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What's the deal with "Dawless"?
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #4471
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iksrazal's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Band loses laptop highlights one bad side effect of the DAW era: "live" performances with quite a bit of it being playback.

I remember when rap bands like Cypress Hill started playing live on stage at festivals using a DJ for playback and I thought it was boring.

Now nearly everyone does it.

My videos may never go anywhere really as my ship has sailed but none of it is sampled nor playback.
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Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #4472
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iksrazal ➡️
It's been a lifetime job at Pro Tools, which existed at least since 1991 when I first saw it.

My argument is bait and switch. And someday you will need to upgrade albeit not now.

If you are not on a subscription model, you likely soon will be. Monthly billing makes it so much easier for accountants. Can you run forever from that? I suspect not.

With the possible exception of Reaper as it is somewhat a breed apart. I installed it on Linux once, too much like my day job.
I really dont foresee a time I will be required to subscribe to using any software.. Nope.

You may be assuming that small subscriptions pay more than high-priced outright purchases. I've not seen the figures to know that. But it does tend to sidestep piracy a little, so those using it may actually pay something rather than nothing. So I dont see that it's paying wages any differently to before..
Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #4473
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3minute Tantra ➡️
Whats the deal with playing a guitar? Its more fun and better sport to make electronic music live with your hands and muscle memory.. more fun than operating spreadsheet calculations with a trackpad at least.. However, to make an religion out of it is rather silly., Most people use both.. especially for studio work.. The fun factor comes with a lot of baggage and cable/power supply terror. But the audience usually connects better with hardware acts than with guys that look like doing their emails on stage..
Haha “doing their emails on stage” !!!!!!

Hilarious!!!
Old 1st October 2022
  #4474
Lives for gear
 
Greg_KPX's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auer ➡️
Or rather, why is it a thing that some ppl seem to feel they have to point out.

"Dawless setup", "Dawless song". etc.

I dont understand the need to differentiate here.

What am I missing?
It's an artform in itself which stems from the combination of electronic Live PA and oldschool techno jamming. The key part of it is that it uses real instruments (hehe) instead of DAWs and plugins and is most often performed in real time, and in it's purest form involves real time mixing, sort of like reggae/dub mixing.

I've been doing DAWless for a long time and agree that the term "DAWless" is new, and ****ing stupid. It's a negative term and doesn't at all explain what the art/style is, but what it isn't. Which is, again, ****ing stupid. What's a better word to use that's just as short?

Thanks for reading
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Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #4475
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg_KPX ➡️
It's an artform in itself which stems from the combination of electronic Live PA and oldschool techno jamming. The key part of it is that it uses real instruments (hehe) instead of DAWs and plugins and is most often performed in real time, and in it's purest form involves real time mixing, sort of like reggae/dub mixing.

I've been doing DAWless for a long time and agree that the term "DAWless" is new, and ****ing stupid. It's a negative term and doesn't at all explain what the art/style is, but what it isn't. Which is, again, ****ing stupid. What's a better word to use that's just as short?

Thanks for reading
I think, for me, the big distinction is between using previously created sequences (whether midi or CV is immaterial to me as a listener; as a player, I've done both) and playing live.

Neither one is right or wrong, per se.

If you are a mainstream pop artist and you're putting on a conventional show, it would be all but unheard of, at this point, to not use coordinated MIDI sequences between your stage music and stage presentation. That said, I find such carefully manicured stage presentations to be... boring. But that's me. Others, more likely focused on front people and singers, are far more likely to appreciate the professionalism and careful packaging.
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Old 2nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trashman ➡️
Haha “doing their emails on stage” !!!!!!

Hilarious!!!
It certainly looks better when you work real interactive machines
Attached Thumbnails
What's the deal with "Dawless"?-solarised.jpg  

Last edited by 3minute Tantra; 2nd October 2022 at 02:25 PM.. Reason: add prove
Old 2nd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4477
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
I think, for me, the big distinction is between using previously created sequences (whether midi or CV is immaterial to me as a listener; as a player, I've done both) and playing live.
I think, for me, the big distinction is between electronic music and playing live.

Within electronic music, for me, the big distinctions are between manipulating sound only, and actually arranging live; and between using previously created sequences or creating your sequences from scratch live.
Old 2nd October 2022
  #4478
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Now, for all the avocado hipsters, this was dawless

Anything involving Ableton in the process, is NOT dawless.
Now please carry on…
Old 2nd October 2022
  #4479
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Gothi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I have absolutely no deal with DAWless I just figured. I just managed to finish my new 93% Hardware tune. The rest 3% is mixing and mastering the audio files in Reason. I even recorded some synths with their effects. Thanks Odin for the stereowidth on Reason's mixer. Best way to seperate the instruments from each other, imo. Yeah, well I am off topic since it is not really a "jam", just a 97% DAWless production. Took more time than software would, but i love the sound of my emulator synths. DAWful is good until it gets boring or claustrophobic, then 97% DAWless is a welcome exchange in my world. It is in 7/4.


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Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➡️
Now, for all the avocado hipsters, this was dawless

Anything involving Ableton in the process, is NOT dawless.
Now please carry on…
Anything including an octa track is not daw less too.. The Octatrack is a hardware DAW.. And there have been only hardware daw‘s befor homecomputers or even laptops became fast enough
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Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4481
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badmark's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Eh, you can't read your emails on an octatrack.
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Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4482
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gothi ➡️
I have absolutely no deal with DAWless I just figured. I just managed to finish my new 93% Hardware tune. The rest 3% is mixing and mastering the audio files in Reason. I even recorded some synths with their effects. Thanks Odin for the stereowidth on Reason's mixer. Best way to seperate the instruments from each other, imo. Yeah, well I am off topic since it is not really a "jam", just a 97% DAWless production. Took more time than software would, but i love the sound of my emulator synths. DAWful is good until it gets boring or claustrophobic, then 97% DAWless is a welcome exchange in my world. It is in 7/4.
That’s a cool track, nice job.

If, by doing it dawless helped you to arrive at a certain result, then that’s fine, but just by listening to it, I could never tell it wasn’t done in a daw.

In other words, to the listener, what difference does it make? If you like working outside the daw in part or in whole, and the result is good, that’s all that matters.
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Old 3rd October 2022
  #4483
Gear Guru
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Century and a half page mark!
Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4484
Lives for gear
 
Gothi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
In other words, to the listener, what difference does it make?
Don’t know, haven’t asked :-) To me, I must say my JP80 does better cellos and violins than any of my software. RS Friktion is also good though, but JP80 is slightly better.

Quote:
If you like working outside the daw in part or in whole, and the result is good, that’s all that matters.
True, and I do, but I am flexible. At some point my patience with an all HW set up will cease, and I will go up to 85% in the box again. That is the cool thing about hybrid; it you get tired of one approach, jump to the other.

Thanks for nice feedback.
Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4485
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3minute Tantra ➡️
Anything including an octa track is not daw less too.. The Octatrack is a hardware DAW.. And there have been only hardware daw‘s befor homecomputers or even laptops became fast enough
The Octatrack is also a musical instrument that can be “played”like a guitar or singer sings in realtime. I wouldn’t consider a drummer and drumset a DAW even though the do playback SUPPOSEDLY on demand lol

The OT is very different from an MPC or Korg Kronos.
Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trashman ➡️
The Octatrack is also a musical instrument that can be “played”like a guitar or singer sings in realtime. I wouldn’t consider a drummer and drumset a DAW even though the do playback SUPPOSEDLY on demand lol

The OT is very different from an MPC or Korg Kronos.
That applies to the old AkaiDD1000 too... which was considered to be 4 track DAW, it featured timestretching..realtime scratching and reverse..and sound clips could be triggered from a keyboard.. I actually have seen sets with an octatrack that have been just full playback .. considering you would need to touch it, to actually play it.. But sure..it has a drum machine legacy.. its a drum machine turned daw.. but also a hardware version of Ableton live.. made to look like an DAW less live act, but with all the comforts and playback abilities of a live DAW.. I wouldn't mind to use it on stage, once it gets cheap.. but I also don't make a religion out of daw less and would use a laptop on stage too.. just not without hardware drum machines and synths..at least a 303 is essential.. won't use it in the studio all the time.. but on stage for sure..
Old 3rd October 2022
  #4487
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Meh. Dawless is yet another way in an endless progression of ways people have found to make themselves feel superior to other people who are in reality just like them. Give it time, soon it will be woodless or carbon-free or something equally orthogonal to the making of music.
Old 3rd October 2022 | Show parent
  #4488
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevola ➡️
Meh. Dawless is yet another way in an endless progression of ways people have found to make themselves feel superior to other people who are in reality just like them. Give it time, soon it will be woodless or carbon-free or something equally orthogonal to the making of music.
That's the typical statement of people with an inferior complex.. Dawless live acts are for sure better sport.. Wether that is better music or not is another question, but its for sure superior to a playback act.. That saying I just mentioned the octatrack, that allows sets that look like daw less, but are more or less full playback never the less.. and thats for sure not superior.. And there are sets with a laptop that are for sure live sets and daw less.. I for example made once a set with reaktor ensembles I have build myself... tweaked them live just with the aid of the laptops trackpad and keyboard. a small after hour gig..every sound unique sound design..no samples.. stage was accessible, just a step in the corner, one guy comes along and asks me if I am doing my emails..really..I was embarrassed.. put my hands in the air, and stepped a meter back from the laptop.. beat kept running..but nothing happened anymore.. after 30 seconds the guy got it and said..ok..keep on playing.. In that moment I learned that laptops on stage actually look shitty and like fake music, even when what you do is pure modular synthesis, and not one cent less live and daw less than working a hardware modular.. Thats what many daw less acts do today.. For sure a faker can hide a little iMac somewhere,j or jus plays backings on the dj setup via memory stick..and adds some random bleeps and dj mix tricks to make look like a liveset what in reality is a dj set with own tracks.. Plus a fancy looking modular cable chaos, tiny and lightweight..for the looks.. But. is a modern dj setup with multiple loop points and realtime time stretching not aswell a digital audio workstation? The borders are pretty fluent.. In the end it matters if you get the place and don't bore the audience.. When the tracks are great people don't care much.. But its for sure better sport to get that without faking it .. A good working liveset, that is really live, is for sure superior to a playback show.. But interesting music and an own style trumps any generic humpta humpta you have heard a thousand times before.. All this Dawless guys on YouTube sound frightening alike.. Still better to watch than somebody that just waves the arms in the air and massages some buttons.. ho ho ho, here comes the happy farmer..
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Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4489
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3minute Tantra ➡️
But the audience usually connects better with hardware acts than with guys that look like doing their emails on stage..
I'm not so sure - it depends on the artist and the image of the artist and the crowd that then comes to see that artist because of their image.

I would say that the kind of acts you're talking about attract a certain crowd who are looking to engage in a certain way.. rather than being enticed to engaged when they're not that kind of folk, if you see the difference. That engagement is normally a pretty energetic one so it has that look ..

When I saw Aphex Twin back in the late 90s, he was propping himself up on a matress on the stage and had a laptop in front of him and the music flowed and it was what the audience expected and added to the whole image of thingy James. (considering it was about '98, I would like to know what he was using, what laptop - G3 macbook? I've a feeling it was a PC though... )

Had he been behind a load of gear twiddling knobs and trying to play live in that way, I think the audience would have rejected it completely and trashed his image in their eyes.... it would attract a different one.

Personally I find it cheesy (seeing people enthusiastically twiddling knobs and hitting pads on stage) and it all feels fake and for show. Just how it feels to me, IMO, IME etc.

Social media folk deliberately strive for that - and they want people to see them doing it.
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4490
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3minute Tantra ➡️
That's the typical statement of people with an inferior complex.. .
Is it?

I was of the understanding that people who are going "look at me!" are the ones looking for validation from others.

Meanwhile, the self-confident just get on and do stuff without looking to be seen to do anything in particular (unless using it for other means - e.g. to make money from music).

It can also be a common extrovert/introvert conflict - the extroverts want the attention, the introverts can't relate to it and see their behaviour as crude or crass (and then come up with reasons for it). In reality, it's just different personalities.

I would say I'm an introvert who appreciates extroverts nonetheless.
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Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4491
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 ➡️
Is it?

I was of the understanding that people who are going "look at me!" are the ones looking for validation from others.

Meanwhile, the self-confident just get on and do stuff without looking to be seen to do anything in particular (unless using it for other means - e.g. to make money from music).

It can also be a common extrovert/introvert conflict - the extroverts want the attention, the introverts can't relate to it and see their behaviour as crude or crass (and then come up with reasons for it). In reality, it's just different personalities.

I would say I'm an introvert who appreciates extroverts nonetheless.
to turn around the facts and claim that performers are the ones with inferiority complex, while the shy silent are the ones with the real balls, strikes me as self insurance of people with an inferiority complex.. Otherwise they wouldnt need self assurance by belitteling achivers. Wether this achivers are narcistic or overblown egos is another question, it certainly happens to have bozos on stage..
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Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4492
Registered User
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nat8808 ➡️
Is it?

I was of the understanding that people who are going "look at me!" are the ones looking for validation from others.

Meanwhile, the self-confident just get on and do stuff without looking to be seen to do anything in particular (unless using it for other means - e.g. to make money from music).

It can also be a common extrovert/introvert conflict - the extroverts want the attention, the introverts can't relate to it and see their behaviour as crude or crass (and then come up with reasons for it). In reality, it's just different personalities.

I would say I'm an introvert who appreciates extroverts nonetheless.
Interesting post (amongst others).
What about the physiological theory that states extroverts are understimulated in the ascending activation system, and compensate by extrovert behavior and that introverts tend to avoid stimulus because there base level is already active.

So maybe introverts want attention like extroverts. Just get it in different ways. Bit reductionist, but might partly explain their diffences.

Last edited by dan70; 4th October 2022 at 08:04 PM.. Reason: focus
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4493
Gear Nut
 
I have felt the reflex to pooh pooh some other scene or movement that's not my lot. It's human nature.

The fact is, people coming up with a framework and rationale that channels creative momentum is a fundamentally good thing. Our urge to pick at it is just insecurity.

I've found my little niche to be an even more positive space when I can enjoy my lot, and thumbs up any electro-party, trainhopping buskers, or museum installation fusion scene from the sidelines. The more I can take a deep breath and see other people doing other shit is cool, the more I feel like I have motivation to do my shit. All of my musical idols have embodied that very spirit and I think that kind of confidence and curiosity is what keeps people vital.
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Old 4th October 2022
  #4494
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
When you need to press play, it’s no longer you…
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4495
Lives for gear
 
ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➡️
When you need to press play, it’s no longer you…


It means something that was created is being replayed. It's representative of the person who composed it. There's a long history of electronic music presented this way.

What should matter the most is how the music sounds.
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4496
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️


It means something that was created is being replayed. It's representative of the person who composed it. There's a long history of electronic music presented this way.

What should matter the most is how the music sounds.
We were talking about performing LIVE.
Old 4th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4497
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️


It means something that was created is being replayed. It's representative of the person who composed it. There's a long history of electronic music presented this way.

What should matter the most is how the music sounds.
Our aesthetic views often tend to be pretty simpatico, but in this case I have to draw a distinction between people playing instruments live, in real time, with no sequencing and those carefully crafted, prearranged pre-programmed, extremely choreographed stage presentations largely designed tend to recreate commercial recordings as faithfully as possible.

Now, for sure, there are many people who enjoy that sort of show and are disappointed when what comes out of the sound reinforcement doesn't match the expectations they've forged from listening to a hit single 1000 times.

And I think there's something to be said for going to see, for instance, an icon of musique concrète presenting a 'static' recreation of a seminal work, perhaps with a meet and greet or Q&A.

But as someone who for most of a decade, performed into an echo loop, capturing phrases, building on them, tearing them down and starting over, all improvised... I still worried about the 'static' aspects of the music. (Of course, that is part of the 'art' of it... It's a struggle between what you feel should come next and what has come before, a continual, evolving musical dialog. Of a sort.)
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Old 5th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4498
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➡️
We were talking about performing LIVE.
Oh get off your high horse. Nobody cares. I can enjoy an Autechre gig in the dark one day and go to the Proms the next. Nobody cares.
Old 5th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4499
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
. I still worried about the 'static' aspects of the music. (Of course, that is part of the 'art' of it... It's a struggle between what you feel should come next and what has come before, a continual, evolving musical dialog. Of a sort.)
WHAT? You are worried! lol, its horses for courses and ultimately the audience decides if they had a good time or not anyway.
It really doesn't matter. Half the time the audience are just there to party and have zero interest in a 'performance'.
Old 5th October 2022 | Show parent
  #4500
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️


It means something that was created is being replayed. It's representative of the person who composed it. There's a long history of electronic music presented this way.

What should matter the most is how the music sounds.
Absolutely. The whole idea that a totally artisan approach is the only worthy presentation is pretentious, self-righteous and narrow minded.
Those sort of comments are by the same people who will never understand conceptual art showing themselves up by saying things like "its just not art". They feel threatened and feel they need to draw a line in the sand. It's not like that. People don't care. I love going to a classical or jazz gig just the same as going to see a laptop gig while I dance with a bunch of like minded people.
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