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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3241
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Your insane ignorance of world history is.... I cannot express it in words. Disappointing in how sure you are of yourself?
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3242
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
Your insane ignorance of world history is.... I cannot express it in words. Disappointing in how sure you are of yourself?
I didn't want to have to say this, so I threw in the towel on the discussion.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3243
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
... Disappointing in how sure you are of yourself?
or... i'm putting it out here, so that anyone can tell me exactly where i'm wrong. these are the questions i keep asking. correct me.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3244
Deleted 531acb6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️

My point is there are many things that we are conditioned to think of as unbiased that are biased.

Say you enroll in college.
Your Human Psych class won't say "European" Psychology.

But have you seen one with anyone African in it?

Now, is the assumption that African people have contributed nothing to Human Psychology? Sociology? Mathematics? Science?
Isn't psychology - like most sciences - independent of race? Or are you stating there is African psychology and European psychology?
More to the point - how would a university psych class in Kenya differ from one in the UK? would they not mention Freud?
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3245
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
or... i'm putting it out here, so that anyone can tell me exactly where i'm wrong. these are the questions i keep asking. correct me.
I fully endorse you educating yourself, or better yet, getting a proper education on subjects that interest you by experts with PhDs (and internet boards and reddit do not count). There was a lot of European and Western Chauvinism in the ideas you were tossing out, too much to really get into here. They're seductive concepts used by white supremecist groups (Proud Boys, etc) to advance the idea that classical western social sciences are the only way to view the world and that most advancement comes from Europe. Of course it looks that way in our history books. Unfortunately you have to step outside of that classical education to see what western culture has stolen and exploited to write history that way.
Sorry if I came hard and you want to learn, but it kind of shocked me, especially the picture you selected.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3246
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_b_b ➡️
Isn't psychology - like most sciences - independent of race? Or are you stating there is African psychology and European psychology?
More to the point - how would a university psych class in Kenya differ from one in the UK? would they not mention Freud?
Psychology is a soft social science, not a hard science. Math works no matter where you are in the world (or universe probably).
Current western psychology wouldn't teach Freud except as a "this is what we were thinking in Europe at one point in history," but no, you can't just teach classical western society social sciences as some sort of universal principal. It just isn't.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3247
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IM WHO YOU THINK's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by m_b_b ➡️
Isn't psychology - like most sciences - independent of race? Or are you stating there is African psychology and European psychology?
More to the point - how would a university psych class in Kenya differ from one in the UK? would they not mention Freud?
With out going in depth, let's just say there are a lot of "sources" not given proper credit.

How can a text be "independent of race" if there was a societal belief that Africans were inferior being spread to justify oppression?

For instance:
The "socratic method" didn't start with Socrates.

(And let's not even open the lid on religion. That's an entirely differn't can of historical worms)
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3248
Deleted 531acb6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️
With out going in depth, let's just say there are a lot of "sources" not given proper credit.

How can a text be "independent of race" if there was a societal belief that Africans were inferior being spread to justify oppression?

For instance:
The "socratic method" didn't start with Socrates.

(And let's not even open the lid on religion. That's an entirely differn't can of historical worms)
So - is psychology, or any topic for that matter, taught differently in Africa then in the UK? Is Freud mentioned, or no - as he could be reviewed as the 'oppressor?'
Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3249
Deleted 531acb6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
Math works no matter where you are in the world (or universe probably).
all those reports of math being racist must be wrong then
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3250
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 531acb6 ➡️
all those reports of math being racist must be wrong then
I hope you're being funny
There's a lot of issues with the "show your work" method. It's not about math being racist, it's about the rigid way it's taught. I thought I was terrible at math as a kid. In college it turned out I was great at it, it's just like music! But I had horrible math teachers and they didn't actually teach me anything. YMMV
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3251
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 531acb6 ➡️
all those reports of math being racist must be wrong then
That was a CNN article title about a book called "Weapons of Math Destruction" by Cathy O'Neil.

It does not in any way state that the way math is taught is racist. Certain media jumped on the headline and completely fabricated this meaning.

The book is about how current algorithms and technicals models target the poor, reinforcing racism.

For example "The police analyze zip codes to deploy officers, employers use credit scores to gauge responsibility, payday lenders assess grammar to determine credit worthiness. But zip codes are also a stand-in for race, credit scores for wealth, and poor grammar for immigrants.
. .
This "creates a dangerous poverty cycle," O'Neil writes. "If you can't get a job because of your credit record, that record will likely get worse, making it even harder to work."

https://money.cnn.com/2016/09/06/tec...ion/index.html
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3252
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
... There was a lot of European and Western Chauvinism in the ideas you were tossing out, too much to really get into here. They're seductive concepts used by white supremecist groups (Proud Boys, etc) to advance the idea that classical western social sciences are the only way to view the world and that most advancement comes from Europe. Of course it looks that way in our history books.
whoah... hold on. NONE of what i'm thinking/saying/asking comes from any outside "source" like those you mention. i don't follow any of that, or condone it. i speak from 40+ years of observation.

most of the people i'm around day to day are black/hispanic. we're good.

Quote:
Unfortunately you have to step outside of that classical education to see what western culture has stolen and exploited to write history that way.
sounds good to me.

Quote:
Sorry if I came hard and you want to learn, but it kind of shocked me, especially the picture you selected.
sorry, i googled "african congo" and that came up.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3253
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
whoah... hold on. NONE of what i'm thinking/saying/asking comes from any outside "source" like those you mention. i don't follow any of that, or condone it. i speak from 40+ years of observation.

most of the people i'm around day to day are black/hispanic. we're good.
That's what's wild, how these white supremacy concepts have infiltrated (or always been present in) those who aren't even aware of it.

This is how my family is, the ones who taught me there were only white quarterbacks because blacks weren't smart enough when I was growing up. They don't see themselves as racist and never did.

Its indeed difficult to address your last few posts without a 10,000 word essay because of how thoroughly off base the framing is.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3254
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
whoah... hold on. NONE of what i'm thinking/saying/asking comes from any outside "source" like those you mention. i don't follow any of that, or condone it. i speak from 40+ years of observation.

most of the people i'm around day to day are black/hispanic. we're good.



sounds good to me.



sorry, i googled "african congo" and that came up.
I threw that PB comment in there without intending that what you're saying is part of them. But the ideas of western chauvinism are ingrained in our culture and our educational system making it basically invisible. Those groups take it a step farther and say the quiet part out loud.
Sorry, didn't want to suggest you're a white supremecists, but as just noted above me those ideas are so mainstreamed as to be invisible to most people.
Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3255
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
I hope you're being funny
There's a lot of issues with the "show your work" method. It's not about math being racist, it's about the rigid way it's taught. I thought I was terrible at math as a kid. In college it turned out I was great at it, it's just like music! But I had horrible math teachers and they didn't actually teach me anything. YMMV
Ahh just googled it. The "math is racist" thing came around again in a different way February this year.

Up until Feb, the last few years, the "math is racist" thing had to do with misrepresenting that CNN article title I linked.

I'll have to look more into the "show your work" thing. It appears it was a page out of an optional micro-course for teachers in Oregon that got cancelled. The course seems to mostly be about challenging the status quo in a way that might help teachers better connect with students and get them engaged in math. With some suggestions that are easy ridicule targets, which is probably why it was cancelled.
Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3256
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jeremy.c.'s Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
Ahh just googled it. The "math is racist" thing came around again in a different way February this year.

Up until Feb, the last few years, the "math is racist" thing had to do with misrepresenting that CNN article title I linked.

I'll have to look more into the "show your work" thing. It appears it was a page out of an optional micro-course for teachers in Oregon that got cancelled. The course seems to mostly be about challenging the status quo in a way that might help teachers better connect with students and get them engaged in math. With some suggestions that are easy ridicule targets, which is probably why it was cancelled.
Yeah, and now it has roundly been touted as evidence of the woke agenda at work
Some motherfudgers are always trying to ice skate uphill.
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Old 19th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3257
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ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 531acb6 ➡️
all those reports of math being racist must be wrong then
The environment in which math is taught and processed is not equitable in myriad ways. That's not too hard a concept to comprehend. As it pertains to black Americans, yes it is racist and is part and parcel with the systemic and institutional racism they've had to endure from 1619 to this day.

It's not necessarily solely based on race, there are also socioeconomic factors - you're just as likely to have underperformance among lower-income white and brown populations. That environment plays a major role is shown by Asian Americans who tend to perform much better in math regardless of income levels.

There's no genetic component to intelligence. I hope there are no William Shockley's on this forum...
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Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3258
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TREMORS's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy.c. ➡️
I threw that PB comment in there without intending that what you're saying is part of them. But the ideas of western chauvinism are ingrained in our culture and our educational system making it basically invisible. Those groups take it a step farther and say the quiet part out loud.
Sorry, didn't want to suggest you're a white supremecists, but as just noted above me those ideas are so mainstreamed as to be invisible to most people.
It's often not so much a lack of education either.

It's a choice.
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Old 20th August 2021
  #3259
Gear Guru
 
chessparov2.0's Avatar
 
I will try to properly review the last 50 or so posts (been busy working) soon.

But... Just had to add there are significant contributions from people of all walks of life, throughout the whole world.

African folklore for one thing, is a deep well.
(To say the least)
Exploring Just a fraction of it, I was astonished by the wisdom of many of the stories.

Including those by the Bushman.
Chris
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Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3260
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kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
That's what's wild, how these white supremacy concepts have infiltrated (or always been present in) those who aren't even aware of it.

This is how my family is, the ones who taught me there were only white quarterbacks because blacks weren't smart enough when I was growing up. They don't see themselves as racist and never did.
There are soft racists and hard racists. Soft racists do not think of themselves as racist. Hard are loud and proud. Pre mid/late 60's, hard racism was mainstream.

My experience.... Family was race neutral. I was totally isolated from racism until my family moved to Cocoa Beach FL, 3rd grade, 1963. I went with my mom to the Cocoa courthouse. There were two water fountains; White and Colored. It thought "Colored? Florida's cool! We don't have colored water up north." Pulled up a chair, and climbed up to drink the neat colored water! Before my mom could stop me, a cop (think Rod Steiger Heat of the Night) runs over, grabs me and yells something like, "Hey boy, don't be drinkin' that n****** water!" Mayhem ensued, I was balling, and mom almost ended up in handcuffs. I remember like it happened yesterday.

By mid late 60's, the colored fountains in Cocoa were gone, hard racism was no longer acceptable, and "soft racism" went mainstream. But I guarantee that cop didn't change. So much denial of racism, while it flourished for decades, healthy as ever, under the hood. Then, four years ago, we returned to the 50's, and it became OK to be hard racist again in the US.

So yeah, white supremacy concepts are always present, but the public optics change. I honestly do not know what's more distressing. Hidden and denied, or loud and proud. Maybe it doesn't much matter.
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Old 20th August 2021
  #3261
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"Ain't nothin' changed"
Young black man in Selma Alabama from "Blue Highways" by William Least Heat Moon
Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3262
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
... This is how my family is, the ones who taught me there were only white quarterbacks because blacks weren't smart enough when I was growing up. They don't see themselves as racist and never did.
you said this was in the 80s/90s? in the days of Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham? Doug Williams? that's about the time i stopped watching/caring, but if they were saying this then, you're going easy on them.

Quote:
Its indeed difficult to address your last few posts without a 10,000 word essay because of how thoroughly off base the framing is.
we've got all the time in the world. have at it.
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Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3263
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ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob 28 ➡️
"Ain't nothin' changed"
Young black man in Selma Alabama from "Blue Highways" by William Least Heat Moon
OTOH,


Love George, a genius musician, maybe the greatest jazz guitar player ever. He sometimes shows his influences too easily in his vocal stylings - tell me doesn't he sound like Stevie on Everything Must Change?

Tell me doesn't he kinda sound like Al Jarreau at times here. Am I tripping?
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Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3264
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ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
you said this was in the 80s/90s? in the days of Warren Moon and Randall Cunningham? Doug Williams? that's about the time i stopped watching/caring, but if they were saying this then, you're going easy on them.



we've got all the time in the world. have at it.
More current (8/2/2021):

How ‘race-norming’ was built into the NFL concussion settlement
The NFL and lawyers for former players blame the controversial practice on doctors. But both sides negotiated a settlement that guaranteed race would affect payouts — and defended the practice long after concerns were raised.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...on-settlement/
Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3265
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
we've got all the time in the world. have at it.
I'll try to cut to the core.

Your response to this plea for the greater consideration of Africa. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK ➡️
Now, is the assumption that African people have contributed nothing to Human Psychology? Sociology? Mathematics? Science?
. . was to post a picture of a Pygmy tribe and say "not most of Africa."

I mean. . . think about that dude. What inspired that as your response? When someone suggests Africa has made meaningful contributions to the world that don't get recognized, why is that your impulse?

You can do that move to anything. Post a picture of a bunch of fat red faced Americans and say "not most of America." Why is that where you go when it turns to appreciation of Africa???
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Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3266
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 ➡️
I'll try to cut to the core.

Your response to this plea for the greater consideration of Africa. . .

. . was to post a picture of a Pygmy tribe and say "not most of Africa."
yep, it was. much of this is stuff that i've never really looked into, i never really thought about exactly where in Africa most slaves were brought over from. i'm thinking "who are your/their real ancestors? what might they have contributed to Human Psychology? Sociology? Mathematics? Science?"


a quick glance tells me that a large percentage of those that came to the US in the early 19th century were from the African Congo region. i looked them up, that's what i found. looked pretty plausible. i held off posting a picture from the 1800s with a bunch of guys in chains (held captive by another black African), but they looked about the same. turns out it was more West Africa than Congo (??), but they look about the same as well.

should i have posted a photo of a different group, maybe dressed up in nice tailored suits? like Bill Cosby? showing us examples of "white black guys" as if they're a closer representation? that was almost painful to watch. obviously there is no barrier for learning/potential, but maybe look at how one fares on their own. how do you explain the complete lack of development compared to Asia/Europe over hundreds or thousands of years? "oppression"?

i said i'm generalizing with a lot of these "assumptions", but you guys sure like to avoid the completely obvious. again, if i'm really off-base (other than being just plain rude even posing these questions) let me know. what do you really think a good answer to his question might have been? can he even answer that, or is he banking on the fact that it was "lost to oppression"? who knows, maybe it was. we know pretty well how much other history was simply erased over the years everywhere else, but when most of the continent were basically "cavemen" (mainly due to environment, and correct me if i'm wrong and there were more "advanced" areas) i'm a little skeptical.

which African people? can you frame it like that? like i said, i don't think the Renaissance took place on a farm in Sicily. when you can pretty much pinpoint exactly where everyone (generally) came from and look at what was going on there then/now i don't think i'm making any outlandish assumptions. ...am i being a complete asshole to even mention any of this? sure, but i'd like to hear your side/explanations. i'm hoping you guys have thought more about all this than i have.
Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3267
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS ➡️
It's often not so much a lack of education either.

It's a choice.
yeah, on both sides. "pride" in complete ignorance.

myself, i'd be happy to have my mind changed on any of this.
Old 20th August 2021
  #3268
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
sort of back on topic, this reminded me of something i did a few years ago for a friend...

i did some work for a woman and spent a lot of time talking with her, just listening to her speak was something else. one day we got talking about my hobbies and she lit right up, she wanted to record a song. i had her sing a few lines and recorded it on my phone. went home and chopped/sequenced it (her internal timing was almost dead on), but didn't know where to go from there. a day or two later i met a guy at work who grew up playing in church, totally brought it all together. he stopped over one afternoon and we threw this together quick using some stock NI instruments. i think the handclaps were a nice touch, if i do say so myself (sorry about the snares):



it was quick, sounds like hell, but she was thrilled. she lost me when she started talking about making money from it, wanted to be a rock star. i need to stop and see how she's been doing.

he totally saved it, i don't think she would have liked what i originally had in mind:

Old 20th August 2021 | Show parent
  #3269
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ElmoHope's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc ➡️
yeah, on both sides. "pride" in complete ignorance.

myself, i'd be happy to have my mind changed on any of this.
Don't kid yourself, I don't think you want to change...
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Old 20th August 2021
  #3270
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jbuonacc's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
i don’t think you know what there is i need to “change”.
Closed

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