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If You Are Making Music In Today's Era What Matters Is How Good You Have It
Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #301
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telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish ➡️
Seems like a lot of generations now simply stay in their bubbles. Like some of my friends putting on their legwarmers and going to a an 80's revival show to have a good time. The last decade the whole artist revival tour thing or show thing became super popular. Big touring Pink Floyd acts complete with the light shows etc. Local music promoters gathering the good musicians they know and doing a "The Doors" or "The Who" show.

I crossed the rubicon of 50 a couple years back.. lol it's all over now baby blue. I was already a bit of a throwback in the 80's when is was a teen/young adult. Now I'm a dinosaur.
Never say never. Anything can happen. Did you ever see Grandma Lo-Fi? There is a doc too.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNlnBXMnbw
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Old 7th June 2021 | Show parent
  #302
Lives for gear
 
GearFiddler's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish ➡️
Seems like a lot of generations now simply stay in their bubbles. Like some of my friends putting on their legwarmers and going to a an 80's revival show to have a good time. The last decade the whole artist revival tour thing or show thing became super popular. Big touring Pink Floyd acts complete with the light shows etc. Local music promoters gathering the good musicians they know and doing a "The Doors" or "The Who" show.

I crossed the rubicon of 50 a couple years back.. lol it's all over now baby blue. I was already a bit of a throwback in the 80's when is was a teen/young adult. Now I'm a dinosaur.
Kind of like the Star Trek episode, "All Our Yesterdays" where there was the portal to the past.

I feel ya. I'm 58, bad neck...this and that. But, last Xmas I was perusing the Sweetwater site- initially for my son who took up the guitar last fall. ( I resigned myself a few years back to riding it on out with what I already have.)
Darn if Chuck didn't offer me a deal I could not refuse if I signed up for their card. Yep. I got one of those, and then a little somethin else. My kid didn't do too badly either. And then hey look...there's still room in the cart. So then I got me one of them.

In my defense...should I need one, it's all stuff my son will likely find useful somewhere down the road.

Yeah, good times. Sure would help if those goal posts would hold still. Sometimes it seems like there's no place to go and nothing to do there, for me anyway. But, it feels like I'm on the field and gaining yards nevertheless.

Well, a newish H9 Dark has been keeping me kinda busy lately.

And gosh, would ya look at the time...


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Old 8th June 2021 | Show parent
  #303
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler ➡️
Kind of like the Star Trek episode, "All Our Yesterdays" where there was the portal to the past.
In the original series, they were fascinated by time travel, they must’ve had six or seven episodes with that as the central theme, I always liked “city in the edge of tomorrow”.

Great reference though - bonus points for you!

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Old 8th June 2021 | Show parent
  #304
Lives for gear
 
GearFiddler's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
In the original series, they were fascinated by time travel, they must’ve had six or seven episodes with that as the central theme, I always liked “city in the edge of tomorrow”.

Great reference though - bonus points for you!

Thanks Sharp11

Yeah... add in the cultures and civilizations that paralleled a human one at some point and well, perhaps it was easier to raid the costume shop for period correct clothing than to represent an altogether alien life form.

--------------------------------------

I'd be remiss I suppose not to mention my old *band. They just finished picketing all over town this spring. Basically, management used the pandemic to cast aside a long standing collective bargaining agreement and to attempt to hold pandemic necessitated cuts in place. There's now some sort of temporary agreement in place.

So, I presume that music makers in the hmmm...more traditional sense weren't really among those the thread title had in mind. But I think it's fair to say they had it better at one time, even if there had been no pandemic.

And I concur with some of the negative aspects that have been mentioned by others in this thread, so far.

Depending on how you look at it, there's a plus and a minus to pretty much everything, I think.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #305
Lives for gear
 
tymish's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearFiddler ➡️
Kind of like the Star Trek episode, "All Our Yesterdays" where there was the portal to the past.

I feel ya. I'm 58, bad neck...this and that. But, last Xmas I was perusing the Sweetwater site- initially for my son who took up the guitar last fall. ( I resigned myself a few years back to riding it on out with what I already have.)
Darn if Chuck didn't offer me a deal I could not refuse if I signed up for their card. Yep. I got one of those, and then a little somethin else. My kid didn't do too badly either. And then hey look...there's still room in the cart. So then I got me one of them.

In my defense...should I need one, it's all stuff my son will likely find useful somewhere down the road.

Yeah, good times. Sure would help if those goal posts would hold still. Sometimes it seems like there's no place to go and nothing to do there, for me anyway. But, it feels like I'm on the field and gaining yards nevertheless.

Well, a newish H9 Dark has been keeping me kinda busy lately.

And gosh, would ya look at the time...


I was still gigging 1 - 2 nights a week into my late 40s, then major tendonitis made me stop for 2 years. Once that cleared up I started jamming and rehearsing again. Then carpal tunnel in both hands. At this point I've barely played in the last 2 - 3 years. Add the covid lockdown time and i wonder if I'll ever get back into it again. If only we had All our Yesterdays eh?
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #306
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
Is the kit in that little bedroom too?
oh yeah.

that's something that only happened at the start of covid.. but now it's never leaving. the kit changed everything.

First, it gave me some things to work on (drumming, tracking) but more importantly, it gave me the sound of air moving in a room.. which has made my scrappy-ass demos sound SO MUCH more compelling *to me*..

small but mighty.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #307
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode ➡️
I think one of the things people should be thinking more about is ageism in modernity when it comes to music. There is a very obvious clear trend that youth overpowers and sells much more today than it did in the past when it comes to music. If you look at some of those big hit records in the 80s -- Lionel Richie or tracks on soundtracks.. for example ... Glen Fry on Beverly Hills Cops..e.t.c. .. They were dads and moms. Yes, I know they were artists with a history of success -- but they were really old to be on a soundtrack on a film that was basically targeted at teens and young adults at the time. The same could be said about Patti Labelle. She would have been what, 40 years old in 1984? That's bloody old for an artist to be in a music video for a major picture in video compared by today's standards. I don't think you will see much of that anymore in today's society. You will not see any hip trendy modern Instagram/YT artists that are 40 year olds selling in today's music marketing landscape. Just look at the faces of the people that populate Spotify and Soundcloud ads. Just something to consider if you are thinking about a new career in music and you are not a teenager.

Just pay close attention and compare the difference in ages between Patti and all the people in the background and backing band and the young teens in the video. You don't see that much anymore in mass media. ;-) I am even going to jump on a limb and say, even those teens in that video are too old by today's Instagram/TikTok standards to be in a hip video promoting a film to 15 year olds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtOoeDPc9uI
is this actually ageism?

Feels more like labels getting behind their established artist roster to me. I mean, they'd already invested in these artist's careers and could expect a reasonably predictable return on their investment, whereas new artists were more of a gamble, the big labels were never exactly known for their risk taking ... and since it cost so much to get into a studio in those days, it's not like kids could come along and disrupt as easily as they can today. Billie Eilish made her record at home didn't she? There were certainly disrupters, outsiders, smaller labels back then, etc.. but it was still much harder than it is today.. you still probably had to have a band, gigs or some way of distributing your demos or attracting a small label's attention. None of that is necessary today, you just need 'product' which you can produce at home.

That said, my favorite band of the last decade is probably Nathaniel Rateliff and the Nightsweats.. who don't look like kids exactly.. but also folks like Dan Auerbach, Brittney Howard, Delvon Lamarr, Nick Waterhouse, the Monophonics, Lady Wray, Kurhangbin, Durand Jones.. none of those have the look of kids the way they do in the contemporary pop world.. and yes, lots of these pop artists are kids.. but I think that makes sense, as mentioned above. Why wouldn't young people gravitate towards music made my other young people?

If anything feels like ageism, it was growing up listening to music from folks who were 20 years older than me and wondering why no one my age ever seemed to make records.. I listened almost exclusively to "classic rock" for the first 25 years of my life.. Surrounding Patti with kids was how the labels sold the music to kids.. but the labels were dying, and running well out of ideas by then... and now almost no one needs them to make music, but they sure need their artists.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #308
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unclenny ➡️
This one definitely doesn't!

Thank you!
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #309
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by themiracle ➡️
is this actually ageism?

Feels more like labels getting behind their established artist roster to me. I mean, they'd already invested in these artist's careers and could expect a reasonably predictable return on their investment, whereas new artists were more of a gamble, the big labels were never exactly known for their risk taking ... and since it cost so much to get into a studio in those days, it's not like kids could come along and disrupt as easily as they can today. Billie Eilish made her record at home didn't she? There were certainly disrupters, outsiders, smaller labels back then, etc.. but it was still much harder than it is today.. you still probably had to have a band, gigs or some way of distributing your demos or attracting a small label's attention. None of that is necessary today, you just need 'product' which you can produce at home.

That said, my favorite band of the last decade is probably Nathaniel Rateliff and the Nightsweats.. who don't look like kids exactly.. but also folks like Dan Auerbach, Brittney Howard, Delvon Lamarr, Nick Waterhouse, the Monophonics, Lady Wray, Kurhangbin, Durand Jones.. none of those have the look of kids the way they do in the contemporary pop world.. and yes, lots of these pop artists are kids.. but I think that makes sense, as mentioned above. Why wouldn't young people gravitate towards music made my other young people?

If anything feels like ageism, it was growing up listening to music from folks who were 20 years older than me and wondering why no one my age ever seemed to make records.. I listened almost exclusively to "classic rock" for the first 25 years of my life.. Surrounding Patti with kids was how the labels sold the music to kids.. but the labels were dying, and running well out of ideas by then... and now almost no one needs them to make music, but they sure need their artists.
Not sure if there is any truth to ageism or established "old guard" as you're suggesting. There have been young artists and older artists forever.

Country/folk/classical music probably has more older artists than any era of pop, but that's been like that forever.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #310
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
Not sure if there is any truth to ageism or established "old guard" as you're suggesting.
Well of course there ageism. But Ageism is embedded in the fandom. Labels are under no obligation to lose money trying to right the balance.
Quote:
There have been young artists and older artists forever
Still, the vast majority of "older" artists that you see are artists that hit big when they were young and then retained (or even grew) their audience as they (and their audience) aged. I think this is a mark in favor of the 'old guard' theory.

What's rare is an older artist 'breaking'. There might be one or two 40-year-olds "bursting on the scene" but it's rare.

Quote:
Country/folk/classical music probably has more older artists than any era of pop.
You would think especially classical would be all about closing your eyes and listening, but I have been noticing more and more female classical soloists who are being presented as "babes".

Last edited by joeq; 9th June 2021 at 11:02 PM.. Reason: there/their
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #311
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tymish's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
Well of course there ageism. But Ageism is embedded in the fandom. Labels are under no obligation to lose money trying to right the balance.

Still, the vast majority of "older" artists that you see are artists that hit big when they were young and then retained (or even grew) their audience as they (and their audience) aged. I think this is a mark in favor of the 'old guard' theory.

What's rare is an older artist 'breaking'. Their might be one or two 40-year-olds "bursting on the scene" but it's rare.



You would think especially classical would be all about closing your eyes and listening, but I have been noticing more and more female classical soloists who are being presented as "babes".
That's about the size of it. I couldn't imagine Sir Paul getting any notice of his latest record without his history. Same for most anyone over 30 something unless as the songwriter with a young singer performing.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #312
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telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
You would think especially classical would be all about closing your eyes and listening, but I have been noticing more and more female classical soloists who are being presented as "babes".
Very true. Some of those female classical artists on DG sometimes look like new country artists in long dining dresses.
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Old 9th June 2021 | Show parent
  #313
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode ➡️
Very true. Some of those female classical artists on DG sometimes look like new country artists in long dining dresses.
or miniskirts!
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #314
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
or miniskirts!
10/10 would listen again
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #315
Lives for gear
 
jm2c's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Is this GS again? I thought we're now woker 'spacers
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #316
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
or miniskirts!
They might just be keeping a lid on this...
Chris
Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #317
Gear Guru
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
Yes, there has always been a fairly large element of this... the most aesthetically pedestrian music earns some of the best income.

There are good reasons... It's the least offensive to the most people. It's the least challenging to the most tastes and preferences. Big audiences make for big income. Lowest common denominator is often the key to the easiest, biggest financial return. Jeremiah was a Bullfrog. Margaritaville. Who Let the Dogs Out. Achy Breaky Heart. Ride a Cowboy. My Humps, We Built This City, etc...

While genius artists like Townes Van Zants, Jesse Winchester, Woody Herman, Joe Higgs, Django, Joe Pass, etc... were scraping for rent in their old age. Compensation for artists is often structured like a pyramid. The higher you go on the aesthetics scale, the more difficult to earn income.

But it's not like coming up with Jeremiah is easy, or everyone would just do it and make millions. There is something about those massively sappy crappy successes that is special and unique... something.

And also, there are plenty of arguments debating that there is no such thing as high and low aesthetics. The only thing that matters is individual taste. Your kid's drawing stuck to your fridge actually IS as good a anything Picasso ever did. And I suspect that Picasso might have agreed with that POV. Debating that one thing is aesthetically "better" than another thing is a dead end road.

Even Mozart's Symphony for Flute and Harp vs. some kid playing Smoke on the Water at GC on Saturday morning. Sure one could cite all sorts of quantifiable reasons why Wolfi is superior, but when you enter the qualifiable reasons, everything falls apart. It all comes down to, "Because I say it's better and lots of people agree with me."
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #318
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➡️
@ dagg The streaming "debate" is pretty well known at this point, to state it briefly, many talented, hard working artists, songwriters, etc, aren't being paid fairly.
If you ask them. That's all I was getting at, although I don't disagree with the point of generally getting what you work for. But, specifically, many hard-working people don't seem to be getting even that. It's a huge disincentive.
You are right re. streaming, but it has never been a better time for songwriters and producers. There are more selling channels than ever, from movies, streaming, commercials to radio play.

Another point is that people don't listen to 98% of produced songs. The Top 20 chart is all they are listening to, if you are among them you get rich pretty quick, if not you will stay on a shoestring. Why is this happening, this is a whole another story. Best
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #319
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tymish's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagg ➡️
You are right re. streaming, but it has never been a better time for songwriters and producers. There are more selling channels than ever, from movies, streaming, commercials to radio play.

Another point is that people don't listen to 98% of produced songs. The Top 20 chart is all they are listening to, if you are among them you get rich pretty quick, if not you will stay on a shoestring. Why is this happening, this is a whole another story. Best
I've spent some time on streaming channels trying to find new artists i like. It's mind numbing to try and filter through it all. Click, hope in 10 seconds i like it.. click.. repeat ad nauseum. Without some kind of pre filtering selection you get tired of it. Then it's all about promotion as it always has been. Thing is now even after all the promotion the return is minuscule. How many plays does it take for the artist to get paid a dollar? Around 250 or so.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #320
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish ➡️
I've spent some time on streaming channels trying to find new artists i like. It's mind numbing to try and filter through it all. Click, hope in 10 seconds i like it.. click.. repeat ad nauseum. Without some kind of pre filtering selection you get tired of it. Then it's all about promotion as it always has been. Thing is now even after all the promotion the return is minuscule. How many plays does it take for the artist to get paid a dollar? Around 250 or so.
Well, 10 secs is not enough to get into new music. There are many many artists pre-Internet age where when I was first was exposed to them, I didn't like the music neither really get it. It was only after hearing lots of records and songs did I become a fan. You can't really use the 10 second test unless you are just looking for fluffy top 40 pop material. There are slews of artists that make really intricate and interesting music that is not targeted at capturing the casual drive by listener. Otherwise every song will be like a new country pop song where the hook comes at the beginning.

I find being attracted to an artist requires multiple exposures via multiple forms of media. It's part music, part image, part attitude. The music alone does not cut it.

Anyone remember Welsey Willis? He was an interesting alternative artist that was IMO the alternative to the alternative. He managed to achieve the impact of an alternative underground artist at 1/1000th of the budget of what alternative bands spent. It wasn't until you really listened to Welsey did you get what he was doing. He was making critical commentary on 90s society and culture. His music captured the absurdity of the 90s and is a sort of cultural document of the times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-WuR51w9yU

"the music was great.
the rock and roll was perfect.
the jam was terrific.
Rock over London, rock on Chicago
Diet Pepsi, uh-huh "

RIP Wesley..
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #321
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish ➡️
I've spent some time on streaming channels trying to find new artists i like. It's mind numbing to try and filter through it all. Click, hope in 10 seconds i like it.. click.. repeat ad nauseum. Without some kind of pre filtering selection you get tired of it. Then it's all about promotion as it always has been. Thing is now even after all the promotion the return is minuscule. How many plays does it take for the artist to get paid a dollar? Around 250 or so.
My Spotify Discovery Weekly is really really good. Astonishingly so. But I also "train" it with likes and dislikes, so it just keeps getting better.

Discovered a rad Nigerian funk/R&B band called the Funkees this morning listening to my Discovery Weekly.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #322
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
My Spotify Discovery Weekly is really really good. Astonishingly so. But I also "train" it with likes and dislikes, so it just keeps getting better.
100%. Sometimes algorithms are a big help. I find Spotify to be the best - for me - at this point. I have used Pandora too, and it "learns" . . . but I find it limited in terms of the scope of their offerings. Either way, I still think I'm really lucky to have these tools available.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #323
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
I generally do not rely on the algorithm as they dont work for me and my ADHD music tastes. I go to the source and curate it myself. My understanding is the Spotify/Amazon music curators follow the various trend setting sites to figure out what to curate. The only useful one is the Spotify Global Top 50. I go to it to randomly listen and try to figure out how far of the mark it is what I am doing from what is currently selling. It is usually a very painful listening experience.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #324
Lives for gear
 
tymish's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode ➡️
Well, 10 secs is not enough to get into new music. There are many many artists pre-Internet age where when I was first was exposed to them, I didn't like the music neither really get it. It was only after hearing lots of records and songs did I become a fan. You can't really use the 10 second test unless you are just looking for fluffy top 40 pop material. There are slews of artists that make really intricate and interesting music that is not targeted at capturing the casual drive by listener. Otherwise every song will be like a new country pop song where the hook comes at the beginning.

I find being attracted to an artist requires multiple exposures via multiple forms of media. It's part music, part image, part attitude. The music alone does not cut it.
Sure 10 seconds isn't enough. But I don't have all my waking hours available to plow through the millions of submitted tracks out there.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #325
Lives for gear
 
tymish's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by telecode ➡️
I generally do not rely on the algorithm as they dont work for me and my ADHD music tastes. I go to the source and curate it myself. My understanding is the Spotify/Amazon music curators follow the various trend setting sites to figure out what to curate. The only useful one is the Spotify Global Top 50. I go to it to randomly listen and try to figure out how far of the mark it is what I am doing from what is currently selling. It is usually a very painful listening experience.
They don't work well for me either. Seems to just repeat my old favorites rather than find new things which is the goal.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #326
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tymish ➡️
Sure 10 seconds isn't enough. But I don't have all my waking hours available to plow through the millions of submitted tracks out there.
I usually put on spotify and headphones and listen to playlists while I run. Sometimes you come across some truly great stuff -- but you only figure it out when you are in the middle of the song. I guess it really depends on what it is you are listening to.
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Old 10th June 2021
  #327
Lives for gear
 
I'd love to be able to simply pick and choose from selections in a playlist. But my musical tastes are so weird most playlists don't have anything I'm interested in. We're expanding our cafe business and now post-pandemic I can have the public back inside - so I'm trying to figure out music for the shop. I used to have Pandora for Business (to be copyright-kosher) but it ended up recycling a lot of the same stuff. Spotify has what they call "Soundtrack Your Brand", and I find Spotify has pretty much everything you could want - but it comes down to - how do you curate many hours of the kind of music you like. I know - first world problems. . . .
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #328
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
...I can have the public back inside - so I'm trying to figure out music for the shop. I used to have Pandora for Business (to be copyright-kosher) but it ended up recycling a lot of the same stuff. Spotify has what they call "Soundtrack Your Brand", and I find Spotify has pretty much everything you could want - but it comes down to - how do you curate many hours of the kind of music you like. I know - first world problems. . . .
now that I have had my shots and not having groceries delivered anymore, I am back to the supermarket. I noticed that instead of the "hits" that they used to play over the sound system, they are now playing "covers of hits". They are very similar arrangements, same tempos and keys but not the original artists. It took me a while to notice. But when a song comes on that I know well, it is easier to tell. It really surprised me when I stopped under a speaker and actually listened. Hey this isn't The Eagles!

I am assuming this must be some kind of cost-saving feature. Maybe they did a one-time buy-out deal for the music?
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #329
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
Yes, there has always been a fairly large element of this... the most aesthetically pedestrian music earns some of the best income.

There are good reasons... It's the least offensive to the most people.
I had a beer next to someone involved in picking songs for one of the network crime procedurals. You know the kind -- they're right at the end, usually sparse, mid-tempo, mostly female -- and she was telling me how hard those songs were to find. Because they had to have some emotional gravity, but not actually be about anything.
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Old 10th June 2021 | Show parent
  #330
Lives for gear
 
telecode's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
I had a beer next to someone involved in picking songs for one of the network crime procedurals. You know the kind -- they're right at the end, usually sparse, mid-tempo, mostly female -- and she was telling me how hard those songs were to find. Because they had to have some emotional gravity, but not actually be about anything.
those two things contradict each other. everything is about something. whether people interpret it the way it was mean to be interpreted or whether they interpret it differently it doens't matter. its their interpretation of it. but there is meaning in everything. even staring at a blank sky has meaning.
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