with waves EQs in the Daw and I'll have run it through the console to see if I can get anything better. We did move mics around and stuff and it seemed to be good for awhile but maybe change of humidity or the fact that as time went on the players changed position, I don't know, I wasn't happy. However as I'm playing a production role in this and as there were some timing issues that I convinced them needed fixing, I'll get another shot at it. I'm thinking now that I'll put up a room mic for the singer/guitarist and see if I can get friendly with the bleed issue and use it instead of trying to defeat it. I'll also use the pickup in the guitar which we didn't last time ( we were trying to be organic ;-)) and mix a little of that in. Any ideas are welcomed. Take care Logan
Old 4th June 2002
  #21
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
Thanks Dave

I do have to deal with an upright soon and I'd love to hear your advice on that, is there any pickup/direct combo, combined with a mic, that you think works or should I just go for a miced sound, and should that be a combo of fret board and body? Take care Logan
The last half dozen times I've recorded upright, it's been with one mic (either an RCA 74B, more recently, a restored 77DX) through a Great River NV or a Vintech X73, between a foot and 18 inches in front of the high side F hole.

Alternatively, a large diaphragm condenser a bit closer to the instrument is a bit of a different sound, but still workable. About 90% of the bass sound will come frim the bass and the player, though.
Old 4th June 2002
  #22
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Lyle Caldwell
Only someone who's never met Dave could tell him to "lighten up." He's one of the most seriously funny laid back guys I've ever met (and a damn fine musician with very "big ears" and very eclectic tastes).
If you know him, you're laughing like I am at Dave saying "punter."
Lyle, I come by the word semi-honestly - from Jonathan Gash's "Lovejoy" novels. I have a small library here at Rancho del Martin (between 4 and 5 thousand volumes) and some days, I have a bit of difficulty remembering whether I heard something at a session or if I read it in a book written in the 19th century... I occasionally find myself using phrases which are, shall we say, a bit archaic for a transplanted Texan bass player. (This week, I'm revisiting the Sherlock Holmes tales, and as close as I've been able to discover, Holmes never said, "The Devil is in the details." I turned 45 yeasterday, but I must be moving into my senior years; since senior moments are coming faster than ever...
Old 4th June 2002
  #23
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I certainly didn't mean to sound surprised you knew the word, but it must sound funny when a Texan says it. Happy birthday!
Old 4th June 2002
  #24
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Happy Birthday, Dave.
Old 4th June 2002
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Originally posted by Dave Martin
Quote:
About 90% of the bass sound will come frim the bass and the player, though. [/B]
So true of any instrument. Thanks for the info, and happy birthday. 45 eh, just a ****ing pup.;-). If you are having those senior moments you are not consuming enough single malt, not that the scotch helps, you just won't give a **** what you've forgotten. take care Logan
Old 4th June 2002
  #26
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🎧 15 years
I'm weighing in on the "it's a hell of a lot easier to just get good players and make good decisions about what to do" side of the line. For this reason I have a Radar. I made a lot of records with Protools and for a long time was in love with all of its POWER. But as we know, POWER CORRUPTS and ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. Now I would much rather work with the artist to get it right, straight from them, rather than trying to do it myself.

And I find artists love it as well. One of my artists came with a beautifully crafted demo- he's got a really good ear for production and did everything in Protools. He was a little leary when I said I didn't use it anymore. After just one session his mind was changed and I was chosen over 5 other producers, some with much larger names than mine, to work his record. He knew that the songs were better by really working them out offline, rather than trying to manipulate them into something. He is very loop-based and artificial, with lots of blending of live and fake stuff. But he'd rather work the old-fashioned way. My $.02
Old 5th June 2002
  #27
jon
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jon's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hear, hear! I'm with Dave and Rob on this BIG TIME.

Great performances, artists and songs is where it's at...

(...captured by great gear used minimally in great acoustic spaces by great fellow gearslutz!)

Jon
Old 5th June 2002
  #28
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
The session was an accoustic (custum made lefty Larivee that is a pretty good sounding unit although not quite as punchy on the bottom end as I'd like) and a banjo player with some nice open back custom made units and a closed back electric banjo. I set them up in seperate rooms and gave them a head phone mix and they were quite happy with the result , but I thought it sucked. I've recorded the singer before and used a AT 4047 but this time it wasn't working so we used a U87 on his vocals. I used an AT 4033 and an AKG 535EB on the Larivee. Now this guy has a nasal quality to his voice and doesn't sing hard, he has a very easy delivery. But I wanted to punch it up a bit and I wanted to punch up the guitar on the low end a bit, but vitually everything I tried either made the guitar sound like crap from the bleed to the vocal mic or made the voice sound like crap from the bleed to the guitar mics
Man, that's a lotta mics for such a simple session. No wonder you're having problems. When I do a session like that it's usually two mics, one for the guitar and one for the vocal. If the guitar has a pickup I'll usually take that and maybe use a little bit of it. I'll add a pinch of reverb, some buss compression and let 'em play. One of the keys to using a few mics is that you can't really EQ them that much before they start to sound weird. Maybe 2dB tops. Any more then that and you need to change the mic, move it or both. The last time I did a session like that I also patched a pair of Speck ASC's on the buss after the compressor to make things a bit brighter. I also used an 1176 at 4:1 to pull the vocal in a hair because his dynamics were all over the place. Less is more.

If you want to talk more about this start a new thread on my forum so we don't totally disrail this one.
Old 5th June 2002
  #29
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Hmm, I posted this and it never showed, so again...

Logan,
Have you tried using a fig 8 (like your U87) on the guitar so that the voice is in the null, and a cardioid on the vocal so the guitar is in the null? That's apparently the setup used on Lyle Lovett, and I can think of few better recorded examples of that style.
Old 5th June 2002
  #30
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Jay
Ya well I don't always use all the mics, but I'm real partial to stereo accoustic on a sparce recording like this, I've got three mics instead of two, it's really not over kill. But even taking one of the guitar mics out of the mix is not really getting what I want. Yah I'll post a little blurb on your area and we can have at it.
Lyle, Ya I'm thinking that I might try exactly that. I did try postion the 4033 so that the voice would be in the null but it's kinda hard to do unless you have the mic facing down. I will try the U87 and a 4050 coming in from different sides next time and that way I can use them in figure 8 and see if it helps.
I think that the real problem here is that what you need to cut or boost with this particular voice and guitar are exactly matched and doing one or the other to either source seems to diminish the one you are not working on. Of course there is always the possiblity that I'm a no talented hack and can see the obvious. :-)Anyway I'm getting another shot and like I said, the client is happy. In fact, I got an email from the client yesterday saying he has never sounded better so it's only myself I'm trying to please. thanks for the tips guys Take care Logan
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