Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

i don’t think you know what there is i need to “change”.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

yep, it was. much of this is stuff that i've never really looked into, i never really thought about exactly where in Africa most slaves were brought over from. i'm thinking "who are your/their real ancestors? what might they have contributed to Human Psychology? Sociology? Mathematics? Science?"


a quick glance tells me that a large percentage of those that came to the US in the early 19th century were from the African Congo region. i looked them up, that's what i found. looked pretty plausible. i held off posting a picture from the 1800s with a bunch of guys in chains (held captive by another black African), but they looked about the same. turns out it was more West Africa than Congo (??), but they look about the same as well.

should i have posted a photo of a different group, maybe dressed up in nice tailored suits? like Bill Cosby? showing us examples of "white black guys" as if they're a closer representation? that was almost painful to watch. obviously there is no barrier for learning/potential, but maybe look at how one fares on their own. how do you explain the complete lack of development compared to Asia/Europe over hundreds or thousands of years? "oppression"?

i said i'm generalizing with a lot of these "assumptions", but you guys sure like to avoid the completely obvious. again, if i'm really off-base (other than being just plain rude even posing these questions) let me know. what do you really think a good answer to his question might have been? can he even answer that, or is he banking on the fact that it was "lost to oppression"? who knows, maybe it was. we know pretty well how much other history was simply erased over the years everywhere else, but when most of the continent were basically "cavemen" (mainly due to environment, and correct me if i'm wrong and there were more "advanced" areas) i'm a little skeptical.

which African people? can you frame it like that? like i said, i don't think the Renaissance took place on a farm in Sicily. when you can pretty much pinpoint exactly where everyone (generally) came from and look at what was going on there then/now i don't think i'm making any outlandish assumptions. ...am i being a complete asshole to even mention any of this? sure, but i'd like to hear your side/explanations. i'm hoping you guys have thought more about all this than i have.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

yep, it was. much of this is stuff that i've never really looked into, i never really thought about exactly where in Africa most slaves were brought over from. i'm thinking "who are your/their real ancestors? what might they have contributed to Human Psychology? Sociology? Mathematics? Science?"

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

yeah, on both sides. "pride" in complete ignorance.

myself, i'd be happy to have my mind changed on any of this.

Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️

It's actually simple. All first technological/scientific/cultural achievements originated in Mesopotamia and/or Africa, because we all came from Africa, and Mesopotamia and Africa formed the first civilizations. Also Asia and Hellenistic cultures... Chinese were printing with moveable type five centuries before Gutenberg, and our current views on aesthetics and western civilization originated with the Hellenists.

Individual ancestry, or the general population at large are moot. Cultures that were the first to organize and civilize were the first to innovate, and every new innovation is built on the foundation of previous innovations. White Western European and new world innovators are extreme latecomers to the game.

Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️

Lovin' the new avatar.

Originally Posted by TREMORS ➡️

No.
Not "both sides".

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

you guys don't know a damn thing about me.

Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️

Why is your impulse to try to knock Africans and African Americans like this? This is just an absolutely insane reply.

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

There's power in who gets to make the definitions. Look at the historical record and change the word from riot to revolt, then see if your perspective changes.

... If one group is oppressed a few hundred years, would you expect its goals to be congruent with those who brought about the oppression?

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

how much worse can i make myself look? my reply i deleted the other night, i think his "reasoning" (excuse) is just a lack of responsibility in the end... if you're not asking yourself these same questions then i think you're being completely naive.



there's a big difference between "revolt" and basically "****ting where you eat", over and over again. people have been oppressed all over the world, for thousands of years. how many of them handled it by smashing up their neighborhood market or "revolting" against the closest Nike retailer? you see any difference there? you want to defend that because they're "oppressed"? that's a pretty tired excuse by now, like dealing with an alcoholic or drug addict. they need to want to change. i'm not seeing much of that. i see a lot of "pride" in perpetual ignorance and misunderstanding. some people just don't learn. ...and what "group"? those "cavemen"? what you're not looking at is how this "group" was doing on its own, before being "oppressed". how it might do on its own after being oppressed. (see below.) that's what interests me, that's what i got from that book mention on current Africa. maybe this isn't solely about "Western/European oppression" when it comes down to it. maybe it's a little more complicated than just "demanding your freedom, by any means necessary". that's harsh, but that's what i keep wondering.

i'm generalizing and certainly leaving out all the positives, but that's what comes to mind reading your reply. ever watch a movie where after a while you don't really care if the bad guy wins? at this point i've almost lost faith, in everyone. "white people" aren't any better/smarter, i'm sick of them too.

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

And to think, racism will never end with my attitude

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

more accurately, BOTH of "our" attitudes. my attitude changes quite a bit when i go from hearing Rakim and Wu-Tang to Waka Flocka. that worries me. more than anything, this has changed my "viewpoint" over the past 10-20 years. when i hear Jeru or a hundred others, the last thing on my mind is "dumb black guy". i went from having a ton of respect to having less respect. (sure, you don't care what i think of "you". right.) on the other hand, as far as seeing how people themselves really are face to face, i've had almost nothing but positive experiences. i just realized how different my views are on this when i take away certain aspects, or more that i don't focus on much any of this as much as i'm talking about it here. i have no problem with people day to day, i'm usually the only white guy on the bus. i'm amongst good people, people that are as hard up any. they know me. i probably have more respect and love for African-Americans than 90% of BLM suckers who wouldn't be caught dead in these neighborhoods. wouldn't feel "comfortable" in these settings. that whole thing was bull****.

why can't i see punk rock as a "concerning" parallel in devolution? i wish i could answer that. that you "don't have patience/time" to address these simple/direct questions (that nobody else has the sack to ask) is completely what i'd expect, and part of my point.

left this out (you probably already saw all this in the email from my first reply), but while you're here...


about the "control of the industry" thing... where do you see that going? another 20 years of mumble rap, or worse? what would change for the positive (even if it might not be to my own tastes)? are you happy with the state of music itself (not the industry, streaming, etc) in 2021? compared to 1996?

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

Same guy who had a self proclaimed understanding of racism at 6 years old

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

go back and show us all how you blew that whole thing out of proportion.



i haven't seen it in years, but are they? i don't have any negative stereotypes in mind when i think of the Jeffersons. i guess i'll have to watch it again. Jimmie Walker? sure, but i wouldn't even say the he's a "caricature". again, Jim Nabors and a hundred other white "dummies". would some gussied up "Ozzie and Harriet" type of show been more accurate? i'm not debating or disagreeing with you on this as much as you think. i saw them as a positive, considering the time.

you're leaving out that all this "discussion" came from a few offhand comments from myself and a few others based only our thinking back on a certain time. you've obviously had these subjects/examples on your mind for quite some time and to a greater degree. a "personal" degree besides.

no, from my recollection the Jefferson family isn't much different from any other black family in the 70s or today. i'm really going to have to watch the show again. was everybody more like the Brady family or what? actually, they really are, now that i think about it. see?



again, i don't think you can frame it like that. humor me on this yourself. i'm not dismissing the deeper history, but looking at who was actually involved. the people that were actually sold into slavery. let's look at their contributions, whatever they may be. i honestly don't know. of course you all leave out the fact that i say the same for my own people.

i hope you're not thinking that i'm questioning their contributions in the "new world"? (?!) nothing but respect there. is that (partly) the case here?

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

... I can't really say much about your perspective that won't come off as an insult. ...

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

.

...and avoiding my actual, more on topic, question? again? that's what i'm talking about. you're not interested in conversation with anyone that doesn't see things your way, or anyone that can see both sides. that "attitude". that's fine, we're good. no hard feelings. not sure, but they say that the 'Ignore' function works pretty well.

Originally Posted by nat8808 ➡️

That's been my experience too, completely, on a different topic.. Fortunately he soon put me on an ignore list.

Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️

Out of curiosity, did you promulgate racial tropes and stereotypes, as well as showing an abject ignorance of history and the world in general? Maybe you posted racially tinged images meant to provoke an inflammatory response?

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

Maybe you’re seeing more than is actually there. “Racially tinged images”? No, that’s simply reality. Blow me. There was no negative connotation in posting that photo.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

Maybe you’re seeing more than is actually there. “Racially tinged images”? No, that’s simply reality. Blow me. There was no negative connotation in posting that photo.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

unbelievable.



dude probably couldn't cook up a decent basket of fries. "intellectual piece of art" my ass. same old clown thug bull****.



all those guitars that were sold out of the Sears catalogs, and we end up with this ****. real nice.

you don't what we didn't have in the 50s? pop stars that were packs of corner rat winos piled on top of cars slurring incoherent nonsense, with a bunch of cheap do-nothing half naked skeezers in the background rubbing on themselves. i guess this is what we deserve.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

yeah, they were killing it.



looking like a bunch of clowns, all on their own. no, most of America probably didn't want much to do with that. then again, we thought guys with long hair wearing their girlfriend's makeup and torn stockings looked cool.

what actually helped the hip-hop acts was toning down their image, wearing jeans, t-shirts, and sneakers. of course they ****ed that up and now everyone looks like something out of a Star Wars remake.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

again, sorry i can't reply to every point, so much that i haven't been able to follow up on. need to go back through this thread, and the other too...



agreed. i'm happy to learn the truth, but i don't think i'm the only one here that was surprised by that "knowledge". news to me.



come on... that's the thing, Africa is a BIG continent. no, i don't think most of Africa has "contributed" much to any of that. these guys?



nope, sorry. can't credit them with much of anything. on the other hand, my "dumb ass" peasant farmer ancestors in Sicily couldn't contribute much either (and i don't think it's a stretch to assume that i might have some "African" roots myself, it's right next door). i don't think i can really "take credit" for the advancements that took place in mainland Italy just because i'm Italian. let's be real here.

much/most of this i would contribute to circumstance, environment, climate, etc... but there might be something else. were the American Indians "dumb" in their lack of development, or is that the way it's really meant to be? maybe humans were meant to be "simple", maybe they were "doing it right".



seriously? i don't think we have any idea who built the pyramids, but i'm guessing it sure wasn't who you're implying. how many African-Americans identify as "Egyptians" anyway? great question, but that's a hell of a stretch.


anyway, it looks like we can PM up to five recipients if anyone wants to take this elsewhere.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

thanks. some guys are into EVH, my guitar hero is Hound Dog Taylor.



you guys don't know a damn thing about me.



sorry, that's some naive bull**** and you know it.

Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️

… you change your avatar specifically to do so. A setup, as they say, so once someone questions your choice on that avatar, you have a ready-made image to feign indignation at the temerity of anyone who'd question your intentions.

Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️

That’s hilarious. Huge fan, wouldn’t have been a problem without the commentary. Had to point out who he was, I’m pretty sure he didn’t know. As if I just pulled up the most unflattering image of a black guy I could find.

I changed it expecting exactly this, knowing that you’d twist it into “wait, I’ve got some black friends too”. I didn’t need BLM to guilt me to “support black music”. It’s mostly all I listen to. I knew you’d pull that, which is why I cropped the photo. The photo that I already had saved and used as desktop wallpaper for years. Go ahead and tell me about my motivations though.

Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️

I was going to just leave this be, because it's a charged image. But these cool dudes have taken some heat, so just a few words before leaving them be...

Rainforest Pygmies. The original tribes developed significant techniques for beekeeping, forest management and creating settlements without environmental damage, natural medicines, natural foods, advanced hunting techniques, farming and cattle herding, etc... Their direct ancestors were experts in this stuff before nearly anyone else on earth. The culture has lived in harmony with nature, first as nomad hunters and then as settled farmers for 60,000 years, some estimates go as old as 90,000 years.

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

I just want to say there's never been a group of people in Africa that called themselves pygmies.

Again, there's power/bias in who is allowed to make definitions and have us accept them.

Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️

There's especially fraught recent history with pigmies; in 1904, as several of them were brought to the US to be exhibited at the St. Louis World's Fair, and 2 years later a Congo Pygmy named Ota Benga at the Natural History Museum and later the Bronx zoo! WTF?!?
...that's not that far removed. We humans...