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Expanding my mic kit for live and recording
Old 9th September 2022
  #91
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I can hear that the two sides of a m130 sound different but it doesn't much matter to me. On the rare occasions I use it in M/S, it's to put "space" around a single player. (That's mostly a studio thing.) My primary "side" mics are MKH 30 (too specialized for you, Bernie) and AKG 414 or OC818. I'm betting that you'll end up buying a '818 pair in the next year or two. Keep in mind that they work great for M/S or Blumlein if you put them vertically on an AEA SMP-17 bar and tilt them appropriately. I posted a picture of this in the past.
Old 9th September 2022 | Show parent
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
I can hear that the two sides of a m130 sound different but it doesn't much matter to me. On the rare occasions I use it in M/S, it's to put "space" around a single player. (That's mostly a studio thing.) My primary "side" mics are MKH 30 (too specialized for you, Bernie) and AKG 414 or OC818. I'm betting that you'll end up buying a '818 pair in the next year or two. Keep in mind that they work great for M/S or Blumlein if you put them vertically on an AEA SMP-17 bar and tilt them appropriately. I posted a picture of this in the past.
Every statement there sounds right to me, including re. the MKH 30. I'd heard the M130 was slightly asymmetrical in response but as Deedeeyah says, for drums OH's you'd never know. Even in other M/S applications it'd have to be good enough unless I got into some pretty esoteric stuff.

And yes, I'm already eyeing off a set of '818's, have been for a while. When I'm ready commercially for a quality set of multi-pattern LDC's, that's the set for me, I'm sure of it. I want to explore Blumlein at some point, I did once with a friend who had a pair of some multi-pattern LDC's I didn't know, in bidirectional mode and we tried it but weren't happy with the result after high expectations. Actually I think we ran into the acoustic problems of that room, a kind of Spanish/Mediterranean-style villa with lots of arches, odd spaces, high and low ceilings, tile and textured render, and we didn't know what we were doing anyway. It was a beautiful house but never intended for music. I didn't know that AEA AMP-17 bar, it looks nice (and it looks expensive!). I'll try again soon with my MK-101-8's.

The ribbon mic I keep looking at really is the Cascade X-15. I would love to try that like in the video on Cascade's site, with a band sited around a single mic, singer, instrument amps and all, very much capturing the room. But the weakness in that recording IMO is the double bass which seems to be one source some ribbons don't do their best on. If I end up doing the work I hope to commercially, small chamber ensembles in nice acoustic spaces, that would be a very interesting mic to me. It's solely intuition drawing me to that mic, without any experience of similar types or any listening tests or comparisons. But I feel that whatever its character, I could make it work or use it where it's best suited. I've got plenty of other options for stereo room miking anyway. Pictured below are some of the stereo options I can put together with my Oktava stuff; I believe using the same mics for multiple configs has a lot to teach me.
EDIT of those photos below, the one I think I need to really try out is the 2 LDC capsules in M-S; they're the cardioid and fig-8 versions of the MK-101, a not-bad mic anyway. I only ever put that together for that photo, same for the mini-pre's with omni caps in A-B 40 and the MK-105's in ORTF. If you imagine these pic's without the 105's, that's a lot of possibilities with not too many accessories on top of the basic Oktava 2-pre/6-capsule set

The thing is, when they do come up X-15's are not outrageously expensive, there are doubtless some that could give a nicer result on more sources but I suspect they're really going to cost. It's not really the time or place to think about pre-amps but I imagine something relatively uncoloured, accurate and "boring" like ISA-series. I'll be starting with my Clarett+ 8Pre (very sadly underused at this point).

For now I've just tried experimenting with my MK-012's and capsules on the Oktava stereo shock mount using a couple of their swivel adapters to do X-Y, ORTF and mid-side into a little Zoom H6. Good enough for me to have a play with some different configs. By the time I try to charge for recordings on-site I need to feel like I'm ready. I'm no beginner but there are significant gaps in my experience. In the Oktava thread when I considered the swivel adapters before buying them, some questioned their worth but honestly they've been one of the best purchases I've made in audio. What it allows me to do is take the same, known capsules and apply them differently, so I can hear those differences. In a pro recording environment you'd have all these ideal choices for every task at hand but I'm at the experimenting stage; I think limiting myself to the same capsules is very helpful that way. I can't always get someone to play or sing for me so I've even been using a little radio as a source in a room or space; it doesn't matter that it's trashy, what's important is the difference I hear when I mic it up using different techniques.
So I've started trying my CM4's, so far in X-Y and ORTF, and I do mean just started. What great little mics for the price, I'm impressed, like everyone said I'd be.

I'm not just buying up as much of the list of well-known mics as possible, they're all chosen with an eye to application, at least potential or hoped-for applications anyway. But at the very least, I get better, I practice my chops and broaden my knowledge and experience. I think I mentioned, my whole kit is *almost* paid for with the money I used to spend on smoking and with the profits from selling custom audio leads. Only something between 10 and 20% of everything I've spent comes out of my pocket above that. I think it's a great investment.
Attached Thumbnails
Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-oktava-mk-012-omni-mk-105-pairs.jpg   Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-oktava-m-s-ldc-2r.jpg   Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-oktava-ortf-sm-msr-1.jpg   Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-mk-102-sm-msr-swivel-joints.jpg   Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-oktava-2-stereo-pairs-r.jpg  

Old 9th September 2022 | Show parent
  #93
Upright piano recording with my mics

David, or anyone who's following, if you had my mic kit and you needed to record a student audition with soloist and piano accompanist, what would you use on the piano? The soloist could be vocals or any instrument, but we're in a school music room or private home, upright piano, let's say it's pushed against a wall of a small room (I need to be ready for exactly this situation). What would you choose out of what you've seen of my mics? You could also include M130 and/or M160 as I'll likely get those.
I'm specifically NOT asking after a grand or baby grand as I've mic'd these before and have some idea how I'd do it. But an upright is something I never had to do.

Of the Oktava stereo pairs (inc. MK-101's just arrived but not pictured) or a couple of CM4's, which is what I have right now, what would you go for?
I've got various moving coils, inc. MD441 and RE20 but only 1 each, also 2 each of M88, M201 and ND46. Sundry condensers are RE520 x2, a single MK-103 and an MKL-2500. How about if I owned 2x MC950's, and of course, OC818's? Let's say it's a mid-priced piano.

What config and position? We want a student audition tape, the piano is for accompaniment, the idea is to hear the soloist clearly and above the piano; the pianist is likely the better player but should be secondary as this is for assessors to hear the candidate's playing.

And if the piano was away from the walls in a bigger space, what then, would you mic up the sounding board? With what?

So many questions, I know, but these are the ones I ask myself all the time. I'd love to know how you'd approach answering them.
Old 9th September 2022
  #94
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The main thing is to get a good balance between the piano and the singer. Expediency usually dictates that one mic them seperately and try for as much isolation as can be managed in a small living room.

Start with a spaced pair of SDC's aimed at the upright piano, usually over the shoulders of the accompianist. The idea is to record the piano as something other than a point source, but not have it occupy the entire playback width. The soloist should be standing behind, to benefit from their nulls, but usually more to one end of the piano or the other, so as to establish eye contact between soloist and accompianist.

For the singer, you want a "natural" presentation, done with a microphone farther away than you're probably used to. A multi-pattern condenser is often called for, because it can be set to figure-eight pattern, with the null used to reject the piano. Figure-eight pattern has good "reach", allowing it to be farther away and capture the singer's actual, unassisted sound. It also helps with low ceilings. By varying the distance, you can balance the direct sound versus the "room sound" which is coming in from the rear lobe. Then you adjust the piano feed level to balance the accompianiment against the soloist. Once this is done, you leave the faders alone and print a fixed balance to stereo. No active mixing or post-session "sweetening" is permitted; you may need to provide a written certification of that.

Things that are not done: No hand-held microphones. No compression, nor "flattering" EQ. High-pass filtering the vocal and shelving EQ on the piano are permissible, IMO, provided they are done at session time as "set and forget". Absolutely no supplementary reverb. The audition committee wants to hear the student's voice, warts and all, as if they were standing nearby in a lesson situation. If you present the singer as heard from the back of a hall, they will assume you're trying to hide something.
Old 10th September 2022 | Show parent
  #95
Thanks so much David, much appreciated. Done like that then the mic choice isn't so difficult, the SDC's I've got now should work well. I thought as much. I was reading about miking up the back of the piano to get the sounding board but I expect a lot of the time it'll be in a small room with the piano against a wall as I said.
Some great tips, very kind. Thanks again
Old 11th September 2022 | Show parent
  #96
I'm pleased with the EV RE520's as vocal mics. I didn't buy them for that but they worked well that way at my last couple of gigs; I figured, why not try, right? And the singers loved them. They're not perfect, to me that presence boost is too big, centered about 4 or 5k and a good 6dB or even more. They're fairly feedback-resistant but when they finally do go it's always in that boost region, no surprises there. From the FR graph you'd think they might sound thin but not so, the roll-off starting at about 200 must be about right to counter proximity. You also have to lower the channel input gain about 12dB vs. most stage vocal mics, this caught me out first time I tried them.

At my gig last night the band did 2 sets, one a Bowie tribute, then they change costumes and singer and become a Queen tribute with the obvious duet at the end. I convinced the Bowie guy to use my MD441, thanks solely to certain photos David posted recently It's a decent vocal mic, absolutely, but I still say in this day and age it's no longer a 1st-choice SR mic for use with floor monitors. It also places demands on the singer to use them correctly; he needed a handheld mic and whenever he wasn't right down the center of its axis it wasn't really that great. Truth is I probably shouldn't have used that gig as an experiment but then the alternative they had was cheap PG58 wireless mics which were quite "meh". They really needed wireless for the Queen set otherwise I'd have absolutely used a 520. The Queen singer *loved* the 520 during soundcheck (often I think this means they like your monitor EQ but this guy's good enough and smart enough to identify the difference, and he did compare it with the wireless mic) and he's now in the market for a wireless version. I've never used an EV RF system, but they turned up with some googling (RE3-RE520, or you could get the capsule to fit other brands' Tx). As a result of which I became aware of the musicstore site in Germany, Thomann's arch rival. Cool! 2 places to go for mics, one of which generally beats the other on price by some small margin, and better, when one is out of stock of one item the other may have them... f'rinstance, I've been considering getting another M201, they're a couple of months away at Thomann but they're in stock and slightly cheaper at MS.

I have to say, my mic kit for use at the type of gigs I do is getting pretty good. There are genuine advantages in having these available, and anyway I'm just enjoying the difference from Ye Olde usual suspects. I may even actually have *enough mics!* but I find this a very difficult idea to get to grips with. I'm still hunting for a better guitar mic, for now the mic that works best for most amps most of the time is really the e906 (sigh... boring) but I'm definitely going to get an M160 when they're available again at the cheaper suppliers. An M88 gave me such a better sound with one very highly-regarded blues-rock player I've known forever, I thought right! That's my guitar mic now! and promptly ordered a 2nd one, now I'm finding it's really not the one for a lot of other players; yes yes I know, someone is going to say "it depends on the situation" (oh? you don't say, whoda thunkit, the situation you say, depends upon, really?). I hear a lot of superlatives re. the M160 on guitar, I wonder though, will that apply live where I really need to close-mic the cabs and won't have the option of setting it back a matter of feet? Will it just not be so great all the time hard up against the grill? Well, it's not going to stop me finding out.

Note to self - I do seem to be becoming an EV and Beyer guy
Old 11th September 2022
  #97
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The 441 is a dynamic mic that sounds a lot like a condenser mic. In an era when condenser mics (except for the occasional AKG 451) were rarely used on stage, that was a valuable thing. These days, condensers rugged enough to be used on stage are easily available and some are much cheaper than a 441, so I've never seen a reason to bother with the later. But I've encountered plenty of female singers who'll ask for a 441, or even bring their own, simply because of the Stevie thing*. I can offer them a condenser mic, but many cases, a Beta 58 would serve them just as well.

The trouble with 441's (and Beta 58's, for that matter) is that many singers aren't disciplined or experienced enough to use that tight a pattern.

* That's certainly the reason the Haim girls bought theirs. Este and Alana never go on stage without the moon necklaces gifted them by Stevie. (They've collected a lot of other vintage gear as well.) But I didn't see any 441's on their current tour, not even for vocal pickup on the drum riser. I think their technical crew talked them into using modern mics that were available as wireless versions.
Old 11th September 2022 | Show parent
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
...
The trouble with 441's (and Beta 58's, for that matter) is that many singers aren't disciplined or experienced enough to use that tight a pattern.
That's exactly what happened last night. I don't think this singer had used one before and it was my idea to give him the 441, I ended up feeling it was a mistake. For that matter it was the first time I'd had one as a vocal mic at one of my gigs. I'd only repeat it if it were on a stand and staying there. I think he was starting to get used to it during the set as the quality of the pickup improved noticeably.

I figured because the 1st half of the set was all Ziggy Stardust-era material it was the right look (OK that's a poor reason to choose a mic, I get that) but it'd have to work because it's a tight pattern, it's resistant to feedback and I can give it enough gain and settings to get a result. Fine in theory but I didn't realise how important it was he remain right on-axis. I just haven't had the experience with the 441. During soundcheck I'd put it on a stand and he used it that way, then for the show he discarded the stand. I thought he was going to play guitar but not so. So I blame myself. It wasn't *bad*, it just wasn't the right choice given what else I had available. Since he didn't depend on wireless I could have given him an RE520, which I now know is a good stage vocals mic, though I still feel that presence/high boost is too much. The only feedback I got was right in that bump. For this type of tribute act the wireless version (RE3-RE520), or the RE520 capsule (RE520-RC3) on another transmitter would be a nice piece of kit. EV have done their homework and they know the science of sound, and the RE-series is their good stuff, IMO. It shows in mics that "take EQ well" as they say; IMO that's a sign of good phase response and poorly designed porting won't respond well to EQ. My Beyers are good that way too.

Anyway, I'm more than pleased with my expanded mic kit. It's a real advantage to me esp. for my freelance work. It's also given me back some excitement and enthusiasm as I look forward to seeing what I can get out of familiar sources. I do love my job anyway, I always have and it's a blessing to do what I do, but to get this renewed buzz after over 30 years doing this, what more could I want? (other than a pay rise )

Next step is to get serious about finding work for my mobile recording service; that's why I originally started buying mics but then I decided it made sense to choose them to support my live work too. I used to believe there was no point as the PA's come with a usable mic kit but now I see the advantages. Every mic has been chosen to work and not be too specific, so for example the RE520 being bought to do choirs but turning out to be a decent vocal mic is a success. I feel I'm spending my money well on this stuff.
Old 11th September 2022
  #99
Lives for gear
Write down 3 separate lists. . .
  1. All of the mics you are currently targeting.
  2. A single ‘one mic’ or ‘one pair’ solution. . .which really could do everything I see in your list of high level objectives. See Don’t You Cry
  3. The minimum nice to have mics to complement the ‘one mic’ solution.

My suggestion—which I realize goes against the flow here—is to go for number two first with a high-end mic or pair. Then start working on number three when the budget recovers.


Unchain my heart,

Ray H.
Old 11th September 2022 | Show parent
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath ➡️
Write down 3 separate lists. . .
  1. All of the mics you are currently targeting.
  2. A single ‘one mic’ or ‘one pair’ solution. . .which really could do everything I see in your list of high level objectives. See Dont You Cry
  3. The minimum nice to have mics to complement the ‘one mic’ solution.

My suggestion—which I realize goes against the flow here—is to go for number two first with a high-end mic or pair. Then start working on number three when the budget recovers.


Unchain my heart,

Ray H.
Ray I'm not aware of a mic like that, something that could do all of the tasks I'm trying to do with my kit. Closest I could think of would probably be a switchable multi-pattern type and for my needs that's likely OC818's...
but my problem is that by far the most audio work I do is live SR; I'll launch my mobile recording service at some point, when I feel ready and I'm not so swamped with demand for my services in SR, and then some high-quality/high-end mic or pair really might stand in for many of my mics now.

But in SR I don't really see how I'd do that. I'm open to suggestions though. If I *had* to choose one type to do everything with for live gigs I can probably narrow it down to a few, but I don't see a need to do that. As you know for that application I can't get around needing a bunch of mics anyway; my gigs use floor monitors mostly with only a few IEM's. We're talking basic rock band bar gig here, that's the bulk of my regular work, though I also get plenty of totally different jobs from time to time too (choir, speech, corporate conference with possible live entertainment, solo/duo/small ensemble...) but the great bulk of it over a PA system to a crowd. For the moment if I record it's a secondary service but I have plans.

Do I understand you correctly then that you're suggesting this for recording? I think I agree, one great quality pair would be more useful than a case of average mics to choose from, but I'm not doing much of that work yet. I sure want to be though.

PS I followed that link, that version of Unchain My Heart sounded gorgeous and makes a great point as a one-mic recording. Nice work.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #101
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🎧 5 years
i've mixed metal bands with mostly schoeps, recorded orchestras with a pair of cheapish ldc's and a dozen of dynamic mics etc. - it wasn't what i wanted and clearly didn't match with my preferences or habits but it was all that was available/got supplied/the production could afford...

my experience/conclusion is that sometimes quantity (in terms of mics) beats quality...

...which is the reason why i often carry a dozen of dynamic mics to a gig, location or studio recording rather than yet another pair of high profile sdc's or multipattern ldc's.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #102
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
i've mixed metal bands with mostly schoeps, recorded orchestras with a pair of cheapish ldc's and a dozen of dynamic mics etc. - it wasn't what i wanted and clearly didn't match with my preferences or habits but it was all that was available/got supplied/the production could afford...

my experience/conclusion is that sometimes quantity (in terms of mics) beats quality...

...which is the reason why i often carry a dozen of dynamic mics to a gig, location or studio recording rather than yet another pair of high profile sdc's or multipattern ldc's.
Great to hear, yes many times I've had to use what is available even when they are not ideal. But sometimes I've had access to mics I was not familiar with, and I thought if only I knew more about them, maybe they would help me.

Expanding my mic kit expands my knowledge as well. I'm sure you noticed every time I get interested in another mic I start relentlessly asking questions! It's because I like to keep learning all I can, even after so many years. I have a pretty good choice of mics now for my needs. The house systems have very standard mics, all decent but there isn't enough variety, and none I haven't used many times before. So it gives me an advantage to have these choices. I probably have all the mics I need but I will never be able to say all the mics I *want* All my dynamic mics are getting used, so are my SDC's. Not all at once, not every gig either, but they were all carefully chosen with good advice and none were a waste. I haven't finished my mics project but it is already a success.

Thanks to everyone who gave advice and answered my questions. I have always loved working in audio and I am only enjoying it more.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #103
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
[. . .] my experience/conclusion is that sometimes quantity (in terms of mics) beats quality...

...which is the reason why i often carry a dozen of dynamic mics to a gig, location or studio recording rather than yet another pair of high profile sdc's or multipattern ldc's.
Your experience and skillsets, dd, would doubtless yield a better result than me with a locker full of high-end mics.

But I did want to inject a thought of constraint for Bernie [and others in similar situations] in respect to pursuit of quantity. Most of his outlined priorities and his current track count restrictions seem to imply a low number of concurrent tracks for the mobile recording activities.

That said, a Josephson C700S is definitely a budget buster in context. But the ideas behind its approach are not.

When I was opening a music store business several decades back, I expressed inventory concerns to Jim Roberts [Roberts Music, Tampa], a previous employer. He assured me that within a very few years I would have far more stock than I would know what to do with. . .and, of course, he was correct.

It is not difficult for a focused, hard-working entrepreneur to put together a substantial number of pedestrian mics over a couple years of investment.

It is harder—at least for me—to leverage them in the creation of art. And thinking about core objectives stated by the OP in his first couple posts, I do expect there is value in considering examples from single and low mic count recordings.

Add to this earlier times—when track count was necessarily limited—we still have a number of reasonable location recordings?

It is often more work for everybody [including the musicians] with one mic scenarios. . .but the environmental constraints of such can press out a superior performance now and again.


No guarantee expressed or implied,

Ray H.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #104
Ray, some great insights, thanks again, hope you don't mind if I divert to some more background that might explain what I'm trying to do. And I apologise in advance, I've always been a rambler and I know it.
I have to emphasise that for now my bread and butter is still sound reinforcement, mostly for live music but some corporate/conference stuff too, and late each year school and church end of year concerts and presentations. It's a good, broad smattering of different requirements.

That said, I'm really looking forward to launching my recording service; I'm really just holding off on it until I feel confident to do so, and I'd like to work with someone who's already more experienced with that facet. My current working life is going well and I'm enjoying it, truth is though I could make room and time for the recording project any time. I just haven't done so yet. It's scary.
I'm probably better informed than most plain ol' bar mixers around here and I started in 1990-91. I don't have a studio or recording history but I don't think I'm ignorant either, I started back then with a diploma studio course, started "doing gigs" believing it was just til I landed a studio job, discovered there aren't any unless you build your own facility, which I was in no position to do, and just kept going. And love it still. I've tried to keep educating myself the whole time, even if I couldn't be hands-on with studio techniques much.

Here in Perth, Western Australia which was almost unique during COVID, we were effectively at zero cases save for a few single-digit incidents, until a day or two before NYE. So we had no tours or big shows but behind our so-called hard border, I had maybe my best 18 months of work in live productions of the 21st century. Venues would normally have brought some feature act from the eastern (Aust) states or overseas, they couldn't do that so it was a renaissance for local performers, and demand for local techs and operators was high. I am, at least, known locally. Same in non-music and corporate events; I doubled my prices to try and get some time off, it actually made me busier by pricing me into a better market. The pressure to accept jobs was intense.

Anyway. I'm basically still on the momentum of that period. I should also explain that until a couple of years before COVID I spent years living pretty much hand-to-mouth, for reasons not worth going into. With the money I saved in the last months of last year I bought my interface and much hardware, all my Oktavas, all kinds of personal equipment and improvements to my standard of living and settled all debt, which had been significant for me. What I mostly did pre-COVID was mix bands in bars but I had experience in most facets of audio, except for much recording. In Perth there aren't many fully commercial studios, but many home and project facilities.

The recording I want to do is pretty specific, and I don't want to build a studio. There's already a huge over-supply here and I already make a living I really enjoy, but I want to tailor it a little. I like being a house and freelance live audio guy at a variety of venues, I'm trying to do something like that but with recording gear instead of a PA, and for an all different world of music. The mobile/site/location recording service will be intentionally low track-count, at least to begin with, because for the market I've chosen I want to go at it in a way that demands a certain purity of approach; an old-fashioned working style but on newer equipment. It should be able to use a low number of mics the right way to capture a performance, and not a million spot mics so I can "fix it" later. I want to put some pressure on myself. You can probably understand what I'm getting at, better than I can explain it.

I also hope to do student auditions, another COVID-spinoff since some of the advanced schools started accepting video submissions. That'll often involve a student soloist and piano accompaniment; my live experience tells me it needn't all be high-end condensers either, a well-chosen moving coil can absolutely match many solo instrumentalists or singers, depending on many things as ever.
This appeals to me because the examiners want straight, clean recordings that are *honest*, and they won't fall for flattering production tricks. I want to do it simple, but I need to know my chops and do it right, too. A stereo pair for piano, and a pair or single mic for the candidate, in one room making me have to check for phase problems, or even single-point room miking. That appeals to me very much after all those rock bands. I happen to know a broadcast and recording engineer who did exactly what I want to do, and he'd love to do bands in bars; the grass is always greener right?

All this is to say, you're absolutely right with your advice about mics for recording, I just probably hadn't made it clear what I'm really doing with my mic kit to this point. Using it for what I'm doing now, with an eye to what I want to do next. When I started reading GS I'd just bought a set of Oktavas, then another pair of capsules, and with Ukraine I decided whatever other Oktava I wanted to own, I'd better get them now. It's our winter now, but unlike most years live music has not gone quiet for the season; it didn't behind the hard border much either. So I'd expected to need to launch my recording venture but I've been able to keep working, saving and spending pretty well, so I figured now I should build a live kit too, something I'd never bothered owning. Hence all the moving coil, and some more SDC's.

So my mic kit now is a bit of hybrid. When I've been able I've used my interface and other gear to record friends playing and singing, to give me something to practice on. I want to polish my mic technique, not just *buy* mics, before I start trying to charge money to record people who don't know me, and get more up to speed with the software. But I'm busy and it's hard to devote much time. What I want to do is intentionally pretty simple compared with, say, studio pop production; it's not a stepping stone to that either - choral, chamber and so on is the music I would love to be working with.

That's enough rambling for now, if it's of any interest it's some background to the complex forces shaping my mic purchasing decisions I really look forward to that sort of recording work; and yes, you're right, low track count is probably the defining feature of what I want to do, intentionally so. For the discipline of it, for one thing; Keith Richards regarded 8 tracks as the perfect format for the Stones for a long time, I think if I can't do what I'm trying to do straight to stereo then I'm not ready. But though I might come across like a newbie I think I know enough to pull it off. Here's hoping, right?
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #105
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayHeath ➡️
Your experience and skillsets, dd, would doubtless yield a better result than me will a locker full of high-end mics.

But I did want to inject a thought of constraint for Bernie [and others in similar situations] with respect to pursuit of quantity. Most of his outlined priorities and his current track count restrictions seem to imply imply a low number of concurrent tracks for the mobile recording activities.

That said, a Josephson C700S is definitely a budget buster in context. But the ideas behind its approach are not.

When I was opening a music store business several decades back, I expressed inventory concerns to Jim Roberts [Roberts Music, Tampa], a previous employer. He assured me that within a very few years I would have far more stock than I would know what to do with. . .and, of course, he was correct.

It is not difficult for a focused, hard-working entrepreneur to put together a substantial number of pedestrian mics over a couple years of investment.

It is harder—at least for me—to leverage them in the creation of art. And thinking about core objectives stated by the OP in his first couple posts, I do expect there is value in considering examples from single and low mic count recordings.

Add to this earlier times—when track count was necessarily limited—we still have a number of reasonable location recordings? It is often more work for everybody [including the musicians] with one mic scenarios. . .but the environmental constraints of such can press out a superior performance now and again.


No guarantee expressed or implied,

Ray H.
dear ray

thx for reminding us that there's a difference between the floret (or foil?) and a two-handed sword...
...but then, there's also a difference between strategy and tactics (an operational skills)!

applied to the civilian and, in particular, the audio-technical field, this means that they both serve the same goal, but the choice of means, the equipment required for this and the know-how for handling it differ.

i know only very few technicians who cultivate a true hybrid approach, but (from theoretical reasoning and practical experience) i am convinced that at least a certain amount of transfer between the two worlds is possible, as long as one is not intimidated by the sometimes strong group think of the various communities and clans around here...


___


i can get a very similar sound from using a dozen of dynamic and two condenser mics on a drum kit as from using four condensers - but it's impossible the other way 'round...

you may still ask whether the former approach (lots of mics) makes sense - depending on the situation however, it is the only reasonable approach, i.e.: the choice of means and the goal to be achieved are in harmony - if, on the other hand, i simply use even more expensive but few condenser mics, i will fail miserably.

too bad i needed poor experience to be able to experience quality in the first place but maybe faillure is a prerequisite for mortals? i'm glad though i can get the drum kit to sound excellent, using only a few, but high quality microphones (under the right conditions).



p.s. the choice of means does not only extend to microphones: indeed, i find everything that follows in the signal path equally important - and again i mean the sheer presence, rather than the specific quality of a tools! - short: quantity sometimes matters...
...while (at least semi-decent) quality) is always assumed/expected if not required/demanded!

greetings from the (french) pampa,
don dd
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #106
...and to both Ray and DD, you remind me to mention that I'm not just buying mics to do jobs, whether SR or recorded, I'm buying mics and the right accessories to learn and practice mic *techniques* I've always wanted to use.

I'd used X-Y, ORTF, M/S and mono OH's for example, but not daily, and I never really needed to. Soon, I will, so that's one more factor in choosing my kit. It's not just the mics but as I posted, just those swivel joints and a stereo bar and/or stereo shock mount let me do this stuff whenever I wanted. Before that, I would have to wait for someone to give me the chance, and TBH I wasn't really trying to get those chances. I've got a whole new outlook in recent years too, which IMO counts for *much* more than the equipment. I think ppl hire me for my passion as much as my experience.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #107
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
dunno about ray but i guess i'm mostly beyond the point of discovering new techniques or applying them for the first time in a specific context/situation...



[i'm generally getting hired for:
  • my experience and specifically for my reputation of being able to survive any tricky situation without anyone getting hurt (both in front and behind the desk)
  • occasionally for having equipment that not only allows me to start a war but also to win it (in which case quantity matters a lot)
  • and lastly for the looks of my shiny gear! (i'm quite serious about the latter)

oh, and then of course 'we're only on it for the money' and 'it's money that matters' as frank zappa and randy newman acknowledged a long time ago...]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwOapKldMdM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cS06eprlj2I
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #108
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
p.s. on channel/track count

Quote:
I did want to inject a thought of constraint for Bernie [and others in similar situations] in respect to pursuit of quantity. Most of his outlined priorities and his current track count restrictions seem to imply a low number of concurrent tracks for the mobile recording activities.
i somehow missed that...

...but i'm really wondering about it or rather, it's a mystery to me what the problem is supposed to be these days:

there have been various aoip formats around for more than 20 years now, so track count beyond analog 2" could relatively easily get achieved - initially, some of these systems were quite expensive; however
  • they are still around (on the used market)
  • they still perform very well (even compared to some much newer gear)
  • they can be found ridiculously cheap.

for a few hundert bucks, you can get 32+ remotely controlled preamps/ad-converters (and enough return lines with da/converter) so you can ditch analog multicore and use much shorter cable runs from which any setup profits!

technically speaking, some of the older protocols are limited to standard sampling rate (or lower channel counts at higher sr) while most newer systems can get you literally hundrets (or even in excess of thousand) of channels, even at high sampling rates...

...so channel count is no longer an issue; by contrast, track count remains to be limited by the pc, the latter (pc) being a topic on which i know close to (one and) zero and hence will not comment.
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #109
Ray must be referring to my starting with a single 8-channel interface (Clarett+ 8Pre). For my market I don't see much point going much higher, not to start with. But I can eventually see myself wanting some other choices in pre-amps; I've liked the idea of ISA-series for a while. Clean, accurate and boring, just what I need. With the A/D card that would be a good piece of kit for me. So I am thinking about another unit that could integrate both the 8Pre and a unit like this as a later upgrade, if I get the work to justify the price.

I don't want to go ahead and buy more channels/more electronics yet, it's too soon for that decision and I'm spending (more than) enough on mics already.

But, as you say, there's little to stop anyone expanding their recording system to high simultaneous inputs. 8 should be plenty for me to start; I'm expecting recordings at a church here, I picture one mic pair on choir, one on organ and one in the audience, and of the 2 left over maybe one could be for the pastor, or maybe that pair could be for a mixer for anything else I needed. That seems like plenty of flexibility to start.
But I am still searching for a high-quality 2u to 4u rack mounting mic mixer that could sub-mix some extra mics to at least L and R, possibly a 2nd stereo buss. I don't see much on the market, but it's for later anyway. The next best might be a 16-ch mixer that can either be console format or rack mounted in more U's like a Mix Wizard, but I'm not sure if they are good enough for what I want to do. The closest I can think of would be a 500 rack with mix busses for the pre's and that sort of gear is definitely out of my budget, and more than I need to get started.

The other work is likely going to be school concerts so they can sell the parents a copy, and student auditions. 8 tracks seems like plenty to get started with for me; if I need more mics and pairs I still think sub-mixing prior to recording to 8 tracks would be fine, with a rented mixer to start. THen again, I suppose adding a 2nd 8Pre or an OctoPre for 16ch should cover just about anything they might throw at me, and cheaper than that type of mixer
Old 12th September 2022 | Show parent
  #110
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieW ➡️
Ray must be referring to my starting with a single 8-channel interface (Clarett+ 8Pre). For my market I don't see much point going much higher, not to start with. But I can eventually see myself wanting some other choices in pre-amps; I've liked the idea of ISA-series for a while. Clean, accurate and boring, just what I need. With the A/D card that would be a good piece of kit for me. So I am thinking about another unit that could integrate both the 8Pre and a unit like this as a later upgrade, if I get the work to justify the price.

I don't want to go ahead and buy more channels/more electronics yet, it's too soon for that decision and I'm spending (more than) enough on mics already.

But, as you say, there's little to stop anyone expanding their recording system to high simultaneous inputs. 8 should be plenty for me to start; I'm expecting recordings at a church here, I picture one mic pair on choir, one on organ and one in the audience, and of the 2 left over maybe one could be for the pastor, or maybe that pair could be for a mixer for anything else I needed. That seems like plenty of flexibility to start.
But I am still searching for a high-quality 2u to 4u rack mounting mic mixer that could sub-mix some extra mics to at least L and R, possibly a 2nd stereo buss. I don't see much on the market, but it's for later anyway. The next best might be a 16-ch mixer that can either be console format or rack mounted in more U's like a Mix Wizard, but I'm not sure if they are good enough for what I want to do. The closest I can think of would be a 500 rack with mix busses for the pre's and that sort of gear is definitely out of my budget, and more than I need to get started.

The other work is likely going to be school concerts so they can sell the parents a copy, and student auditions. 8 tracks seems like plenty to get started with for me; if I need more mics and pairs I still think sub-mixing prior to recording to 8 tracks would be fine, with a rented mixer to start. THen again, I suppose adding a 2nd 8Pre or an OctoPre for 16ch should cover just about anything they might throw at me, and cheaper than that type of mixer
back in the days, i could have killed for a portable 2trk...

luckily, along came the portable fostex time-code dat and the tascam da-88 so, together with a bulky mixer and a heavy multicore, that gave me 10 tracks - this was in the early 90's though...

my take on things 20 years ago was to use four yamaha ad8-hr's as preamps/ad converters, hooked up to via ethersound to a yamaha dm1000 for mixing and a pc for recording, with digigram da-converters and aesbu units so i could also interface my tc eq station (for live use) - the rig not only still works fine but even gets occasional use...

[in terms of sonic quality (and some features) - this rig still outperforms most newer cheap offerings! i don't want to go into details of my current über-rig but what i want to get accross is that everytime i bumped up my rig in terms quality/quantity/capacity/features/options, i could realize larger, more complex, more diverse, more interesting, more satisfying work.]

30 years later, i'm neither getting why someone would want to stay limited to low track count nor why someone would want to add analog gear to a mobile recording rig - certainly not when also being into live mixing!

___


of course mic/channel/track count depends on situation but even when tracking say a band in a reheasal space, i could easily use 8 mics on drums, di/mic on bass, di/mic on each guitar, add some di's on keys, some mics on horns, lead vocals, backings, ambis plus waste another track for the scratch mix etc.
same for classical music in a church: 4 mics on a string quartet, 4 on the choir, 2 on organ, two different mains, ambis etc.
if i were stuck with 8 tracks (or said 10 tracks), i'm sure i'd still be sitting in the same old shitholes and cold churches, recording the same old bands/ensembles over and over until musicians or my gear died...]

___


more important than the gear was the idea/concept/design of my setup: changing platforms between different scenarios (location recording, band/production rehearsals, live mixing/touring, studio recording/mixing, mastering broadcasting) would have been entirely impossible for my endeavours and would have put a devasting blow to my undertakings...

...so the solution was to use the very same approach/setup/gear (except for some mics) in all situations!* additionally, i've adopted an approach of 'always mixing' and have integrated gear typically used in live sound, mastering and broadcasting into my rig so at any time, i can provide the same level of sophistication in terms of my mixes without trying to recreate them on another platform which also saves a lot of time (which imo is crucial in many situations).



[*this may explain why i consider the still much hyped 'hybrid' approach (of using a daw/analog outboard/summing mixer) to be a trap!]
Old 13th September 2022
  #111
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Much of my work for the past 25 years has been classical music, primarily chamber ensembles. I did 90% of those gigs with eight tracks or less. I could expand up to 16 tracks when called for but that was mostly in the case of an orchestra or large choir gig. The other reason for using extra channels was surround capture, which required 9 to 11 additional channels for my favorite setup.

While I understand the flexibility that extra mics bring, I feel it's a double edged sword. There is only so much time and attention to spare before the audience arrives. The more mics I use, less time I have to get them in the right place. In my particular practice, which prioritizes capturing a musical performance in a particular space, getting a main pair of the right type mics in the right place with the right aim and height is job one. Anything that distracts my attention from that job is suspect.

My priorities reflect the particular kind of work I do, which I recognize is not necessarily typical. My prioritization of the main pair is much more appropriate for chamber music than it is for jazz, because chamber music is written to be heard in actual acoustic spaces, whereas small-ensemble jazz grew up in tiny clubs with terrible acoustics and the hubbub of a nearby bar. When we get to rock music, I'd argue that the real sonic standard is an album or a 45 rpm single. Rock concerts have always been a poor approximation of bands' musical intent, which is why some famous groups like the Beatles gave up touring entirely. When D puts up several dozen mics for a rock concert, he's doing exactly the right thing. Nobody really wants a recording that faithfully recreates a stadium show.

I may be mostly a classical guy, but I've done other kinds of gigs too. Anytime there's amplification, I want enough channels to take splits from the house mics in addition to my own. But I'd be perfectly happy to take a stereo drum mix from FOH, because that person should have worked with the band to get the drum sound they want. So I think I could still do that kind of gig with 16 channels, only a few of which would be my own mics. I'd prefer to offer the FOH person a few nice ones for the evening, in return for their cooperation with splits.

With the increased penetration of network-based house systems, I think it would be foolish to build a non-classical location rig today without some provision for connection to a Dante network.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 13th September 2022
  #112
Lives for gear
 
Progger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
David, as a guy who started as a classical kid turned rock nerd turned jazz nerd... I couldn't agree more with your take on live and recorded sound for those three areas. I would sticky that post of yours if I were a mod. It perfectly nails the reality of it, from my perspective.

I love many great rock and jazz records, but I almost never enjoy performances in huge mega-theaters or, least of all, arenas, at least not sonically, compared to a great recording. Listening to a great jazz group in a small venue is an enjoyable experience, and listening to a great orchestra in a beautiful hall is wonderful. But I like rock best on a record.
Old 13th September 2022 | Show parent
  #113
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progger ➡️
[. . .] almost never [. . .]
Well, stadium concerts did bring us TullAvision. . .


Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young to Die!

Ray H.

Back in ‘76 I was working for a JBL dealer in Tampa and got a call from the lead sound guy with Jethro Tull - they had blown several JBL drivers and needed next-day replacements for the Tampa Stadium TullAvision concert. I don’t remember much about the sound? But the vibe was pretty cool.
Old 13th September 2022
  #114
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My wife considered Ian Anderson to be a musical shaman. She's a flute player, but I'm pretty sure her judgement on the matter was influenced by mushrooms.
Old 13th September 2022 | Show parent
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick ➡️
...
While I understand the flexibility that extra mics bring, I feel it's a double edged sword. There is only so much time and attention to spare before the audience arrives. The more mics I use, less time I have to get them in the right place...
For any type of audio job time is the most precious resource; there are certain things that have to be right, they may vary between jobs but it could be the stage monitors, the positioning of mics, a soundcheck for some critical part of the show and so on. I generally can't steal much or sometimes any time from those to spend on something we can do without. If something or someone has held you up and time is running out you might even have to sacrifice certain elements to get the most important ones functioning, or to buy time to set up the rest later.
It's balance of that against having options, where eg an additional pair or a choice of mics on the same source could help, and if there's time let's give ourselves every advantage. But a double-edged sword for sure, because you may want the additional features but you can't always anticipate how long some parts of the setup are going to need, as we all know

As I won't always get time at the venue to try different mics for a choir for example, this morning I went to the warehouse and set up some different ones with a PA on my own time, just to see how they behave close to the limits of GBF and compare them against each other. Obviously it revealed more about that space than the mics but there were differences, and I got to hear how they sounded once the PA was tuned against feedback for each type by having someone speak in front of them. I tried to copy a typical choir setup and had a pretend lectern mic too. It was helpful as I tried some mics I haven't used much yet
Old 13th September 2022 | Show parent
  #116
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
the very first day i started working for paiste in the early 90's, jethro tull's longtime tour manager kenny wylie rang me up...

this phone call marked the beginning of a collaboration with a number of artists and bands who had left their mark on blues, rock and jazz history and i was able to considerably expand my previous skills which i had primarily acquired in the field of classical music.


[with the support two of my (former) employers - paiste (which did the distribution of ramsa mixers) and clair (which had a ton of ramsa desks as the wr-s840 was their standard monitor desk at the time) - and 'my' ramsa rig, i started working with tull in ca. '93: occasionally as doane's drum tech, regularly doing monitors and on a few shows, i mixed foh - on one occasion (much later on), the desk needed to be considerably larger as there was a full orchestra playing along with the band for which i either used a pm5d or dm2000 (sorry i don't recall precisely as i was just filling in)]


anyway, i can confirm that ian was (and probably still is) a special character - personally, it wasn't always easy to work for him (he once fired me during sound check - only to ask me back when i was already at the airport on my way home!) but musically, it was certainly a dream come true!

___


[i liked two incarnations of tull best; the one with barrimore barlow/john glascock and then with doane perry/dave pegg; but at the latest with the departure of martin 'lancelot' barre i lost my interest in the band - when i asked dave pegg a couple of years ago why he had left the band, he said 'cause ian can't sing anymore'...!]
Attached Thumbnails
Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-20220913_083530.jpg   Expanding my mic kit for live and recording-20220913_081409.jpg  

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 13th September 2022 at 01:07 PM.. Reason: edited for clarification
Old 14th September 2022 | Show parent
  #117
I've officially decided, I do not wish to buy MD421's. I had a couple on loan to try out recently and while they're fine on many things, first I don't think they have any real advantages over other mics I've already got, but more importantly I don't like the off-axis sound. Esp. on drums when they pick up cymbal bleed, that's not nice. They have the rock sound for toms but you have to use gates (OK, downward expanders DD ). Good on bass guitar cabinets but again, I've already got good mics for that.
What a relief. The wish list shortened, for once
Old 14th September 2022 | Show parent
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Progger ➡️
I mean, man, you're in moving-coil heaven at this point, seems to me ...
*Almost*. I still don't think I've found my snare mic, or guitar mic. I thought I had for snare, and it might just be that I only need to know more about how to use what I've got, but every now and then I put an M201 on snare feeling the anticipation of how great it's going to be, and then it isn't quite. I mean, on some snares it's the biz right away, then on some I have to chase it with mic positioning and a touch of EQ and I can get what I'm looking for, but sometimes it's just not there. That probably means I needed to get the drummer to play with no mic, no PA, and just listen to it before I decide on anything, but at a lot of my regular gigs I have no opportunity to do that. They set up, I mic up, we line check and we start. *Maybe* I can invest a couple of minutes and get time to try one mic swap, or one re-positioning, but that'll be it.
Long story short, I'm going to try an ATM230 next.

I'm just so --*BORED*-- with the same old snare mics, for over 30 years now. It was 57's for the first 20 or 25, then it's been pretty much e904's. Nothing wrong with either but I need a change. The Beta 56 has more attack and ping, that cheered me up for like a week, but I can pick a Beta 56 / Beta 57 a mile away with my eyes closed, it's all attack and high mids. Until I started using an M201 on snare there was nothing to get me interested again. It's that presence boost every popular dynamic builds in; I've heard it enough by now, thank you. With the M201 the lows and mids are approx. level with that presence range and it's rich! full! big! solid! It has GUTS! And if they're playing 80's with that big snare sound, that's how you get that in a small venue. What a refreshing change, after all these years. Yes, of course sometimes I want brightness or presence, but it's a Beyerdynamic M-series, you can just add it yourself with EQ and its phase response is linear enough, the ports are well-enough designed, that your DIY presence boost doesn't SOUND like a sound guy just pushing the EQ, unlike on a poorly-engineered mic. I believe that's what's going on with mics that people say "take EQ well".

And I need something better for guitar. It has to be close-miked, right to the grill, because of bleed / spill on stage. Time is similarly an issue. The usual dynamic guitar favourites are OK, but just OK. At a pinch, if I don't know the guitarist or his tone and there's no time, probably .... e906. But I'm bored with them and they lack something anyway, a certain richness. All the guitar amp favourites are too focused on presence boost, at the expense IMO of richness in the mids and lows.

The problem is, there are even more variables with guitar than other sources, even within the confines of a basic 4-piece rock band. Not only do you have the type of guitar, head, cab (or combo) but then there's the infinite possibilities of what they're doing with them.

So, what to do? I've come up with some ideas:
- get an SE DM2 TNT FET line pre-amp, with switchable Z, and do a lot of experimenting with standard dynamic mics, starting with SM57, which IMO few people have ever heard sounding as they should because they were designed for a relatively low-Z input like the old early 60's Shure 4-ch mixers. And they are sensitive to Z and these days almost any console has a much higher impedance than they want to see.
- a dual-element mic like an ATM250DE, AE2500 or similar (though AFAIK, the other brands' equivalents are much more tone-shaped for kick), so I can blend the dynamic and condenser elements or choose between them
- probably a Beyer M160, and said DM2 TNT as a line amp, because everyone tells me ribbons need a lot of boost.

I own a Beta 56, which a friend borrows all the time because he does a lot of metal and heavy rock bands and likes it for that, so I tried it tonight on guitar and did not like it at all. Thin. At my weekly house gig I do rock / pop covers bands, this is actually a pretty good try-out for mics because they play such a variety of styles and we all know how the songs should sound.
I did a gig with an old friend who is a truly great blues / rock guitarist, for safety I put an e906 on his amp but also tried an M88. The M88 was obviously much better and we used it all night, and I thought, great, this can be my guitar mic from now on. But on the next guy it just wasn't right. My general experience with hypercardioid dynamics is they can be hit-and-miss, or at least sensitive to positioning.

Don't worry, I know not to kid myself that there's one best guitar amp mic (though I think an SM57 is a good approximation), the answer has to be to consider the player, their gear and their tone and THEN choose a mic, but the same constraints apply as above. I'll get an ATM23 as another choice for snare and it will likely do will on guitar SOMETIMES. If I ever find one that works well on most of the guitarists I work with, I'll consider myself lucky and buy 2
Old 14th September 2022
  #119
Gear Maniac
Have you thought about a pair of Slate Digital ML-1 and/or ML2s? AS others have noted it seems like you have the basics really well covered but might be looking for some different colors. These mics would allow you to experiment with a bunch of different mics without actually buying those mics and with the added bonus that you can swap them out later if you get back to the studio and don't love what you have.

The ML-2s in particular (small-diaphragm) are really cheap for what they bring to the table and their small size means you can do things like stuff a virtual SM7B in a place where a physical SM7B couldn't go.
Old 15th September 2022 | Show parent
  #120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarkerStreet ➡️
Have you thought about a pair of Slate Digital ML-1 and/or ML2s? AS others have noted it seems like you have the basics really well covered but might be looking for some different colors. These mics would allow you to experiment with a bunch of different mics without actually buying those mics and with the added bonus that you can swap them out later if you get back to the studio and don't love what you have.

The ML-2s in particular (small-diaphragm) are really cheap for what they bring to the table and their small size means you can do things like stuff a virtual SM7B in a place where a physical SM7B couldn't go.
Doesn't that require external processing to model all those mics? I don't know much about them but I thought it's a software modeller you run as a plug-in, remember I'm talking mics for live music, with some mobile recording which is barely started yet.
OK I looked it up, the modelling appears to be done in a portable piece of hardware that goes with the mic, that could work, but I think it's a recording session unit much more than a live mic. I should have probably explained I meant I'm looking for snare and guitar mics to use with live music SR specifically.
I am looking forward to trying a whole different range of mics and techniques with a variety of clients once I do start recording commercially. Now things are a little quieter for me work-wise it's time I started pushing that a little harder too I guess.
Thanks for the tip, it's an interesting unit and one I should look into. I'd like to hear from more owners who've been able to compare it to the mics it models too
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