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Recording Trumpet (classical) Solo
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 
Recording Trumpet (classical) Solo

Hy, i have questions about recording classical Trumpet.
I'm recording myself more frequently now (no concerts...) and want to ask
which mic techniques i should use/try in a good environment (a tiny concert hall/church) and at home (a little acoustical treatment with sonorock 20 cm)?

Until now i used 2 414 XLII in M/S position at home and the same or DIN with two small condensers in the small concert hall.
Because i had a lot distance to the mics because of the air sounds and hisses i decided to get a MD441 and to use this one as mid mic.

When i see Videos where famous trumpet players are recording (Alison Balsom has a few videos on You Tube where you can see a microphone 'Armada' while recording), they use like 10 Microphones alone just for the solo Instrument. Especially the microphones on the left or/and right side on the bell are interesting. The other mics look like several different AB pairs and other stereo mic techniques just to try out what sounds better (at least to my eyes)

1.)How can you make a recording with this many microphones without phase problems? For example, when i use one of this 'side bell' mics additional to my
M/S Setup?

2.) Does it make sense to use stereo miking techniques when i for example record four parts from a piece an add a timpani or is a mono recording a wiser choice(less work...)?

3.) Wich mic setups would you suggest to achieve good results(especially just solo trumpet)?

My tiny mic locker consists of
2 AKG c414 XLii
2 AKG c480 (just the cardioid capsules)
My new/old MD 441N

For recording i use
ASP 880---Fireface 802---Logic
Thx
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't think anyone is using ten microphones on a solo trumpet in an actual mix. In the end, they will pick one or two and use those, plus perhaps an ambience pair. What is your opinion of the mics you already own for this use?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by david89 ➡️
(...)
1.)How can you make a recording with this many microphones without phase problems? For example, when i use one of this 'side bell' mics additional to my
M/S Setup?

2.) Does it make sense to use stereo miking techniques when i for example record four parts from a piece an add a timpani or is a mono recording a wiser choice(less work...)?

3.) Wich mic setups would you suggest to achieve good results(especially just solo trumpet)?

My tiny mic locker consists of
2 AKG c414 XLii
2 AKG c480 (just the cardioid capsules)
My new/old MD 441N

For recording i use ASP 880---Fireface 802---Logic
you've got decent gear which allows you to get excellent results.

1) time/phase alignment - and yes: i doubt all signals will get used from a setup of 10 mics!
2) i prefer using directional mono 'spot' mics on instruments which are physically relatively small, especially when stacking tracks, but almost alway add stereo ambient mics.
3) with your mics, i'd probably use the sennheiser at short distance, a single ck61/c480b at ca. 1m and use the c414's (in wide cardioid or omni) at some distance in wide a/b...
...but using just a single pair of c414 in m/s could also do the trick - the larger setup allows for more sound options though.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 09:19 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Here for the gear
 
Thank you both for the quick replies to my questions!

I'm pretty happy with my microphones so far. I got the 2 C414 for around 500 each from a guy who worked for AKG (i live in Austria).
When i recorded with both of them, they captured a lot of unwanted noise from the trumpet at even around 2-3 meters distance (for other purposes they are just fine). I tried different angles but this "airiness" still was in the signal. when i placed the mic behind the bell, i had better results with it. Further away they sound excellent. The c480b captured less noise but i wanted to give the md 441 a try. I use it now as Mid signal in flat position and it sounds way more like i hear myself. With the high boost activated the unwanted noise of the trumpet starts to appear again.

@ deedeeyeah : I will try your suggestion with the wide A/B and the c480 at around 1m.
When recording, it's nearly impossible to hear my signal good during playing (there is way more sound coming from my jaw/scull than from my headphones), so i have to record myself every time and listen to it afterwards.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by david89 ➡️
I will try your suggestion with the wide A/B and the c480 at around 1m.
this is not what i suggested but of course you may try such a setup :-)

[i was suggesting to use a single/mono ck61/c480b at ca. 1m (due to my preference for mono spot mics) and to use a pair of spaced c414's at some distance (due to my preference for non-correlated ambient sound)]

Quote:
When recording, it's nearly impossible to hear my signal good during playing (there is way more sound coming from my jaw/scull than from my headphones), so i have to record myself every time and listen to it afterwards.
no doubt about it (and i guess in-ears won't change that and problematic for a variety of reasons?)...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 
David Rick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The reason I asked about your current mics is that I once had a conductor go gaga over the sound when I put up a spaced pair of C460/CK61's on a trumpet section. I was, frankly, rather surprised: I used them simply because they were the last thing left in my kit that had switchable pads. Anyway they worked, but I wouldn't expect them to work always. They were boomed in from two rows in front, to keep the stands off the risers and the players were on a wide stage at the front of a hall seating maybe 600 people.

That's a far cry from recording something in your studio, where you'll be at closer range and won't have giant space to shape the reverberance. Have you ever tried a ribbon mic? For inspiration, here's a Royer Labs video featuring lots of famous trumpet players and the late, great Michael Bishop.

Recording Trumpet with Engineer Michael Bishop

David
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Yes. Ribbons are the way to go for trumpet.

Steve
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
...if you're into a mic with a pattern which is only useful in the most rare situations, which doesn't take massive airblasts from close position very well, which needs massive amounts of gain from the preamp if used at some distance, which has limited frequency range which additionally is far from flat, which mostly needs massive tweaking via eq etc., THEN use a ribbon mic! - i'd much rather add a clip mic (for freedom of movement, clean visuals for videos, its benefits in live sound etc.)

[the beyer m160/m130 m/s pair does better than most other ribbons and due to its typical yet less limited frequency range, it can mimick the effect of larger distance even if positioned say at ca. 3m; in terms of correlation, m/s is at the other end of the spectrum compared to wide a/b though]


p.s. speaking of ribbon mics: pls no one gets me started on blumlein...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 2 weeks ago at 10:36 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
Here for the gear
 
I tried a ribbon mic a year ago when i was testing my new mic preamp.
It was a sE Electronics VR1.
At first i was happy with the sound but i on studio monitors it sounds a little boring (i miss "sparkling") when i hear this video now. This mic seems to be quite bright for a ribbon mic so i thought it's not a wise choice to buy something even darker(thats why i bought the md 441). Pm. me if somebody wants the youtube link to it.

@ David Rick : Thank you for the Link. The event was great but this video seems to me a little like an advertisement for Royer. Of course the sound is "nice" but also very "tamed". A trumpet sounds very different played with high volume than that when you are next to it.^^

For non classical music it may be a good choice but i have never seen a ribbon mic in front of me when i get recorded by somebody else (a horn player next to me had one recently). When i get recorded by other guys (TV/Radio/CD) it seems to me that they just give me something they don't need somewhere else because they don't use the spot signal for the whole mix often but i have never asked (I had one km184/89/87/Brauner/Gefell/several different 414 models and others in front of me so its quite random).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I have used an AEA R84 on trumpet many times. It’s a good mic for trumpet however ribbons don’t have the high end power of condensers. 414s should be all you need unless you want a room mic too.
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