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How does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87?
Old 1 week ago
  #1
How does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87?

I'm aware they're very different mics, but if I want something higher end than my AT4050 (and CAD M179s), how does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87? I'm seeing those used 414s for $1200 on eBay, gonna try to get them down to like $800 or $900 (wishing I bought one before COVID), so far a "premium" utility mic that will see a lot of vocal use (particularly voiceover) would it compare favourably to other common mics? I'm not considering a U87ai, but I'm considering a TLM107, Austrian Audio OC818, MT Gefell mics like the M930 (or the hypercardioid version) or UMT70 S, or perhaps used TLM67 or U89i, though those are a bit more than I'd care to spend (don't know about used TLM67s but they're $2800 CAD new), so I'd hold off quite a bit before either of those. Also open to a Shure KSM44 but I don't know if that's an upgrade.

I don't really care for the TLM103, I like ths TLM102 a bit better, but I'd rather look at other stuff, and if I'm going just cardioid I think I'd rather look at Gefell's offerings.

This is largely just to have large diaphragm German or Austrian mic on hand for people who think that's important if they don't want me to use a small diaphragm Sennheiser MKH 8050.

Personally the only one I'm actually interested (as in virtually certain about) is the AKG since it seems flatter than the C414 XLS. I also like the OC818, but I've read a couple users here have been getting ones quite out of spec, and I don't know if I'd ever use the dual output. The TLM107 is what I wish the CAD M179 was, as I feel like the M179 could use a slight high frequency roll off.

Not that I think it should matter, but I've seem the C414, TLM103, and TLM107 be used in professional VO, but I've also seen the AT4047 and AT4050 used as well.
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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chrischoir's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
how does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87?
which U87? in general a BULS is a great mic but a little brighter than a real U87, and not quite as good a u87. They are different timbres. The ULS however is a better mic than a U87 ai and in general a higher quality sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
I like ths TLM102 a bit better, b
87ai is a little different than a 102 but 102 is every bit as good (or bad) minus the pattern features and pad and low cut.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir ➡️
which U87? in general a BULS is a great mic but a little brighter than a real U87, and not quite as good a u87. They are different timbres. The ULS however is a better mic than a U87 ai and in general a higher quality sound.
Kinda meant both, since the old U87 is the old desirable one with the vintage sound I like, but the U87ai is the current one that's everywhere. Also in the same vein, how does a C414 XLS compare to a U87ai?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #4
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chrischoir's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
how does a C414 XLS compare to a U87ai?
The transformer in ai makes them sound different than the xls. They are about the same general quality.

You need to use both on different sources and listen for yourself. My advice is go into a real commercial studio for an hour and try all the mics.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir ➡️
The transformer in ai makes them sound different than the xls. They are about the same general quality.

You need to use both on different sources and listen for yourself. My advice is go into a real commercial studio for an hour and try all the mics.
Currently in a small city, there used to be a studio in a local music store but they closed down. I might have to check if stores here will ship me some demo units to try. I will say I prefer transformerless mics (especially small diaphragm ones), but the AKG TLII is a bit too bright for my taste. I really liked the sE Electronics T2 I had for a bit, I felt like it was neutral enough without sounding boring and without any midrange honk.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #6
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wildplum's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir ➡️
in general a BULS is a great mic but a little brighter than a real U87,
Could not disagree more with that statement. perhaps other version of the 414 are brighter than the U87, but the ULS is not anywhere near as bright as the 87- any version.

these two mics are so different I feel you'd really have to try both to determine which works best for you.- even if that means booking a session with someone who has both and trying each.
If you buy one or the other without hearing them both, you are rolling the dice.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #7
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischoir ➡️
87ai is a little different than a 102 but 102 is every bit as good (or bad) minus the pattern features and pad and low cut.
Erm - are we talking about U87s and TLM 102s?!

The 102 has for me a real added "fizz" that initially is quite exciting then gets fatiguing quickly. You want to find something to blame for poor EDM vocal sounds, start with the 103 and 102.

The 87Ai has a hard edge to it but it's far easier to deal with in a mix - you can get a much nicer tone out of it.

And with the Gunter mod...

It's a superior mic all round. The 103/102 shouldn't even be badged as Neumann.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
dkr
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dkr's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Searching the web for "akg c414 history" gives you a number of hits, among them this one with sound examples: https://sonicscoop.com/curing-conden...e-akg-c-414-2/

Paragraph "The Sound" briefly compares the C414 flavours with different Neumann mics.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Studio Economik will ship you mics, but if you don't buy one of them, they charge you the rental fees. If you do buy one, the rental fees are deducted from the purchase price. Depending where you live, you could make the drive to Montreal and demo them at the store.

I have both the xls and the ai, I much prefer the ai on vocals. The xls is more neutral, at least in my rooms.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #10
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
imo there's a pretty large difference between 'real' multipattern ldc's which have five patterns and those with just three...

i can highly recommend the tlm-107 and of course the tlm-170r which is much more expensive though (and can get remotely controlled).
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Progger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Some interesting, and contrasting, perspectives here... having worked with both mics, I can offer my own take on them, at least, from the perspective of an instrumentalist who self-records regularly (I don't consider myself a proper audio engineer but I do many remote recording sessions for high-end clients).

I think the c414 B-ULS is a very decent and relatively neutral mic. It's very pleasant-sounding and solid. I don't consider it in any way a substitute for a u87 since they're very very different-sounding creatures. I find the B-ULS to be reasonably "boring" in a way that will make it useful for lots of sources. Its neutral voicing and numerous setting options make it very versatile, and it probably won't ever sound bad anywhere. Certainly a useful mic – but since it's long out of production, and AKG has rather pooped the bed as a company in many ways, I personally wouldn't be excited to try to buy one. I'd go Austrian OC818 for that reason alone.

Like a seeming minority of GS people (but a majority of recordists in the real world), I think the modern u87ai is a wonderful microphone, and for my purposes I prefer it to the B-ULS in nearly every respect. It makes the instruments I record sound like I want them to sound, right out of the gate, and I do the vast majority of my creative and professional recording work with that mic. The B-ULS is very good, but if what you want is a u87, you will be disappointed with a B-ULS.

I do think the new and used prices for a u87 are ridiculous and it should cost a thousand dollars less. But I still love mine very much (and I needed a big business expense the year I got it for tax reasons...) and I'm glad to use it every day.

Of course, you do NOT need a $3k mic to make great recordings. All the alternatives from Gefell and Austrian Audio that you mentioned in the OP would be great recording tools. The Neumann TLM107 seems like a very impressive mic as well, and not astronomically expensive (and I'd take any recommendation of deedeeyeah's very seriously, even though he doesn't like the u87 as much as I do...). But if I weren't recording on a u87 I'd probably be on a Gefell M930 or M930ts – and I'll probably pick one of those up eventually just for fun, and because I love how they sound on woodwinds.

TL;DR: The c414 B-ULS is a very nice mic but very different from a modern u87, not a good substitute... and I personally find the other alternatives more appealing.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
p.s. order of preference of multipattern mics i own:
  1. tlm-170r
  2. tlm-107
  3. tlm-127
  4. oc-818
  5. mkh-800twin
  6. c-100
  7. c-414b-uls

u-67, schoeps (double) m/s, beyer ribbon m/s and soundfield don't really fit in this list although they all have a variable pattern...

the u-87 would be lowest on my list - i sold mine a long time ago as the u-89 imo does everything the u87 does but better! i slightly prefer the tlm-170r over the u-89 though so i sold the latter too...

that said, i could easily do with tlm-170r's exclusively (besides a ton of schoeps)! it's just that i happen to have a bunch of other mics and since i have them, i think i'll better use them :-)



p.p.s. i wish i had a d-01 (or two!) :-(

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 06:21 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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DistortingJack's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
A C414 from anytime in the last 20 years will be a downgrade from an AT4050 in my opinion. The AT4050 is the kind of mic that you don't really upgrade from if you want a super-clean, clear sound. Maybe to a Sony C100/C800 but even then it's arguable. Modern C414s try to do the same thing but fail, being sibilant, brittle, and metallic instead. Yes, I even the XLS. The XLII is unbearably bright and shouldn't be considered.

The U87 is a different sound. It's bright, but fatter and less clean/clear than the 4050. You get one because you want that specific sound, or because it will help your business to have one.

"TLM107, Austrian Audio OC818, MT Gefell mics like the M930"

All of these mics are better than the C414 first of all, so that's cool, but they all do different things.

The real question is: what sound are you missing when you record with your 4050?

Or are you just prey to upgraditis and are patching up shortcomings in your mixing abilities/recording space?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #14
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➡️
Erm - are we talking about U87s and TLM 102s?!

The 102 has for me a real added "fizz" that initially is quite exciting then gets fatiguing quickly. You want to find something to blame for poor EDM vocal sounds, start with the 103 and 102.

The 87Ai has a hard edge to it but it's far easier to deal with in a mix - you can get a much nicer tone out of it.

And with the Gunter mod...

It's a superior mic all round. The 103/102 shouldn't even be badged as Neumann.
Well, then. :-)
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
In the "$1K and less" sweepstakes. these would be on my shortlist for Multi-Patterns (to complement the AT4050-which I like quite a bit)
That haven't been mentioned yet...

1) SE T2 (higher self noise than the ones below. Probably would need to close mic).
2) Heiserman Type 19 w/47 style capsule (with brass 414 style also planned down the road).
3) UT Twin 87 or Serrano 87.
Chris
P.S. I have high respect for the B-ULS for VO. A friend's daughter makes $150K+/year on one!
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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matucha's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
C414s = less present in the midrange (esp. hi mids) than neumanns with some nice soft air on top

I'd say that even for the dark-ish "teflon" capsule.

My experience is only with the older EBs, not B-ULS though.


At current prices, I'd rather pick U89 than nylon C414EB if I had to choose just one. C414 is creamier, U89 is more precise without being clinical or annoying.

CK12 "brass" capsule makes things more interesting, and the resolution seems to be about the same as U89, but it feels a bit artificial in comparison. That said it's gold on certain voices or on overheads. Until you see the prices.


U87 vs U89. First of all U89 is much smaller and I like that a lot . U89 feels more neutral and natural. U87 vintage has that "saturated" midrange push that be great tool once balanced with the proximity effect just right. For some voices and instruments it's super nice and surprisingly helpful. If it doesn't work, it's still ok, but you have to live with that little crunch in the mids.

MKH80 (I don't know MKH800) - different world to AKGs and Neumanns. My favourite for recording sound effects, it's super clean with huge bass response and laser like precision at the top. Yeah, "laser like" doesn't make much sense, but that's how my mind interprets it. This mic hears deeper into the microcosm than other mics I have. Maybe it's just the super low noise level. I tried it on vocals and voiceovers with some success, but the lowend is often too big and hard to EQ out (even the built in EQs won't help). Wind instruments on the other hand, flutes especially, superb. SFX and atmospheres/roomtones - perfect.


OC818 - I never had opportunity to try one, but any time I hear someone use it, it sounds great. Airy and soft. Probably a great substitute to C414EB with brass capsule these days, not the same - more modern. A good thing in my book.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Rob Coates's Avatar
 
21 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I've got a 414 Bul-s that was purchased at Manny's in 1987. It's probably in MHO the most balanced mic in my collection. Not bright, not dark, just right for my baritone voice. I've always thought U87s were a bit brighter than my 414.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
Matucha, the AA OC 818 is brighter than a proper vintage 414 brass capsule.
Eric Heiserman did nail the sound of the original.

Too bad the Pandemic issues delayed release of the Type 19 with his capsule.

But IMHO the Type 19 with the 47 style, is somewhat underrated here at GS.

In fact Granddaddy U47 was conceived, as a "Universal Mic".
Partly to compete with the mighty 44 Ribbon.

BTW not many people know this either but...
The U89 was originally intended to replace the U87! (Gasp)

Same thing for the AT4033.
AT4040 was meant to replace it.
The 4040 costs less to make.

But the public outcry was such,
AT kept both.
Chris
Old 1 week ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
I'm aware they're very different mics, but if I want something higher end than my AT4050 (and CAD M179s), how does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87? I'm seeing those used 414s for $1200 on eBay, gonna try to get them down to like $800 or $900 (wishing I bought one before COVID), so far a "premium" utility mic that will see a lot of vocal use (particularly voiceover) would it compare favourably to other common mics? I'm not considering a U87ai, but I'm considering a TLM107, Austrian Audio OC818, MT Gefell mics like the M930 (or the hypercardioid version) or UMT70 S, or perhaps used TLM67 or U89i, though those are a bit more than I'd care to spend (don't know about used TLM67s but they're $2800 CAD new), so I'd hold off quite a bit before either of those. Also open to a Shure KSM44 but I don't know if that's an upgrade.

I don't really care for the TLM103, I like ths TLM102 a bit better, but I'd rather look at other stuff, and if I'm going just cardioid I think I'd rather look at Gefell's offerings.

This is largely just to have large diaphragm German or Austrian mic on hand for people who think that's important if they don't want me to use a small diaphragm Sennheiser MKH 8050.

Personally the only one I'm actually interested (as in virtually certain about) is the AKG since it seems flatter than the C414 XLS. I also like the OC818, but I've read a couple users here have been getting ones quite out of spec, and I don't know if I'd ever use the dual output. The TLM107 is what I wish the CAD M179 was, as I feel like the M179 could use a slight high frequency roll off.

Not that I think it should matter, but I've seem the C414, TLM103, and TLM107 be used in professional VO, but I've also seen the AT4047 and AT4050 used as well.
Check out the JZ vintage 67. I have a pair that I like as much if not more than a pair of brass cap 414’s I had. Certainly a different league then the buls.
Old 1 week ago
  #20
Ended up getting a C414 B ULS cause the seller accepted $950 and it had free shipping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagelove ➡️
Check out the JZ vintage 67. I have a pair that I like as much if not more than a pair of brass cap 414’s I had. Certainly a different league then the buls.
I was looking at the JZ mics before. I could see myself getting a second hand BH1s in the future. This was a purchase to satisfy people who shop with their eyes instead of ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessparov2.0 ➡️
Matucha, the AA OC 818 is brighter than a proper vintage 414 brass capsule.
Eric Heiserman did nail the sound of the original.

Too bad the Pandemic issues delayed release of the Type 19 with his capsule.

But IMHO the Type 19 with the 47 style, is somewhat underrated here at GS.

In fact Granddaddy U47 was conceived, as a "Universal Mic".
Partly to compete with the mighty 44 Ribbon.

BTW not many people know this either but...
The U89 was originally intended to replace the U87! (Gasp)

Same thing for the AT4033.
AT4040 was meant to replace it.
The 4040 costs less to make.

But the public outcry was such,
AT kept both.
Chris
I would imagine the OC818 capsule can be tuned, since it's supposed to be an accurate recreation.

It's a good thing the U89i didn't catch on, cause that keeps used ones cheap.

Last edited by Dohreetoh; 1 week ago at 02:55 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
alcastiella's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
Ended up getting a C414 B ULS cause the seller accepted $950 and it had free shipping.


I was looking at the JZ mics before. I could see myself getting a second hand BH1s in the future. This was a purchase to satisfy people who shop with their eyes instead of ears.

I would imagine the OC818 capsule can be tuned, since it's supposed to be an accurate recreation.

It's a good thing the U89i didn't catch on, cause that keeps used ones cheap.
Congrats! You made a great choice. I purchased a B-ULS earlier this year and it is one of the most neutral and pleasant microphones I've heard.

The B-ULS is not hyped and it doesn't give you any sparkle, so that's why some snobby people make little digs at it but IMHO if the B-ULS doesn't sound at least halfway there, the problem is the source, not the mic. There's a reason why it's an industry standard utility mic and for many people it's a main vocal mic.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #22
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum ➡️
Could not disagree more with that statement. perhaps other version of the 414 are brighter than the U87, but the ULS is not anywhere near as bright as the 87- any version.
Exactly! C414 B-ULS is a very neutral, smooth and a bit warm sounding mic. It is a classic and works well (smooth, no harsh high) for digital recordings. Unfortunately AKG uses 414 name on all these mics. That is confusing to lots of people even the capsules are the same (except the vocal ones).
Old 1 week ago
  #23
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toledo3's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Austrian Audio talks a lot about the brass CK12 in an article on their website, but the capsule in their mics is not in any sense a recreation; it cannot be “tuned”, the backplate is ceramic, etc. It IS extremely similar to the “teflon” CK12 variants.
Old 1 week ago
  #24
Gear Guru
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I've got a 414 EB and a late 60's 87.
Very different mics. As mentioned above, it's not an issue of actual brightness because I never found these older 414 versions to have any kind of a 'modern' bright edge, but differences of texture and aggressive something, IDK, maybe grit, in the sound. Both versatile and great sound. Better maybe to note what works with each...

Drum overhead, I do prefer the 414 almost always.
Singers, make or female, always prefer the 87.
Alto sax... 87 most of the time, although the 414 presents that extra aggressive edge, so depends on the style.
Congas, 414 in fig of 8 between the two. Makes them pop in the mix without EQ. 87 sounds great, but it pops less in a mix.
Guitar cab, neither. Been using an old 421 lately, and loving it.
Acoustic, usually the 414 for in a mix. Maybe the 87 is it's a sparse singer/songwriter thing. It's a little more "lush."
Bass cab, 87 - Upright bass, 87 always. It captures the "wood" way better.

But looks like you grabbed a B ULS. Nice. Had one, and sold it. Kind of sorry I did, but I do like the EB a touch more. Both great mics. IMO.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcastiella ➡️
Congrats! You made a great choice. I purchased a B-ULS earlier this year and it is one of the most neutral and pleasant microphones I've heard.

The B-ULS is not hyped and it doesn't give you any sparkle, so that's why some snobby people make little digs at it but IMHO if the B-ULS doesn't sound at least halfway there, the problem is the source, not the mic. There's a reason why it's an industry standard utility mic and for many people it's a main vocal mic.
Agree with virtually everything here, other than there are some strong AE's (paging Dr Bill!)...Who genuinely prefer other microphones, in the price range-who are not "snobby".

But I still tease him about it!

A best friend gave his mint B-ULS to his daughter.
Who's very successful in Animation VO.

He's not using his vintage 87 much anymore, but of course she has "first dibs" on that too.

Otherwise I probably would have bought that 414, before I got my Soundelux U195.

Good score D!
Chris
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #26
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kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DistortingJack ➡️
The real question is: what sound are you missing when you record with your 4050?
I have a 4050, and kind of get this. It precision and clarity can be underwhelming if you are used to other mics that have an edge. I totally love it for drum overhead, or if I'm doing a really quick drum track, I put it over the snare front about 5 inches up, either in omni or car, depending on the track. Add a kick mic, and that's it; mono, two-track drums. Air is the best mixer! I also get some really snappy acoustic guitar tracks with it, about a foot off the 12th. Also done some cool M/S tracks with it and a 451, but don't mess with that much anymore.

I keep trying it on vocals and sax, but then I switch to 414EB or 87 and 4050 bets are off. Same with vocals. It's a great, clean capture, but (god, I hate writing this ) it lacks mojo.
Old 1 week ago
  #27
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Sabovic Adis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
When a mic lacks mojo I change the singer.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #28
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DistortingJack's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
I have a 4050, and kind of get this. It precision and clarity can be underwhelming if you are used to other mics that have an edge. I totally love it for drum overhead, or if I'm doing a really quick drum track, I put it over the snare front about 5 inches up, either in omni or car, depending on the track. Add a kick mic, and that's it; mono, two-track drums. Air is the best mixer! I also get some really snappy acoustic guitar tracks with it, about a foot off the 12th. Also done some cool M/S tracks with it and a 451, but don't mess with that much anymore.

I keep trying it on vocals and sax, but then I switch to 414EB or 87 and 4050 bets are off. Same with vocals. It's a great, clean capture, but (god, I hate writing this ) it lacks mojo.
What that "mojo" is is just specific types of distortion and response changes. Valves will colour the sound a certain way, transformers another, and diaphragm thickness, diameter, material, attachment system, body resonances, will change the time and frequency response.

I personally don't want or need any colouration besides saturation fattening. So, if I need "mojo", I bring a saturator up (or two, or a multiband one) and get the exact type of effect I want.

If you have the money, space, and time, it's a perfectly valid choice to get a specific flavour from the mic. Which is why I asked OP what they felt they were lacking on a 4050.

We'll see what they say once they've had some time with the 414.
At least they got a ULS rather than a modern one. It's a good mic.
Old 1 week ago
  #29
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mbvoxx's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
the 414B-ULS is a workhorse mic. Once you get one you'll keep it forever.
Old 1 week ago
  #30
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dohreetoh ➡️
if I want something higher end than my AT4050 (and CAD M179s), how does a C414 B-ULS compare to a U87?
I'm certainly not saying they're equivalent, but I do feel that most variants of the 414 aren't significantly better than an AT4050 ...so if you're looking for a vastly obviously upgrade, skip the AKG and go straight to the Neumann U-87

Ah, but which one?
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