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Mixer insert as direct out question...
Old 13th January 2008
  #1
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mikeon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Mixer insert as direct out question...

Hi pardon my ignorance but I am buying a Yamaha mg mixer and I have a delta 44 sound card, I read about the technique of using inserts as direct out to get individual tracks by inserting half click, but I am not sure what kind of cable should I insert 'half-click'.Should I use a TS cable or TRS cable ? Will both types work ? I know the signal will be unbalanced but what level will it be at from this mixer? +4dbu ? Please help me...
Old 13th January 2008
  #2
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lowfreq33's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
TS.
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #3
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mikeon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
hey thanks for the prompt reply, so I'm guessing TRS cables won't work ? And if I have to take the mixers main outs I use TRS cables right ?
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #4
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Both work fine, it's just that a TRS isn't necessary as the "R" isn't connected in a "one click" scenario.
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #5
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mikeon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ok... Thanks for the info man, this forum is so great ! Prompt replies n all...
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #6
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yep! As the posters above have said: If your console does not have a direct out you can use the insert jack in to 1 click....

It is always good to know why this work so....:

Why DOES this work?

Generally (I say this because I am sure someone has encountered something sometime where this is untrue... but it is true 99% of the time) Insert sends are Half Normalled to Insert returns (in the recording world this is accomplished at the patchbay). What does half-normalled mean? Well there is a internal connection between the insert send and the insert return which allows voltage (your signal) to pass when nothing is patched it.

Half Normalled means that that internal connection breaks ONLY when patching into the return (Insert Return in this case).

Basically if you plug only into the insert send you have a copy of the signal which you can use however you like.

When the inserts are combined into one jack (like on your console) the insert send AND return is sent down the same TRS cable (two unballanced signals are being sent down your "ballenced" cable). By plugging it halfway in (to the first click) you are only connecting the insert send and not disrupting the internal connection to the insert return.


Cheers!

-Mike B.
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #7
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Rick Sutton's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 ➑️
By plugging it halfway in (to the first click) you are only connecting the insert send and not disrupting the internal connection to the insert return.

-Mike B.
Good explanation Mike. Just to clarify one thing. At least with Mackies (and I believe this is almost universal) when you plug in to the first click you are actually taking the signal at the insert RETURN. This allows you to either take a send without interrupting the channel or you push all the way in and still pick up the send AND stop the channnel from continuing on to the stereo buss etc. A small point but critical if you decide to build insert cables and don't understand which point is which.
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #8
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Use these:
Hosa DOC-106 Insert Adaptor
and you don't have to worry about the one click trick. Some mixers will not hold the plug securely at one click, this bridges the tip and ring securely.
L
Old 13th January 2008
  #9
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeon ➑️
I am not sure what kind of cable should I insert 'half-click'.
For a more stable connection you can use simple adapters from Radio Shack, as described and linked in this article:

Using a Mixer With a DAW

The advantage is you can use a standard 1/4 inch mono plug, and push it all the way in so it's a solid connection.

--Ethan
Old 13th January 2008 | Show parent
  #10
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Oops! <facepalm>

Thanks Rick for picking up my slack!
Old 8th December 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 10 years
The inserts on my PV-14 are as follows, I am interested in running each into the back of my Tascam-1642,

Would I have to do the one click method or is there even a way to send signal only in this configuration?

Insert (32)
1⁄4” TRS connector allows external signal processors to be inserted into the channel signal path. Tip=Send;
Ring=Return; Sleeve=Ground.
Old 1st November 2010 | Show parent
  #12
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jefferson.hills's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Im going to give this a try. It sounds like a likely solution, but damn, the opportunity to do a test drive would be nice, LOL
Old 1st November 2010 | Show parent
  #13
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NF Audio's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
This may have been mentioned already, but if it suits your scenareo at all you can of course use a regular insert cable (pushed in the whole way) and use the send as your direct mic pre signal into the DAW and the return as your 'tape return' from you DAW.
Old 20th November 2010
  #14
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Fizzyhair's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Mixer insert as direct out question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NF Audio
This may have been mentioned already, but if it suits your scenareo at all you can of course use a regular insert cable (pushed in the whole way) and use the send as your direct mic pre signal into the DAW and the return as your 'tape return' from you DAW.
If I wanted to do this (have a stunning sounding desk without direct outs I want to use) would I be right in thinking the returns and send would be post desk EQ?
Old 20th November 2010 | Show parent
  #15
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5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
On most consoles the insert is pre-EQ/pre-Master fader.

Any desk with tip send/ring return should work with this trick. I haven't tried the TRS to TS adapter that Ethan mentions, but I've got a couple at home. I'll give it a try, it would certainly be the easiest way to do this.

Most mixers in the $600+ range are going to have direct outs, pre-EQ/pre-fader which take care of this for you.
Old 14th February 2011 | Show parent
  #16
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
insert as input

hi there, what about the other way, using the insert return as input from outboard preamp?the goal is to bypass the mixer's preamp. I have dedicated cable for insert direct out. can I use the same cable for this task also? this is ts-trs cable where on trs side the tip and the ring are bridged. the other dilema is balanced preamp out vs unbalanced insert. greets
Old 14th February 2011 | Show parent
  #17
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loujudson's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by baze sax ➑️
hi there, what about the other way, using the insert return as input from outboard preamp?the goal is to bypass the mixer's preamp. I have dedicated cable for insert direct out. can I use the same cable for this task also? this is ts-trs cable where on trs side the tip and the ring are bridged. the other dilema is balanced preamp out vs unbalanced insert. greets
No, that cable will put both preamps feeding the insert. Use an unbalanced TS cable to go onto the insert.

Or, you could simply use the lie imput balanced! (depending on the mixer, of course.)

L
Old 14th February 2011 | Show parent
  #18
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recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I did this with my multi-rig when I first got started and couldn't afford mic splits. TRS at the insert, with the TR shorted inside the connector. Unbalanced TS into my interface. One click sucks. Often very unreliable. I even made a few Y cables that allow continued use of the insert jack as designed, and connected my feed in parallel to the send. If it's at home or in your studio, go for it. If live, don't waste your time unless you are the engineer at the mixer and don't mix with gain knobs.
Old 14th February 2011 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loujudson ➑️
Use these:
Hosa DOC-106 Insert Adaptor
and you don't have to worry about the one click trick. Some mixers will not hold the plug securely at one click, this bridges the tip and ring securely.
L
This. I can't telly how many beat old club mixers get crackly when you try the one-click trick. Never worked in real life for me, so I made my own "normalled TRS" - TS cables for picking off signals from a mixer for recording.
Old 1st March 2011 | Show parent
  #20
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Remeniz's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This is something i'm looking into. I've seen a couple of nice mixers, some Soundcrafts with Direct Outs and some Allen & Heath with just Inserts.

I was thinking. Can't I just use a standard insert cable and use the send to go into my MotU and the return to come from the MotU?

Also the I/O at the Insert would be un-balanced. Would the levels be ok though?

This way I could maybe use CueMix to then adjust the amount of signal going to the EQ on the board and have the clean signal into the DAW software.

Old 9th March 2011 | Show parent
  #21
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🎧 10 years
I have tried this method of inserting an unbalanced jack 'one click' at insert point to tap off a feed from my mixer to my DAW as not to interupt the signal in the mixer track. Works ok, but...

If i setup the mixer channel input gain to read 0dB PFL (optimum) i find that the signal at my recording interface is too hot, so i switch the input mode from -10dB to +4dB on interface, then the signal is too low !!

Using behringer SL2442FX Pro desk with M-Audio Delta 1010 rackmount recording interface.

Any thoughts ??
Old 20th March 2011 | Show parent
  #22
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by recordinghopkins ➑️
I did this with my multi-rig when I first got started and couldn't afford mic splits. TRS at the insert, with the TR shorted inside the connector. Unbalanced TS into my interface. One click sucks. Often very unreliable. I even made a few Y cables that allow continued use of the insert jack as designed, and connected my feed in parallel to the send. If it's at home or in your studio, go for it. If live, don't waste your time unless you are the engineer at the mixer and don't mix with gain knobs.
Were the Y cables you made stereo on one side (for the insert to continue to function) and the other side TS to send to your recorder ? If so did that allow you to send signal to your recorder and use insert FX at the same time without any problems ? I have been curious about making something like this myself but i wasnt sure if you could make a simple Y cable and achieve both objectives.
Old 20th March 2011 | Show parent
  #23
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recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Think about it this way:
It's a 1/4" TRS Male to Female cable, with an unbalanced TS cable attached parallel to the tip and sleeve. This way you have two connections to the insert send, and one to the return. Make the male to female cable short, ~8-10 inches, and the TS leg no longer than about 10 feet, since it's unbalanced.

Or, You can make three way TRS to three TS cables, if you really wanted to, with two of them connected parallel on the tip and sleeve.
Old 20th March 2011 | Show parent
  #24
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🎧 10 years
cheers.. thats what i thought.. so it all worked ok for you ?

the cable i want to create is the same except i will have male TRS to female TRS and female TS, then just plug a normal cable into the TS and off to the recorder.. that would just make things a bit more modular for me..

here is the full details of my situation.

https://gearspace.com/board/remote-p...ml#post6455917
Old 21st March 2011 | Show parent
  #25
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recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Worked great. This was my solution to the same scenario you describe in the other thread. Obviously, an isolated mic level split is always preferred, but before my kit grew this was a quick and dirty way of getting the job done.
Old 21st March 2011 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 10 years
cool.. yeah i will always try and use splitters first and direct out second if its pre EQ/insert/fader.. but the odd times i cant get any of that its nice to know i could still be able to get a half decent send..
Old 6th October 2013
  #27
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🎧 5 years

with my yamaha mg the I/O send is reverse-phased how do I compinsate
Old 6th October 2013 | Show parent
  #28
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kosty's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Call ➑️
with my yamaha mg the I/O send is reverse-phased how do I compinsate
Switch Pin 2 and 3 on the cable ?
Old 7th October 2017
  #29
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🎧 10 years
This all seems a little overly complex for the matter at hand, but it is worth clarifying for future reference...

I seem to recall, that on a TRS insert jack, all I had to do to get the direct out was to insert a TS regular-ass 1/4 cable

The tip takes the signal the ring puts it back, so by using a tip only cable, I take the signal and go make a sandwich.

The half-way in (sorry honey it's cold in here) method is only for TRS cables where I don't want the signal to be returned.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong,
Old 9th October 2017 | Show parent
  #30
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recordinghopkins's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by terrible.dee ➑️

The tip takes the signal the ring puts it back, so by using a tip only cable, I take the signal and go make a sandwich.
This would create a short between the return and common.
Tip + Sleeve is send
Ring + Sleeve is return.

What you want is to short the tip and ring to keep continuity.
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