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Big guitars
Old 19th November 2002
  #1
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Big guitars

http://www.wdwig.com/m_rnrcguitar.jpg

I was just talking with Neil tonight about guitar sounds and stuff. What do you do when the players are pretty much in love with the way their amps sound and the sounds aren't really working for and with the band?
Old 19th November 2002
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
get a di in the chain, baby...

I can almost allways find a way to convince a guitarist that a direct signal will be a good idea it is one of my better abilities..

that or if the guy seems at all capable of listening to reason, I willl record a pass with a couple of diff tones and they willl usally choose the right one ( or the band will choose for them)
Old 19th November 2002
  #3
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah, I had to resort to the DI trick once. Tracking a second time with an alternate sound was not really an option seeing how many freakin'punches it took to get that one ok track... I was VERY grateful for my direct track at mix time!
Old 19th November 2002
  #4
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Never really DI guitars that much. And if I do, haven't ever used it.

How do you guys end up using them? Re-amp, Ampfarm (or equiv.) or leave em' clean?

And what, in your opinions, are the best DI and Re-amp devices you've used?

I reckon that I'll be doing more DI'ing in the new studio so I can keep the guide guitar tracks while tracking drums (we don't have enough seperation to have the whole band playing live and LOUD grudge )

R.
Old 19th November 2002
  #5
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Di and re-amp..

But I wouldnt say it was a "magic' cure..

Could help you in a bind...

Then you are left with doing stuff behind their back..

(not an unknown practice these days)

Old 19th November 2002
  #6
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
No matter what your eventually gonna have to change their town so I do it while tracking. There is a terible disease going around where all these rock guys think if you play through a rectifier you are automatically gonna sound like P Roach, I play CDS that they think sounds good and if they try to pull the whole"well i think you arent micing it right ****. I tell them where the door is and that if they dont trust me they should record with someone who they trust or before that I put on other CDs I have done and they hear the guitar tones and understand I know what I am doing.
Old 19th November 2002
  #7
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Tim L's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Di and re-amp..

But I wouldnt say it was a "magic' cure..
I agree. Sure, you can change the amp and or amp settings by using a re-amp (mic placement, selection, yada yada) but you can't change the instrument, PUP's, or the performance. So, in essence, all you're doing really is applying a kind of glorified 'EQ'. A useful option at times but as Jules mentioned, not a "magic cure". I mostly use my re-amp for creative stuff rather than 'fix it' kinda things... usually.

As for the original question, I'll just play back the take and ask if everybody likes it. Usually someone's going to ask "what do you think?". I'll say why I don't think it works and ask if I can change it. If everyone in the room says "no way"... that's it, I push the red button and off we go. What else are you gonna do really? Of course if your producing then you obviously have a larger responsibility to convince them it sucks.

By the way Jay, what gauge strings does that big pig take?...
Old 20th November 2002
  #8
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davemc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yes one of the problems since I got the dual recti a few months ago is backing off the sound so it does not destroy the whole mix. I went through the di stage a few times, always find that you end up with bits everywhere with cuts and dropins.
Old 20th November 2002
  #9
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
yeah, I think you guys all have some good and valid points. i did take a direct signal on guitars for some (not all) of the stuff that we recorded. in some cases it is difficult to explain however, why you changed the guitar tone after the part has been recorded.

when I was talking about this with Jay I think part of the problem that I have is that I'm in the band that I am recording. I think if we had done the recording with another engineer at another studio and I was just the bass player it's possbile that the whole discussion process about guitar tones would have gone differently.

do any of you also perform in the bands that you record? any helpful hints or experiences that you want to share?

- neil
Old 20th November 2002
  #10
Moderator emeritus
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by nodell

do any of you also perform in the bands that you record? any helpful hints or experiences that you want to share?

-
The biggest hint, from my experience as a bassist and as a producer is to make someone be in charge of the final decisions. with 5 or 6 opinions, you may NEVER reach a consensus - at some point, someone needs to choose so you can move on. The band needs to pick a 'leader' before you get too far into the process.
Old 21st November 2002
  #11
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Maybe I should start a new thread...

"And what, in your opinions, are the best DI and Re-amp devices you've used?"

R.
Old 21st November 2002
  #12
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
...with 5 or 6 opinions, you may NEVER reach a consensus - at some point, someone needs to choose so you can move on. The band needs to pick a 'leader' before you get too far into the process.
Isn't that called a producer?
Old 21st November 2002
  #13
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah, that's what it was called the last time I checked. Part of the problem is that some of the sounds aren't really approiate for the part played IMHO. Case in point, one song had some cool harmonics with a bit of delay (I added more) that came in at the start of a verse. Rather then being clean, chimey and bright they were dark and pretty overdriven. Or the last song where the guitars appear in the chorus with big power chords, rather then a big slightly overdriven sound there was this gained out over the top fizz. Thankfully the room mic was darker and beefier and I manged to EQ that into shape. Even though most of the tracks do have a DI and Amp Farm is there I'd rather use the sounds that were tracked if I can.
Old 22nd November 2002
  #14
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groundcontrol's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I agree 100%. Good luck man!
Old 22nd November 2002
  #15
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Yeah, I find that's one of the hardest conversations to have with a guitarist.

Trying to explain that an over-distorted guitar doesn't always make it sound bigger doesn't usually go down very well with unexperienced players.

R.
Old 5th December 2002
  #16
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
I think it is a maturity thing with guitar players.

Ol' Betsey: I found that out one day by accident. One day toying around in a guitar shop, years before I ever thought about engineering, and mixing.

I hoopked up this guitar to this amp, and I just started jamming, the I looked tat the amp, and all the nobs were like on 5.

It was the first time I had ever jammed out a distorted sound without feeling the need to push the gain to 10. Also without sucking out all of the mids, and boosting the lows, and high end.

I gradually started backing off of my gain then as a guitar player.

When I started recording I noticed a huge difference in the focus of the over all guitar sound ( when i did not kick the gain all the way up.)

Anyway, when it comes to getting an inexperienced musician to trust you, you almost have to get down on a level with them, and do some quick schooling on tone. Help them to understand what is happening, and why you are doing what you are doing, and then they respect you for it. It makes things much easier during the rest of the recording process.

That may be easier said than done sometimes, but its a people business. If you are not a people person, get hooked up with someone who is. It will make a huge difference in how people see you.
Old 17th December 2002
  #17
Here for the gear
 
gabrielk's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
As for the original question, I'll just play back the take and ask if everybody likes it. Usually someone's going to ask "what do you think?". I'll say why I don't think it works and ask if I can change it. If everyone in the room says "no way"... that's it, I push the red button and off we go. What else are you gonna do really? Of course if your producing then you obviously have a larger responsibility to convince them it sucks.
Ditto... This usually does it. And if it doesn't, I don't feel it's my responsibility to change it. If I REALLY can't stand it and think it's absolutely detrimental to the band, and that all of us will suffer public humiliation and bad marriages because of the guitar sound, I'll speak to the most chummy member of the band about it as an outside and let the strength of my feelings be known. In some cases where I know the band well, I feel comfortable telling them flat out that the sound doesn't work. At worst, we'll track a second guitar with different tones and I'll be able to mix away the awful sounding ones. But I don't really feel the need to resort to these sorts of methods...thankfully. 9.5 times out of 10, it's like the above quoted scenario.
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