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c-100, TLM-103... or U87ai?
Old 8th August 2022 | Show parent
  #31
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismercifulfate ➡️
Any mic that is harsh/sibilant on a vocalist will give you that same nastiness in the cymbal bleed when used as a tom mic. If you want a good cheap condenser mic without a harsh top get some CAD M177/179’s.
I didn't say I thought it was harsh/sibilant, but it may be. I have a couple of inexpensive neutral mic pairs that I could use for toms (with the possibility of adding a third). Thanks!
Old 8th August 2022 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangbang ➡️
https://groupdiy.com/threads/akg-per...00-p420.67473/

I believe it has the de-emphasis circuit but not the same value capacitor and not the same spec capsule. I sometimes think about these, cheap/used, for toms or something.
Half the reason I've kept the AKG200,
is so I can learn some basic soldering.
And how to replace a capsule/internal parts.
Eventually for fun.

Not a "needed" thing though.
Usually my two best mics are a Soundelux U195, and an Oktava 319-that happens to be an exceptional one.

The 200 Series tends to be more suited for Speech/Podcasting. Kinda like a Poor Man's TLM103.

The P120 is well suited for BGV's/Harmonies in particular. I'm going to be practicing more "self" harmonies in different registers with it.
Chris
P.S. I'm saving up to buy the Beesneez BU67,
I've been singing/recording/evaluating it.
Wonderful 67 style mic. Smoooooth.
Old 9th August 2022 | Show parent
  #33
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
Half the reason I've kept the AKG200,
is so I can learn some basic soldering.
And how to replace a capsule/internal parts.
Eventually for fun.

Not a "needed" thing though.
Usually my two best mics are a Soundelux U195, and an Oktava 319-that happens to be an exceptional one.

The 200 Series tends to be more suited for Speech/Podcasting. Kinda like a Poor Man's TLM103.

The P120 is well suited for BGV's/Harmonies in particular. I'm going to be practicing more "self" harmonies in different registers with it.
Chris
P.S. I'm saving up to buy the Beesneez BU67,
I've been singing/recording/evaluating it.
Wonderful 67 style mic. Smoooooth.
I'm down the 87/67 rabbit hole myself, after listening closely to VO reviews and a lot of Podcastage on Youtube. Gefell and the U87ai caught my ear, and I'm trying to listen to as many Lauten and JZ shootouts as I can. A couple of BLUEs too.

I realize these aren't all in the 87 tonal family.

Did you consider other 67ish mics? The JZ V67 is on my short list, I would be curious to know your thoughts.

The P220/420 were very interesting to me as a mod platform, as it turns out you can't do much due to SMD PCB, and the capsule doesn't seem any worse than a generic K67; if I'm going to buy a Peluso/Beeznees/Neumann capsule...it's probably not going in a $50 mic.
Old 9th August 2022
  #34
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
If you’re looking for a clone of a U87, United Audio did a really good job on their Twin87 product. I’ve heard Neumann U87 that sound worse, though it’s definitely subjective.
Old 9th August 2022 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
T sounds like an 87 is out of spec then.
Not that is any news for you.

Bang, I've tried out the JZ a bit, just at NAMM to be fair. Very nice. And the guys at JZ are into chess!

But as per my last post, BU67 is too hard for me to live without, after a certain point.
Sooner still if I land a certain TV thing.
Chris
Old 9th August 2022 | Show parent
  #36
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
T sounds like an 87 is out of spec then.
Not that is any news for you.
The output transformers on U87 are generally under rated for the output the amplification circuit can deliver, they just don’t provide adequate headroom. It’s part of what adds some of the slight nastiness/edge. I think the UT Twin subtly improved that while maintaining the basic sound.
Old 9th August 2022 | Show parent
  #37
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Interesting.
Thanks, Chris
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #38
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 ➡️
The output transformers on U87 are generally under rated for the output the amplification circuit can deliver, they just don’t provide adequate headroom.
Where are you getting this information?
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #39
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Where are you getting this information?
From several sources.

It’s part of what led David Bock to use the large oversized transformer in his U195, which he has stated on record…I think more than once in interview, but I have also spoken with him about it further in conversation.

Klaus Heyne also replaces the transformer as part of his mod, and he has stated the limitations of it as well. I even remember this coming up many years ago when he was complaining about the sub bass limitations and literally suggesting to him on one of these forums that he should try replacing the output transformer as part of his mod, though I truly don’t know if he was already doing it or not. His current mods appear to use a special AMI transformer he has made, and I believe he’s talked about this a bit in public somewhere.

Further, Chad Kelly has mentioned this issue specifically in a thread discussing the nuances of the UT Twin87 build here where this topic came up and I asked him about it.

It’s decisions like this that have been really smart in his design tweaks on his part.

To my ear, you can hear the transformer based distortion of a U87A or even U87 fairly easily if you set it up close to drums without pad. Then you can start hearing when it puts that patina on other things.




I did want to circle back to this thread and add that I’ve only used ONE of these model UT mics, so I have no clue what kind of consistency they’re getting.
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #40
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 ➡️
To my ear, you can hear the transformer based distortion of a U87A or even U87 fairly easily if you set it up close to drums without pad. Then you can start hearing when it puts that patina on other things.
I'm not sure I've ever heard transformer saturation or distortion from anything where the gain stage(s) driving it weren't clipping as well. But I'll take your ear's word for it. :-)
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #41
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Chad (like Eric Heiserman/David Bock /Wes Dooley @ AEA/Wade @ Chandler/Klaus/ et al)...
A stickler for QC.
Chris
P.S. That U195 Transformer is over half the inside of my mic! "Pretty good" low end.
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #42
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
I'm not sure I've ever heard transformer saturation or distortion from anything where the gain stage(s) driving it weren't clipping as well. But I'll take your ear's word for it. :-)
Well, if you replace the mic with another mic that is giving equivalent output to the preamp and there is no longer the nasty sound of the U87 transformer being a bottle neck…you then obviously know it wasn’t the preamp. Especially if you have meters on the preamp you’re using LOL.
Old 10th August 2022
  #43
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
https://www.barryrudolph.com/newtoys...bock_u195.html
Attached Thumbnails
c-100, TLM-103... or U87ai?-ed7ecedd-52ac-429b-8108-96389191ec16.jpeg  
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #44
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Where are you getting this information?
also:

United Studio Technologies presents the Twin-Circuit Twin87 Microphone

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkelly ➡️
Hi Toledo, Great points in all!

So, we measured the actual mesh gauges of the 3 layer mesh of the original 60's unit. we found those meshes and reproduced that grill material exactly. the new design head basket, as you guessed, keeps us in the clear of any patented geometry while giving it a fresh new look. What we determined was that the mesh material and head basket shape does have some sonic interaction with the capsule, and matching that material exactly will give us much of that signature, but to less of a degree because of our head basket geometry not having any hard angles to the capsule.

You hit the nail on the head, Bock's U195, as I recall, was sort of their answer to the U87 but with removing what they considered the biggest bottleneck (the size of the output transformer). I believe I had a conversation with David a decade ago about that subject, and it was the thought still in my mind when we went to customize the transformer for this mic. Due to the mic body's sloped tube, we couldn't go as big as that particular mic did; but for our purposes didn't need to. I wanted it to stay a little closer to what was done before, but large enough that the low frequency dynamics were not squeezed. That's what really happens, you can get absolutely linear frequency response in a very small transformer, but the low end tends to sound a touch restricted or compressed, or at the very least, less three dimensional. I wanted to be sure we opened up those limitations and got a little more character, but didn't go beyond what was needed for that.

Matte black would be cool!

Chad
Old 10th August 2022
  #45
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
And finally, a pic of the inside of a Klaus mod that has had output transformer replaced.
Attached Thumbnails
c-100, TLM-103... or U87ai?-add674ee-0362-4d8e-bd76-a61dbc61356d.jpeg  
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #46
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 ➡️
Well, if you replace the mic with another mic that is giving equivalent output to the preamp and there is no longer the nasty sound of the U87 transformer being a bottle neck…
A side-by-side comparison of 2 87's, one with an upgraded transformer, would be fun to hear in front of a loud, low-endy source. An 87 up close to a parade drum has always been a bad idea, but it's interesting that the transformer is the reason why, not the capsule or the preamp.
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #47
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
A side-by-side comparison of 2 87's, one with an upgraded transformer, would be fun to hear in front of a loud, low-endy source. An 87 up close to a parade drum has always been a bad idea, but it's interesting that the transformer is the reason why, not the capsule or the preamp.
I’ve heard that more than a few times. The context I heard it the most was, there used to be a somewhat popular 87 mod that was going around that was really similar to the ideas described above. It used something like a Jensen or Reichenbach that wasn’t actually a mic output transformer…my memory is a little fuzzy.

But you could use those on super loud metal guitar, pounding double kick, toms, etc. If someone accidentally grabbed an unmodded U87 you would really notice the character of transformer saturation in comparison.

There’s probably enough other stuff different between U195 and U87 to make it an imperfect comparison, but a 195 absolutely holds up to bass drum or toms in a really strong way that a U87 never could.

Even though the quotes I pulled above focus on low end, I remember talking to someone who had more extensively tested various U87 transformers via various measurement techniques, and their conclusion was that it is just that the low end saturation is more obvious. For example, you’ll get distortion at 1k that’s above ideal for the dynamic range the mic is supposed to be able to deliver, and across the whole frequency spectrum really. Take that with a grain of salt if you wish, because I don’t have any charts to upload on that one.
Old 10th August 2022 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 20 years
Torturing transformers is a bit of a hobby of mine, and it seems that low-end saturation isn't something that you actually hear in the low end -- it's often a sort of "gargle" in the midrange. Harmonics? Dunno.
Old 10th August 2022
  #49
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
exactly

But a quick cymbal transient can also push a U87.

I mean, the other thing is that some of this has become a kind of signature element of recording history. It’s a recognizable sound and there are times I hear it in recordings that I know were done with U87, and I even like it. Sometimes there is a draw to a familiar sound instead of one that sounds objectively better by some other measure.

I just don’t want to seem like I’m pushing one thing vs another because I have a more nuanced view than that.
Old 12th August 2022 | Show parent
  #50
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Torturing transformers is a bit of a hobby of mine, and it seems that low-end saturation isn't something that you actually hear in the low end -- it's often a sort of "gargle" in the midrange.
Makes sense, Brent. Once the transformer begins to saturate, you're letting the LF stuff modulate the distortion level on the midrange.

Last edited by David Rick; 12th August 2022 at 10:40 PM..
Old 12th August 2022 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
On the cheap, I do think of the AKG 200 Series, as the "Poor Man's" TLM 103.
Just did this on mine...

Raw one take first.
Processed of same take. clip #2 .
Chris
Attached Files

Don'tSleepInTheSubwayRAWAKG200Chorus.wav (2.32 MB, 312 views)

Song 62.hdrFINALDon'tSleepInTheSubwayChorusAKG200MSFINAFINAL.wav (4.74 MB, 315 views)

Old 13th August 2022
  #52
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Paul_G's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
C100. Great mic.
Old 13th August 2022 | Show parent
  #53
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
On the cheap, I do think of the AKG 200 Series, as the "Poor Man's" TLM 103.
Just did this on mine...

Raw one take first.
Processed of same take. clip #2 .
Chris
Is the 103 not also in the U87ai tonal family?
Old 10th September 2022
  #54
Gear Maniac
I tested all 3 of them (c100, u87ai & tlm103)
The tlm 103 didn't even last half of a hour in my test, what a thin harsh mic, but its clean with less noise floor
u87ai is good but too pricey, also tends to be dull on my voice and harsh when I try to brightening it up.
c100 is the clear winner. Also the price is in between those other mics, so go for it.
Old 10th September 2022 | Show parent
  #55
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Advanced Audio CM800T is an excellent alternative too.
Chris
Old 10th September 2022
  #56
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pencilextremist's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
gefell umt70s will beat them all!! cheers.
Old 10th September 2022 | Show parent
  #57
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I like the Spirit.
But we always welcome more shootouts.
Like the Old West.
Chris
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