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Analog vs Digital Emulations - A culinary comparison
Old 9th May 2021
  #31
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Audio Child's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well food all goes out the rear which in theory most music gets streamed using crappy speaker boxes regardless of the analog circuitry!

Also consider me a food connoisseur but i just had a microwave meal which pretty much did what it was meant to!!
Old 10th May 2021
  #32
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Musician's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Stupid thread
Old 10th May 2021 | Show parent
  #33
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➡️
Something like, "Get out of my kitchen."
The culinary version of "Get off my lawn kid!" old guy waves cane.
Old 10th May 2021 | Show parent
  #34
COD
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician ➡️
Stupid thread
This.
Old 13th May 2021 | Show parent
  #35
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
But if you are telling me that the emulations sounds the same as the original hardware, it’s like saying a dish made with garlic powder has the same taste than one made with fresh garlic.
Just because you don’t hear the difference, doesn’t mean it’s not there.”
Well, as this is so obvious to you that the "magic of analog" is not there with respect to plugins, tell me about these samples of these classic compressor models in any recording studio, which I call A, B , C, D, F, G, which is the one corresponding to the real hardware and which is its emulation in software, "1" or "2".
Attached Files

COMP G 1.wav (2.28 MB, 880 views)

COMP E 1.wav (9.12 MB, 769 views)

COMP D 2.wav (2.79 MB, 780 views)

COMP C 1.wav (7.25 MB, 760 views)

COMP B 2.wav (2.79 MB, 785 views)

COMP G 2.wav (1.54 MB, 879 views)

COMP D 1.wav (2.78 MB, 781 views)

COMP B 1.wav (2.78 MB, 777 views)

COMP A 1.wav (2.02 MB, 770 views)

COMP A 2.wav (2.03 MB, 778 views)

COMP F 2.wav (3.01 MB, 775 views)

COMP F 1.wav (3.01 MB, 767 views)

Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
2 Cents...

Hello Analogue and Digital fellow music makers...I think I have a unique perspective since my first album came out 50 years ago in Jan, 4 track in NYC, mixed Capitol Studio B, sold 1.5 million to day, total budget $1,200 1971 dollars.

Major label too, Psycho Monkey homage!

I personally believe that the chef fast food is a perfect analogy.

Animation vs film making another good analogy.

Here is the applicabe quote. I remember thinking of this when a very well know Sl...um, Spacer?...said that well, I know digital sucks but I have to use it...to make a living.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”


Upton Sinclair


All good, I did things in the studio back in the day to make a living too, even worked for a couple of famous execs who were full of it and listened to their bull**** for the paycheck.

But, objectively, have you ever listened to the same track on good vinyl vs digital?

Or check out Clearmountain's mix of Chic (even on You Tube videos) vs his ProTools Fogerty work.

If Clearmountain can't make a kick sound like his Chic kick in PT, you won't be able to either.

I came back to music 11 years ago to see what was happening, wanted to love digital.

But, I have ears. There is a difference.

One question:

Given the identical quality ofr reporduction of the source, would you rather hear the vinyl or the digital version?

fyi...i don't think digital recording like RADAR is as much of a problem as the plug in processing of stems..that's the rub, so it is isnt tape or nothing folks
Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #37
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RADAR User ➡️
Hello Analogue and Digital fellow music makers...I think I have a unique perspective since my first album came out 50 years ago in Jan, 4 track in NYC, mixed Capitol Studio B, sold 1.5 million to day, total budget $1,200 1971 dollars.

Major label too, Psycho Monkey homage!

I personally believe that the chef fast food is a perfect analogy.

Animation vs film making another good analogy.

Here is the applicabe quote. I remember thinking of this when a very well know Sl...um, Spacer?...said that well, I know digital sucks but I have to use it...to make a living.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”


Upton Sinclair


All good, I did things in the studio back in the day to make a living too, even worked for a couple of famous execs who were full of it and listened to their bull**** for the paycheck.

But, objectively, have you ever listened to the same track on good vinyl vs digital?

Or check out Clearmountain's mix of Chic (even on You Tube videos) vs his ProTools Fogerty work.

If Clearmountain can't make a kick sound like his Chic kick in PT, you won't be able to either.

I came back to music 11 years ago to see what was happening, wanted to love digital.

But, I have ears. There is a difference.

One question:

Given the identical quality ofr reporduction of the source, would you rather hear the vinyl or the digital version?

fyi...i don't think digital recording like RADAR is as much of a problem as the plug in processing of stems..that's the rub, so it is isnt tape or nothing folks
I like a good clean digital recording, pressing over vinyl any day of the week - I’m old enough to have suffered listening through the cracks, pops, hiss, wow and flutter plus poor dynamic range of vinyl through the early years of my musical life - no need to “wax” nostalgic about it now.

I enjoy a good memory lane session too, as long as they don’t become memory lapses.
Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #38
Lives for gear
 
No offense meant to the OP, but arguing about "analog vs digital emulations", it's like you're arguing whether Beef-a-roni or Beef-a-ghetti is better.

What you really want is "acoustic emulations". Unless your man-cave is a real grotto, with boutique baffling to emulate a canyon, then all your food is just garbage with lots of MSG.
Old 14th May 2021
  #39
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16 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padano ➡️
Hi everyone. I’ve been following this forum forever and remember posting here back in the days.
Anyway I was following another thread about the ethereal fight between analog and digital emulation and I think I came up with a good analogy.

“You are a Chef at a restaurant and you are making a meal for your customers (the mix). You can either use more expensive fresh ingredients (analog gear) or a bunch of dehydrated powders and chemical additives (plugins).
Like modern plug-ins, some food additives can improve the results in better ways than old school methods, I’ll give you that.
But if you are telling me that the emulations sounds the same as the original hardware, it’s like saying a dish made with garlic powder has the same taste than one made with fresh garlic.
Just because you don’t hear the difference, doesn’t mean it’s not there.”

What you guys think about this? Does this at least clarify the ethereal dilemma?
First, nice way to jump back into the (ultimately pointless) debate of analog vs software signal processing, and you've done it with a logic fallacy. Your analogy begs the question of whether plug-ins are indeed akin to dried seasonings. That's probably not provable since different human senses are at play and the "material" in question (plug-ins) aren't physical objects.

Secondly, lets clarify what that debate is about.

Is it:
A.)Plug-ins, when they emulate hardware, sound indistinguishable from the gear they emulate.

or

B.)The end-listener cannot tell if a well mixed track used plug-ins or hardware.(?)

Addressing your comment,
Quote:
...Just because you don’t hear the difference, doesn’t mean it’s not there.
I ask you: If you can't detect something (i.e. hearing whether a signal processing tool used was analog or software) how could you know if it (domain of analog or digital tool) was there or not?
Furthermore, if you actually can't detect something (in the case of listening to well mixed audio) how does it matter at all?

DISCLAIMER: I really don't give a $hit one way or another. But I love picking at faulty logic.
Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand ➡️
First, nice way to jump back into the (ultimately pointless) debate of analog vs software signal processing, and you've done it with a logic fallacy.

DISCLAIMER: I really don't give a $hit one way or another. But I love picking at faulty logic.
What exactly is the logical fallacy here, care to explain?
Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #41
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Enlightened Hand's Avatar
 
16 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdtrbn ➡️
What exactly is the logical fallacy here, care to explain?
It's called begging the question, and in this case false analogy as well.

The OP makes a determination (specifically that there is some similarity to eating fresh seasonings vs dried seasonings and the analog vs digital debate) that rests on the assumption that plug-ins are indeed analogous to dried seasonings.

We have yet to (and probably can't) determine if plug-ins can even be compared to dried seasonings, so their whole argument is illogical, not to mention the two points I brought up at the end of my original response.
Old 14th May 2021 | Show parent
  #42
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand ➡️
It's called begging the question, and in this case false analogy as well.

The OP makes a determination (specifically that there is some similarity to eating fresh seasonings vs dried seasonings and the analog vs digital debate) that rests on the assumption that plug-ins are indeed analogous to dried seasonings.

We have yet to (and probably can't) determine if plug-ins can even be compared to dried seasonings, so their whole argument is illogical, not to mention the two points I brought up at the end of my original response.
When a recipe calls for oregano, always use dried. Fresh oregano lacks the intensity of the dried equivalent.
Old 14th May 2021
  #43
Gear Addict
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padano ➡️
Hi everyone. I’ve been following this forum forever and remember posting here back in the days.
Anyway I was following another thread about the ethereal fight between analog and digital emulation and I think I came up with a good analogy.

“You are a Chef at a restaurant and you are making a meal for your customers (the mix). You can either use more expensive fresh ingredients (analog gear) or a bunch of dehydrated powders and chemical additives (plugins).
Like modern plug-ins, some food additives can improve the results in better ways than old school methods, I’ll give you that.
But if you are telling me that the emulations sounds the same as the original hardware, it’s like saying a dish made with garlic powder has the same taste than one made with fresh garlic.
Just because you don’t hear the difference, doesn’t mean it’s not there.”

What you guys think about this? Does this at least clarify the ethereal dilemma?
Couldn't care less if I can't hear it.
Old 15th May 2021 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Guru
 
monkeyxx's Avatar
 
18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
When a recipe calls for oregano, always use dried. Fresh oregano lacks the intensity of the dried equivalent.
You haven't tried the stuff that grows here!

Dried version is good too. Basically fresh over grocery store is the idea.
Old 15th May 2021 | Show parent
  #45
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Arthur Stone's Avatar
 
90 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
When a recipe calls for oregano, always use dried. Fresh oregano lacks the intensity of the dried equivalent.
I prefer the fresh oregano from my plant...better chi. Dried oregano has a bitter taste...like digital : D
Old 15th May 2021
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
vashuba's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I thought you had some food for us….
Old 15th May 2021
  #47
Lives for gear
Well, this is Gearspace... not Safespace
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #48
Here for the gear
 
Well, I was waiting for someone to answer the blind-test, and in all the internet forums where I propose it, nobody answers, everyone talks, blah blah blah, they make excuses, but nothing.

The problem in the emulations lies in the high CPU consumption of the computer, which limits the number of instances you can open of these hardware emulation plugins, and the infernal workflow.But how much does the hardware sound better than the software? ? That is no longer the problem or the difference, maybe it was in the past, and as the years go by the digital world will continue to develop and sound better and better.

I agree with this:

A.) Plug-ins, when they emulate hardware, sound indistinguishable from the gear they emulate.

B.) The end-listener cannot tell if a well mixed track used plug-ins or hardware.

I also agree that as the mastering with hardware there is nothing, and that the hadware in the tracking is still necessary.

Both those who prefer to work in analog and digital, both are right, they are equally valid, but the best mixes in my own experience are the hybrids, using the best of both worlds.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #49
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenny77 ➡️
The problem in the emulations lies in the high CPU consumption of the computer, which limits the number of instances you can open of these hardware emulation plugins
Instances-per-buck is surely the number one benefit of software emulations in the first place. Most home/family PC's could run many more classic compressors than you could afford with the money spent on said PC.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #50
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
it seems to me that some people here are not aware of a very important reason why some of us use hardware:

it's not about analog vs digital or how many instances we have,

it's simply 'cause we (still) have the hardware

and that we're pretty much used to working with it, besides the simple joys of tactile suface, huge power bills, excessive heat, broken lcd's etc.

___


i find most comparisons pretty much useless (as hardly anyone around here has spent several decades working profesionally in each domain) - and for every alledged disadvantage, lack of authenticity or attributed superority and hype, i could tell you a bunch of undeniable advantages which are not unique to a specific domain but exclusively to an individual piece of gear/software/emulation, the way it is hooked up/installed, interacts with the rest of the chain etc. and only then becomes a (more or less) valuable tool - that said, i'm using (almost all) but digital hardware and i'm glad the analog days are (mostly) gone, except for the front end and some esotheric mastering gear...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #51
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Arthur Stone's Avatar
 
90 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
The egg is analogue; the eggshell digital.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #52
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone ➡️
The egg is analogue; the eggshell digital.
Or - the egg is the vacuum, the shell is the glass!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #53
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
it seems to me that some people here are not aware of a very important reason why some of us use hardware:

it's not about analog vs digital or how many instances we have,

it's simply 'cause we (still) have the hardware

and that we're pretty much used to working with it, besides the simple joys of tactile suface, huge power bills, excessive heat, broken lcd's etc.

___


i find most comparisons pretty much useless (as hardly anyone around here has spent several decades working profesionally in each domain) - and for every alledged disadvantage, lack of authenticity or attributed superority and hype, i could tell you a bunch of undeniable advantages which are not unique to a specific domain but exclusively to an individual piece of gear/software/emulation, the way it is hooked up/installed, interacts with the rest of the chain etc. and only then becomes a (more or less) valuable tool - that said, i'm using (almost all) but digital hardware and i'm glad the analog days are (mostly) gone, except for the front end and some esotheric mastering gear...
Very true - I still drive a stick because it’s what I’m used to, however, today’s automatics have bettered any manual transmission in terms of performance, efficiency and smoothness.

Manual transmissions are fun and hands on, there’s a visceral quality to being engaged with the drivetrain, all missing from even the best ZF auto.

It’s the best argument that can still be made for hardware - its tactile nature.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #54
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
Very true - I still drive a stick because it’s what I’m used to, however, today’s automatics have bettered any manual transmission in terms of performance, efficiency and smoothness.

Manual transmissions are fun and hands on, there’s a visceral quality to being engaged with the drivetrain, all missing from even the best ZF auto.

It’s the best argument that can still be made for hardware - its tactile nature.
I think the roads would be a safer place if everyone drove stick. And not because they're on their phones (they are), but because of that connection to the road.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #55
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
it's not about analog vs digital or how many instances we have
If one doesn't own the hardware unit already; the cost aquiring instances can actually be a crucial factor in weather hardware of software is used.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #56
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🎧 10 years
I think a better food analogy would be organic vs genetically modified.

Many people cannot tell the difference in the end result, but there are extremists on both sides who argue about whether differences exist.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnylang ➡️
I think a better food analogy would be organic vs genetically modified.

Many people cannot tell the difference in the end result, but there are extremists on both sides who argue about whether differences exist.
Yeah, or just organic/farm-to-table vs conventionally grown ingredients.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #58
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLSD ➡️
If one doesn't own the hardware unit already; the cost aquiring instances can actually be a crucial factor in weather hardware of software is used.
costs are (almost) always a consideration, regardless of gear, preferences, workflow etc. but may not need to be the decisive factor.

i mostly value other aspects higher but then, i'm mostly working live/broadcasting and i don't wanna change gear/platform when working in the studio so i stick to hardware - end of discussion!

[funny enough, some of my 'hardware' are pc's, running plugins...]
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #59
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
costs are (almost) always a consideration, regardless of gear, preferences, workflow etc. but may not need to be the decisive factor.

i mostly value other aspects higher but then, i'm mostly working live/broadcasting and i don't wanna change gear/platform when working in the studio so i stick to hardware - end of discussion!

[funny enough, some of my 'hardware' are pc's, running plugins...]
In an ideal world my setup wouldn't change much, a big rack of API eq's and a couple SSL bus comps would be great though.

However, I am greatful to live in a time when we have such incredible tools so easily at our disposal ITB and I certainly loose no sleep about the possible improvements those hardware items could make. The flexibility of working solely with VST's is something I'd probably miss quite quickly.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #60
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLSD ➡️
In an ideal world my setup wouldn't change much, a big rack of API eq's and a couple SSL bus comps would be great though.

However, I am greatful to live in a time when we have such incredible tools so easily at our disposal ITB and I certainly loose no sleep about the possible improvements those hardware items could make. The flexibility of working solely with VST's is something I'd probably miss quite quickly.
...except that itb isn't an option when mixing or broadcasting live and using emulations of oldish gear isn't always wanted or needed:

my impression is that far too many people vastly overestimate the impact of specific gear (original, clone or emulation) on the overall sound - if specific gear would be that much important, it should be possible to indentify gear upon listening to fully mixed/mastered tracks! however, no one can do so!

i acknowledge that some gear (analog, or digital, hardware or software) makes us feel good, is nice to own and use - there's nothing wrong with using it for these reasons alone! if it additionally helps to achieve a sonic landscape one is after efficiently, even better...

...but it's worth considering the fact that not everyone is after specific gear for its (alleged) unique 'sound' but for its abilty to perform a specific task thanks to its specific 'design' (in the widest sense)!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 05:10 PM.. Reason: typo
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