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AI and the future of music
Old 21st October 2022
  #1
AI and the future of music

About time we had this discussion here -

https://futurism.com/the-byte/ai-music-text-prompts

https://globalnews.ca/news/9193451/ai-generated-music/

https://musically.com/2022/10/10/goo...-music-models/

The RIAA response

https://torrentfreak.com/riaa-flags-...threat-221017/

No-one likes to be a luddite and everyone wants to be chill, but this is coming soon and it'd be better for this industry to be aware and discuss it now rather than too late (like the concept art industry).
Old 21st October 2022
  #2
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
About time we had this discussion here -

https://futurism.com/the-byte/ai-music-text-prompts

https://globalnews.ca/news/9193451/ai-generated-music/

https://musically.com/2022/10/10/goo...-music-models/

The RIAA response

https://torrentfreak.com/riaa-flags-...threat-221017/

No-one likes to be a luddite and everyone wants to be chill, but this is coming soon and it'd be better for this industry to be aware and discuss it now rather than too late (like the concept art industry).
One of the upcoming things is that AI generated music will replace most generic music for video/reels/ads. Same as AI generated models will let you get rid of consent forms and personality rights of the picture.

Anything background music might be affected first. For popular music I think you'll still mostly need real personas that perform, are involved in love, scandals, and mimic a place for projecting their fans' emotions to.
Old 21st October 2022 | Show parent
  #3
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
i'm in this business to interact and communicate with human beings, friends, (local) community members, musicians, composers, conductors, technicians - i'm pretty sure this is the case for most other folks too.

no way on earth i'm gonna sit in my studio listening to a remote computer farm 'creating art' and i won't be touring with robots either - couldn't even have a drink with them after the gig! ;-)
Old 21st October 2022
  #4
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🎧 10 years
There's some 60 million new individuals on the planet each year, why take away their jobs?
Old 21st October 2022
  #5
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🎧 5 years
AI is gonna make the already lazy human(s) more lazier. We need to take music back from the rise of the machines.
Old 21st October 2022 | Show parent
  #6
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1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
AI is gonna make the already lazy human(s) more lazier. We need to take music back from the rise of the machines.
Yeah, and we all thought the Matrix was sci-fi. While we're not in a pod, we're in cramped living conditions around the world, staring into screens all day, living an alternative life in the metaverse and it's only going to get worse.

Eventually we'll turn back into amoeba and slither further into our couches...
Old 21st October 2022
  #7
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
it's been around for decades
Old 21st October 2022
  #8
Gear Nut
 
How many of you have spent some time poking around the AI-Art scene? Like Stable Diffusion?

https://old.reddit.com/r/StableDiffusion/




It has an amazing cheapening effect. Spend a few days looking at this stuff, or making this stuff, then look at a Salvador Dali canvas. Dali's stuff doesn't look so impressive any more. The visual image already got massively cheapened by the web and photoshop - now we're opening a firehose of compelling images. The brain accomodates and all images become "meh".
Old 21st October 2022
  #9
Gear Addict
 
Music is so repetitive and restrained these days, AI could definitely be the co-pilot, or in many genres, the pilot.

I feel the same about mastering. It’s being restrained by a set of rules set forth by the DSPs and social media, and AI is getting better each year. How many are just using Ozone presets these days. Sure us engineer types will be against it, but the artists and labels looking to save at every turn and have things done right now, will use it to it’s fullest. It’s less than 5 years out imho.
Old 21st October 2022
  #10
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🎧 5 years
@ GrammynOut2 AI is gonna deaden music. Crazy thing is I still want to make music while consciously choosing to never use AI, period.
Old 21st October 2022
  #11
Gear Guru
 
🎧 20 years
It's been 15 years since a human beat a computer at chess. Have people stopped playing chess? Have people suddenly developed an interest in following games where one computer plays against another? No, if anything there seems to be a resurgence of interest in chess played by humans.

As far as composition, or mastering, when it gets to the point that you can't tell the difference, is there a difference? If you need to be told: "this was created by a human" does it suddenly sound better?

I scarcely have the time to listen to music I actually like. I think I will program an AI to sit in front of my speakers and listen to all the AI music that is generated.
Attached Thumbnails
AI and the future of music-nobody-plays-instruments-anymore-archie.jpg  

Last edited by joeq; 21st October 2022 at 09:40 PM..
Old 21st October 2022
  #12
All I can say, TMZ is going to be really boring when AI takes over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
About time we had this discussion here -
.
What is there to discuss? The problem with music, and the creative arts across the board isn't lack on content. Its lack of money to go around. There are1,000s and 1,000s of talented and creative people making and releasing music every single day. They just can't get paid for it. What can AI bring to the table as a solution to this problem? Nothing.
Old 21st October 2022
  #13
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🎧 15 years
Some day the tan pants blooze daddies will rise up and teach the world what 'real music' is!
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 ➡️
Some day the tan pants blooze daddies will rise up and teach the world what 'real music' is!
Post of the year 🕺
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #15
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JL1000's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut2 ➡️
Music is so repetitive and restrained these days, AI could definitely be the co-pilot, or in many genres, the pilot.

I feel the same about mastering. It’s being restrained by a set of rules set forth by the DSPs and social media, and AI is getting better each year. How many are just using Ozone presets these days. Sure us engineer types will be against it, but the artists and labels looking to save at every turn and have things done right now, will use it to it’s fullest. It’s less than 5 years out imho.
Replacing the engineers is better than replacing the musicians!
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #16
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AfterViewer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
AI is gonna make the already lazy human(s) more lazier. We need to take music back from the rise of the machines.
Yes. Except, we are the machines.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrateaudio ➡️

What is there to discuss? The problem with music, and the creative arts across the board isn't lack on content. Its lack of money to go around. There are1,000s and 1,000s of talented and creative people making and releasing music every single day. They just can't get paid for it. What can AI bring to the table as a solution to this problem? Nothing.
Well, no one is owed a living, much less a living doing art.

Getting paid for recorded music was just a tiny "blip" in the history of our species. An accidental confluence of the technology tying the music to a physical object. That's gone now, without AI having anything at all to do with it.

AI will eventually "solve" the problem of musicians having to pay for engineering services, right? Meaning they get to keep a little bit more of their pittance. Right about the time it "solves" the problem of shows and venues and movies having to pay for background music. An entertainment industry looking for ways to spend even less money on 'product' will gravitate towards AI as a solution.

But In this regard, Music is no different from everything else! There will come a time when very few humans will have any meaningful Work to do. They will all need to find a hobby to occupy themselves.

May I suggest music?
Old 22nd October 2022
  #18
Gear Guru
 
🎧 20 years
In any case, I think we still have a good few years left.



Old 22nd October 2022
  #19
Interesting and slightly dishearteningly tepid responses so far. Though not entirely unexpected, it's kinda similar to what I saw in the concept art community before Dal-E beta and Stable Diffusion appeared. Things heated up after people realized just what was going on but by then it's a little too late. I hope people won't remain blasé till it's too late, music, human music means a great deal to me. Maybe people are perhaps just scared and not willing to just call it, I know that if this were my industry I'd be fighting tooth and nail. It's not a niche field that was already only for a small subset of retirees and funded through competition like chess. It's everyone's ability to make money from music.

Maybe it's not clear that this is a tool for consumers rather than for producers. It's designed to replace musicians, and even the entire human chain. So perhaps for a while a music exec might imagine 'hey I can save money, just put in a prompt for a backing track, generate pop hits and have my "artist" sing over it.'. It's however quite conceivable that it won't be long before Spotify or other streaming services looking to save money might omit all humans entirely, at the least for radio like channels. Why bother with record companies at all? And it's not like you need a lot of execs.

It's also perhaps not clear how fast this is evolving to all. Check out the latest tools rather than basing opinion on the distant past and expect them to be artifact free in under a year.

Unfortunately live bands can be replaced, and shared experience of music doesn't seem to matter as much to many kids these days who listen to their own streams separately. As someone mentioned this cheapens the content to the point of inconsequentiality. But also just think of the hologram acts, Gorillaz etc. Classical music and concerts may survive, but imagine it going back to pre-recording era. Or a situation where you don't control your own identity and "creative output" (as concept artists are finding happening to them now).

Personally I think it's incredibly important not just for musicians but for the economy as a whole that AI that's designed for consumers rather than as a tool to aid creators is heavily regulated ASAP, and we can't depend on a government to wake up to this on their own, except to kowtow to whichever tech titan gives them the biggest handout.

They won't consider how much of the GDP is intangible services (roughly ~80% in the US), even a small shift there and loss of livelihood could result in both substantial loss of GDP and additional expense through joblessness, not to mention economic stagnation as money accretes around a very few players not known to trickle down their already astronomical wealth. In raw economic terms it's building a sword to fall on out of fear of missing out, of falling behind competitors on their fast path to hari-kari. From what I've seen unlike other disruptive changes in technology it doesn't open up new opportunities either, only closing ones down, it only frees us up to do the kinds of physical tasks that computers aren't yet adept at. I'm pretty sure no country needs that many plumbers...

The field of music, the RIAA and so on is the one everyone else is currently looking to to put a stop to this. I hope you guys realize just how important you are.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
Well, no one is owed a living, much less a living doing art.

Getting paid for recorded music was just a tiny "blip" in the history of our species. An accidental confluence of the technology tying the music to a physical object. That's gone now, without AI having anything at all to do with it.

AI will eventually "solve" the problem of musicians having to pay for engineering services, right? Meaning they get to keep a little bit more of their pittance. Right about the time it "solves" the problem of shows and venues and movies having to pay for background music. An entertainment industry looking for ways to spend even less money on 'product' will gravitate towards AI as a solution.

But In this regard, Music is no different from everything else! There will come a time when very few humans will have any meaningful Work to do. They will all need to find a hobby to occupy themselves.

May I suggest music?
Everyone wants to cut out the middle man, I mean hey, who doesn't want to save money? Of course all the while not realizing that they're the middle man to the next guy...

We think about wealth in the worst possible way for the economy as a whole, and it causes all the failings in economics, we're still in the mindset of cave dwellers clinging on to the rocks under our rock pillow!

If instead of seeing the accrued - the bottom line in the ledger as wealth, but instead we saw flow - money spent and utilized as wealth then we'd have fixed some major failings of modern capitalism and could avoid these sorts of problems entirely, after all when spending money is wealth middle men cease to be a negative on the ledger.

Everyone would be better off and every naive and idealistic claim made about things like trickle down economics etc would in fact be true.

Instead we have been conditioned to believe that our wealth is the static finance rather than fluid. despite the fact that static fixed wealth is intangible and of zero actual value because money only has value when it is in motion - exchanged for goods and services, whereby it gains the value of said good or service purely for the duration of the transaction!

However we must deal with what is, and in the economy that is, this is a pretty f*ing dangerous move.
Old 22nd October 2022
  #21
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noah330's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As long as AI doesn’t replace The Kardashian Show I’m down.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #22
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Interesting and slightly dishearteningly tepid responses so far. Though not entirely unexpected, it's kinda similar to what I saw in the concept art community before Dal-E beta and Stable Diffusion appeared. Things heated up after people realized just what was going on but by then it's a little too late. I hope people won't remain blasé till it's too late, music, human music means a great deal to me. Maybe people are perhaps just scared and not willing to just call it, I know that if this were my industry I'd be fighting tooth and nail. It's not a niche field that was already only for a small subset of retirees and funded through competition like chess. It's everyone's ability to make money from music.

Maybe it's not clear that this is a tool for consumers rather than for producers. It's designed to replace musicians, and even the entire human chain. So perhaps for a while a music exec might imagine 'hey I can save money, just put in a prompt for a backing track, generate pop hits and have my "artist" sing over it.'. It's however quite conceivable that it won't be long before Spotify or other streaming services looking to save money might omit all humans entirely, at the least for radio like channels. Why bother with record companies at all? And it's not like you need a lot of execs.

It's also perhaps not clear how fast this is evolving to all. Check out the latest tools rather than basing opinion on the distant past and expect them to be artifact free in under a year.

Unfortunately live bands can be replaced, and shared experience of music doesn't seem to matter as much to many kids these days who listen to their own streams separately. As someone mentioned this cheapens the content to the point of inconsequentiality. But also just think of the hologram acts, Gorillaz etc. Classical music and concerts may survive, but imagine it going back to pre-recording era. Or a situation where you don't control your own identity and "creative output" (as concept artists are finding happening to them now).

Personally I think it's incredibly important not just for musicians but for the economy as a whole that AI that's designed for consumers rather than as a tool to aid creators is heavily regulated ASAP, and we can't depend on a government to wake up to this on their own, except to kowtow to whichever tech titan gives them the biggest handout.

They won't consider how much of the GDP is intangible services (roughly ~80% in the US), even a small shift there and loss of livelihood could result in both substantial loss of GDP and additional expense through joblessness, not to mention economic stagnation as money accretes around a very few players not known to trickle down their already astronomical wealth. In raw economic terms it's building a sword to fall on out of fear of missing out, of falling behind competitors on their fast path to hari-kari. From what I've seen unlike other disruptive changes in technology it doesn't open up new opportunities either, only closing ones down, it only frees us up to do the kinds of physical tasks that computers aren't yet adept at. I'm pretty sure no country needs that many plumbers...

The field of music, the RIAA and so on is the one everyone else is currently looking to to put a stop to this. I hope you guys realize just how important you are.
Could also have an opposite effect and spur on more authentic, live-oriented acts and all the loop-based, assembled, tuned, perfected in a DAW music is replaced by AI.

Ain't nuthin like the real thing baby.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
Well, no one is owed a living, much less a living doing art.

Getting paid for recorded music was just a tiny "blip" in the history of our species. An accidental confluence of the technology tying the music to a physical object. That's gone now, without AI having anything at all to do with it.

AI will eventually "solve" the problem of musicians having to pay for engineering services, right? Meaning they get to keep a little bit more of their pittance. Right about the time it "solves" the problem of shows and venues and movies having to pay for background music. An entertainment industry looking for ways to spend even less money on 'product' will gravitate towards AI as a solution.

But In this regard, Music is no different from everything else! There will come a time when very few humans will have any meaningful Work to do. They will all need to find a hobby to occupy themselves.

May I suggest music?
I think AI (and ML and Neural networks and what not) are all very misunderstood concepts and buzz words. It’s trendy to be a futurist and read about them, but I still fail to see how they map to the real world and real world problems. I sometimes wonder if it’s just a lot of geeks who have run out of idea of how to make Excel or search engines better, so they shift their focus on sound and music technology. Which is all great, except for the simple fact that anyone can make “sound” in their living room. You don’t need big fancy computing to work with and manipulate sound. It just comes down to personal choice and decisions of how simple or complicated do you what to make things for yourself and what you want to spend your time on? You can buy an acoustic guitar and strum away and write songs and make “sound”. You can buy an upright piano and grab some sheet music from a library and sit down and learn how to play classical music and make “sound”. Or you can start delving into DAW’s and VI’s and plugins and make trendy sound design experiments and make “sound”. It’s a personal choice. You don’t need computer programmers with PhD’s to help you along the way to make “sound”.

One of the big benefits of AI and automation is to make things faster and cheaper and indistinguishable. Do you really need more music made cheaper and faster in today's world of streaming where 1,000s of tracks get dumped per minute on the Internet? I don't think so. There is no supply problem in the real world when in comes to music and sound to listen to. It’s all great if you are dealing with factories and fast food. But how are you really going to apply that to creativity and the arts – of which music still very much is a part of. The concept of automatic presents has been around for ages. AI making new presets isn’t going to offer anything new on the table. Once you get into the creative realm where competition for high creativity and uniqueness is very intense – you are in the business of creating something new and unique and different and not in the business of creating something that is readily available across the board from anywhere.

If the realm of the visual arts such as the modernism in film and TV shows – music is just one very small component that makes up the entire experience the audience sees and hears on screen. It would make very little sense to spend entire fortunes on unique CGI, and unique cinematography and then just turn and totally cheap out on the music and sound design and include cookie cutter audio that anyone with a desktop can make in their homes. Just my 2 cents.
Old 22nd October 2022
  #24
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🎧 5 years
@ nitrateaudio tech bros are killing humanity in music and it shows 😢
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Instead we have been conditioned to believe that our wealth is the static finance rather than fluid. despite the fact that static fixed wealth is intangible and of zero actual value because money only has value when it is in motion - exchanged for goods and services, whereby it gains the value of said good or service purely for the duration of the transaction!.
But do people believe in static wealth, really? I don't know anyone who - when faced with the following choices - would choose A

A: You get $10,000 in salary, you spend $9000 and have $1000 left over at the end of the year
B: You get $50,000 in salary, you spend $50,000 and have $0 left over at the end of the year.


Quote:
Unfortunately live bands can be replaced
Will they? Will people pay $100 to sit in theater to listen to something coming out of a speaker that is the same thing that they can hear coming out of a speaker at home for free? IMO, there will always be a market for live concerts with live humans on stage. And if there isn't, it will be because people's tastes have changed, not because AI is "cheaper".

Playing live is how musicians made their living for the 6,000 or so years that human societies could support full time artists. Where all hands were not needed for hunting and gathering. Only for the 20th century and this part of the 21st was recording music even possible. And while recording will remain possible, extracting money from the recording is going to be harder and harder. And again, AI had nothing to do with it.

Quote:
it's kinda similar to what I saw in the concept art community before Dal-E beta and Stable Diffusion appeared. Things heated up after people realized just what was going on but by then it's a little too late.
Too late for what? Do you think anyone had the ability to "stop" it? Even the will to stop it? Name one thing that humans have discovered or invented and then put aside forever, saying: "nope, too dangerous." Plenty of people in and out of the music industry saw what was going to happen to recorded music with the introduction of digital. The end of physical product. Infinite copies with no loss. No way to withhold the product from those who do not pay. They went ahead and did it anyway.

When the first atomic bomb was going to be detonated in New Mexico, there were some respectable scientists who calculated that there was a small but real chance that the detonation would set the Earth's atmosphere on fire. A chain reaction engulfing the entire atmosphere. They went ahead and did it anyway.

That's how we roll.
Old 22nd October 2022
  #26
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Calagan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
The solution would be a Butlerian Jihad...
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind"

Joke apart, most released music today is already made by people that look and behave like AI. Listen to most trailer music or film music : it's always the same shit, the same sounds, the same structure.
EDM and urban music suffer from the same problem : most songs are just a good copy of the last year's hit.
In the movie industry, most blockbusters now look like a good compilation of a scenarist brainstorming, made by the head of the marketing department of Starbuck...

Capitalism already transformed the whole world into a plastic reproduction of life (or a war zone, depending on where you live).

So yes, in this field of commercial stupid music, IA will take the jobs of the humans because they already work like computers, but in a worst way.

But IA is only able to copy or combine existing stuff, not to create something with any deep meaning.
How could an IA create something like the Rite of Spring, Sufjan Stevens' Carrie & Lowell or John Coltrane's Love Supreme ?
It's not possible, because to create such music you need to be a living being, you need to have a life and speak about this life in your art. AI is just a "combinator" of previous pieces of music made by humans.
So maybe it will be able to mimic Stravinsky just like Berstein did mimic Stravinsky's music in the 50's, but not much more (listen to the Rite of Spring, first performed in 1913, and then some West Side Story instrumentals from 1957)...

So in some way, maybe AI will just make the music business a bit cleaner...
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Interesting and slightly dishearteningly tepid responses so far.
They don't quite see it. And to be fair, it may not materialize. The full-blown DRM nightmare never materialized, although it's baked into our CPUs and BIOS's now.

You can tell your ipod to generate an infinite stream of mid-80s Depeche Mode. And most of it will be better than anything DM actually did. A lot of it will make you laugh with the childish creativity that AI can bring. And after listening to this stream for a few months, you'll be maxed out for life. Better to hear birds and traffic noise.

When you have one great AI-generated Depeche song, you tell a friend about it. When you have a million, there's nothing to say.

Oh, and some posters are taking refuge in the idea that AI-music will be stiff and robotic. Looking at AI paintings challenges that. Whatever is wrong with them - and there's definitely something wrong - they're not stiff or robotic.
Old 22nd October 2022
  #28
Gear Nut
 
Tech people are psycho and are hellbent on destroying our society. They lack even the slightest shred of humanity or ethics. Imagine getting a bunch of really smart people together and using bleeding edge technology and your goal is to put artists and musicians out of business? Why not automate jobs that are dangerous or build better creative tools for artists? What is the ethical justification for even pursuing this line of research at all.

It's just more copyright theft pure and simple. These algorithms aren't actually "intelligent" in any way. They just sample bits and pieces of other peoples work and mix them together in a way that seems like a novelty for the moment.

I'm not too worried because I think AI is mostly a scam. The funny thing is that the rules of music are pretty simple and generative and algorithmic music has been around a long time already. The idea of brute forcing a finished recording by training an AI on other people's recorded music seems really stupid to me. It would be a much better approach to make software that understands music theory and composes music from the notes up.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahstlz ➡️
One of the upcoming things is that AI generated music will replace most generic music for video/reels/ads. Same as AI generated models will let you get rid of consent forms and personality rights of the picture.

Anything background music might be affected first. For popular music I think you'll still mostly need real personas that perform, are involved in love, scandals, and mimic a place for projecting their fans' emotions to.
I think this is most accurate. The soundalike/made-to-order/catalog music for background purposes, and the industry around it, will be what definitely goes. And what goes first. I imagine the first AI score will be a newsworthy deal used to draw in viewers.

I think when it comes to the art/artist side of things there will always be an interest in people, though I can definitely see a scene of AI fans coming together.
Old 22nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthesizeme ➡️
Imagine getting a bunch of really smart people together and using bleeding edge technology and your goal is to put artists and musicians out of business? Why not automate jobs that are dangerous or build better creative tools for artists? What is the ethical justification for even pursuing this line of research at all.
They're automating everything, music is just a very small slice. People have been losing jobs to automation since the industrial revolution, dangerous jobs have been replaced by automation for over a century.

By 2030 its expected that 800 million jobs will be replaced by automation. So its not like musicians are being targeted. Its that the tech is finally approaching the ability to effectively automate music making, just one of a long list of jobs being displaced.

The ethics would be argued the other way. . . is it ethical to artificially constrain technological advances to preserve jobs that are effectively outdated and unnecessary? Those who lose jobs have been complaining of this since the invention of the assembly line, but that's more about self-preservation than anything, which isn't exactly an ethical reason to shut things down for others.
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