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How have you "burlized" your ADC process?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
How have you "burlized" your ADC process?

Been very interested in the whole "colored" ADC game lately and wondering what you guys are doing with your signal if you're too cheap or stubborn to get on the Burl or Dangerous train!

All "you could never notice the difference in a mix" posters will be forced to mix a death metal album at 192hz in Protools on hacked beta versions!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
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🎧 10 years
Without paying for Burl, you put something with large transformers before the converter.

I will be trying both in a few weeks. In process of re-wire. Will be trying a pair of ZOD DI into Burl.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Once upon a time everybody was obsessed with converter accuracy .. now that accurate converters are cheap all the expensive stuff is deliberately inaccurate (admittedly nice sounding) converters (and supporting analogue circuitry). I find this very amusing.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #4
Gear Nut
 
1zerozerozero1's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambiguous signal ➡️
Once upon a time everybody was obsessed with converter accuracy .. now that accurate converters are cheap all the expensive stuff is deliberately inaccurate (admittedly nice sounding) converters (and supporting analogue circuitry). I find this very amusing.
Nonsense! Taking Prism Sound as a (good) example -

A) Compare "cheap stuff" to Prism stuff before saying the cheap stuff is accurate. Hint: in comparison it's nowhere close. Listen particularly to transient response.

B) Listen to Prism stuff before claiming "all the expensive stuff is deliberately inaccurate". There are plenty of other examples too. I get your point about Burl, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

As aside, like the OP, I don't understand people who don't think there's much between converters, especially when comparing the midrange gear with the top-tier stuff. I hate to say it, but if you can't hear it you need to look at your monitoring and your room and eventually, erm, your ears/judgement!

I also feel if what I feel is actually a large difference with high end converters was taken more seriously by more pros, some of the sonically woeful stuff in the charts wouldn't sound half as bad...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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I’ve just bought a Prism Atlas, and whilst it’s quite transparent, it does have some colour to it. Something going on in the high mids (that sounds great to my ears).

I’m using it to pitch and print my hybrid mix setup. It treats the ear candy frequencies of a mix very nicely. I also bought a Fusion, which has a nice sounding transformer that can be engaged, and reminds me of what a Burl B2 can add to a mix, but maybe less weighty.

Every time I hear the B2 I like what it does. If it wasn’t so back ordered I would have probably bought a B2 instead of the Atlas. But with the Fusion transformer I feel I can get in the ballpark.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambiguous signal ➡️
Once upon a time everybody was obsessed with converter accuracy .. now that accurate converters are cheap all the expensive stuff is deliberately inaccurate (admittedly nice sounding) converters (and supporting analogue circuitry). I find this very amusing.
We still are. But I'm curious what's between the converters in terms of adding warmth.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 ➡️
I’ve just bought a Prism Atlas, and whilst it’s quite transparent, it does have some colour to it. Something going on in the high mids (that sounds great to my ears).

I’m using it to pitch and print my hybrid mix setup. It treats the ear candy frequencies of a mix very nicely. I also bought a Fusion, which has a nice sounding transformer that can be engaged, and reminds me of what a Burl B2 can add to a mix, but maybe less weighty.

Every time I hear the B2 I like what it does. If it wasn’t so back ordered I would have probably bought a B2 instead of the Atlas. But with the Fusion transformer I feel I can get in the ballpark.
I'm looking for an SSL Fusion from Harbor Freight
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Gear Nut
 
TEEspresso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Some suggestions perhaps:

Kludge Audio Transwarmers.
DIYRE Colour Modules and Colour 500-Series Palette mkII.
Warm Audio WA273.
Warm WA-412 with Red Dots.
Zod ID DI pair.
Overstayer MAS.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Nut
 
TEEspresso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Also, with regards to "Accurate Converters:"

Accurate converters are still highly desired. The Burl converters are among the most accurate. They are regularly compared to JCF Audio, Merging, Prism Sound, Digital Audio Denmark, Sonosax and other top ADCs.

The apparently not obvious difference between inaccurate converters and accurate converters with added coloration is that inaccurate converters often sound bad because of displeasing colorations and inaccuracies and accurate converters with circuits that are euphonic sound accurately euphonic.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Converter? I burly even knew her!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
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I’m curious: what’s a “bad converter” in 2021?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
I’m curious: what’s a “bad converter” in 2021?
Digidesign, Steniberg, focusrite, behringer, rme on and on
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
Digidesign, Steniberg, focusrite, behringer, rme on and on
And how are these “bad”?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
And how are these “bad”?
mostly has to do with jitter and lousy analog front ends
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
variation, not colouration

i do vary a/d converters (on up to 24 channels) occasonally to get some variation but none of them behaves in such a drastic way as the burl...

[in fact, i wouldn't use them if they would behave in a similar way and i gladly admit that i'm not getting the point of why to use converters which shape the sound massively: imo they are supposed to stay out of the way and even though they became good at it, i still avoid converting signals more than once!]

the three different brands of converters i'm using all convert to madi and are from studer, euphonix and rme - enough variation for me! - now get me those metal tracks (no pro fools here and i'm not mixing itb either)...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4 weeks ago at 10:35 AM.. Reason: change of sound
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
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esldude's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
mostly has to do with jitter and lousy analog front ends
I'd say none of your conjectures have any support in the real world.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude ➡️
I'd say none of your conjectures have any support in the real world.
Wasn't/isn't there a giant thread around here where guys got creamed in A/B tests and null tests with lowly USB interfaces and high-end stuff?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
Wasn't/isn't there a giant thread around here where guys got creamed in A/B tests and null tests with lowly USB interfaces and high-end stuff?
The giant thread compares loop backs of DA to AD. It is intended to measure the most transparent conversion of both line outs and line in conversion.

What you will observe there based on the results is; the Lynx Hilo and n range, and Apogee MK2 SE units have sat at the top for a couple of years (now seemingly bettered by a Eventide H8000FW and H9000R), and then below that sat some Marging, Metric Halo and Antelope boxes, followed by a few Motu's. The Prism Lyra sits behind the Motu's and a few others.

So for the boxes that tout themselves as transparent and the highest quality, that seems about right (I don't know anything about the Eventide boxes though). The standouts are the Motu boxes, some RME's and an Audient box. The potential under-performers are; the Lyra and nearly all UAD Apollo boxes not ranking as high as you might expect, based on claims or specs.

But all that said and done, all of those results don't necessarily translate into the "best" sounding boxes. For example, whilst the Hilo will beat the Lyra on specs, and on pure transparency (and does sound great in loopback tests I've heard), many still prefer the presentation and the tone of the Lyra (both DAC and ADC) as being more "musical". Whereas the Hilo may be better from a pure Mastering perspective. So its horses for courses.

I think the key takeaway for these types of comparisons is that, when would you trust science and specs over your ears when it comes to something to do with music, music production or musical equipment?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude ➡️
I'd say none of your conjectures have any support in the real world.
They are not conjectures, your comment is conjuncture. Jitter is measurable and it is a know issue with all those converters. It is well documented. As far as the sound of the front end, that is not conjecture those units use really cheap SMT opamps which do not sound good. Most of all those units have really noisy power supplies and that degrades audio performance as well as increases jitter. I think if you did any actual research you wouldn't have accuse others of "conjecture". Also many of those units have very high latency compared to professional high end units. That is also well documented if you do the research. At the end of the day is comes down to 3 converter categories: consumer prosumer and professional. Avoid the first 2.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 ➡️
The giant thread compares loop backs of DA to AD. It is intended to measure the most transparent conversion of both line outs and line in conversion.

What you will observe there based on the results is; the Lynx Hilo and n range, and Apogee MK2 SE units have sat at the top for a couple of years (now seemingly bettered by a Eventide H8000FW and H9000R), and then below that sat some Marging, Metric Halo and Antelope boxes, followed by a few Motu's. The Prism Lyra sits behind the Motu's and a few others.

So for the boxes that tout themselves as transparent and the highest quality, that seems about right (I don't know anything about the Eventide boxes though). The standouts are the Motu boxes, some RME's and an Audient box. The potential under-performers are; the Lyra and nearly all UAD Apollo boxes not ranking as high as you might expect, based on claims or specs.

But all that said and done, all of those results don't necessarily translate into the "best" sounding boxes. For example, whilst the Hilo will beat the Lyra on specs, and on pure transparency (and does sound great in loopback tests I've heard), many still prefer the presentation and the tone of the Lyra (both DAC and ADC) as being more "musical". Whereas the Hilo may be better from a pure Mastering perspective. So its horses for courses.

I think the key takeaway for these types of comparisons is that, when would you trust science and specs over your ears when it comes to something to do with music, music production or musical equipment?
I agree.

I just think that tossing around "bad" in the context of converters (interfaces) in 2021 contributes more to the toxicity of this site than anything constructive.

If you're new and reading this, please close this tab immediately: you're just going to waste precious time you could've spent learning how to use your perfectly-adequate Behringer interface.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
They are not conjectures, your comment is conjuncture. Jitter is measurable and it is a know issue with all those converters. It is well documented. As far as the sound of the front end, that is not conjecture those units use really cheap SMT opamps which do not sound good. Most of all those units have really noisy power supplies and that degrades audio performance as well as increases jitter. I think if you did any actual research you wouldn't have accuse others of "conjecture". Also many of those units have very high latency compared to professional high end units. That is also well documented if you do the research. At the end of the day is comes down to 3 converter categories: consumer prosumer and professional. Avoid the first 2.
Would be interested to hear about who you think has a good analog path. This is the area I'm giving a lot of thought to. I get the impression that Eventide knows their **** in this department big time.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
I agree.

I just think that tossing around "bad" in the context of converters (interfaces) in 2021 contributes more to the toxicity of this site than anything constructive.

If you're new and reading this, please close this tab immediately: you're just going to waste precious time you could've spent learning how to use your perfectly-adequate Behringer interface.
He's not wrong though. There are a lot of new interfaces performing worse than a Motu interfaces from the PCI era. And on the behringer AD8000, it is the worst performing even if you try to handicap it with dB(A). It is legitimately a bad ADC and it is actually prudent to discourage people from using it when many options equally as cheap exist that perform very well.

It's important to let people seperate out marketing vs results and to calibrate what exactly they want or need without beeing bamboozled.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickerz ➡️
He's not wrong though. There are a lot of new interfaces performing worse than a Motu interfaces from the PCI era. And on the behringer AD8000, it is the worst performing even if you try to handicap it with dB(A). It is legitimately a bad ADC and it is actually prudent to discourage people from using it when many options equally as cheap exist that perform very well.

It's important to let people seperate out marketing vs results and to calibrate what exactly they want or need without beeing bamboozled.
Let's just say we have differing opinions on "bad" and "performance" in the converter/interface world and call it a day.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickerz ➡️
Would be interested to hear about who you think has a good analog path. This is the area I'm giving a lot of thought to. I get the impression that Eventide knows their **** in this department big time.
Eventide makes recording interfaces?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
Eventide makes recording interfaces?
lol - no, luckily, they are still into efx devices!

the h8000 has been around for ca. 15 years - could well be the converters stem from the orville; if so, add ca. another 5 years - both got discontinued/replaced by the much more powerful h9000 (which you better hook up via madi or dante anyhow...)

___


i find loop back test completely useless as there's no way to tell how the results will get perceived in a musical context and with high channel count...

[personally, i MUCH prefer some older adda converters from studer, euphonix, jünger, drawmer tc and weiss over some of the never alledged hi-performers (say from merging)]
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
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esldude's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
They are not conjectures, your comment is conjuncture. Jitter is measurable and it is a know issue with all those converters. It is well documented. As far as the sound of the front end, that is not conjecture those units use really cheap SMT opamps which do not sound good. Most of all those units have really noisy power supplies and that degrades audio performance as well as increases jitter. I think if you did any actual research you wouldn't have accuse others of "conjecture". Also many of those units have very high latency compared to professional high end units. That is also well documented if you do the research. At the end of the day is comes down to 3 converter categories: consumer prosumer and professional. Avoid the first 2.
Well if you have the test data on jitter give it up. I've seen measures of those you accuse of having bad jitter joo joo and they don't.

Same for the noisy power supplies. Funny how they don't measure noisy.

Last edited by esldude; 4 weeks ago at 09:19 AM.. Reason: added info
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
With all the talk about good/accurate converters and bad/inaccurate converters...no has mentioned the Antelope stuff....where does it fall?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #28
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miroslav ➡️
With all the talk about good/accurate converters and bad/inaccurate converters...no has mentioned the Antelope stuff....where does it fall?
It falls under Perfectly Adequate to Accomplish Whatever Musical Goals you Have, as does every other interface the negative creeps have been slighting on here.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #29
Xnr
Gear Maniac
 
Xnr's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
I just think that tossing around "bad" in the context of converters (interfaces) in 2021 contributes more to the toxicity of this site than anything constructive.

If you're new and reading this, please close this tab immediately: you're just going to waste precious time you could've spent learning how to use your perfectly-adequate Behringer interface.
Exactly this. If you are new and you are thinking it's the gear that's holding you back, trust me, you are wrong. When you finally buy that high-end converter you realize that it doesn't miraculously boost your skill. Your music still sounds the same and you are left angry at yourself for believing in a magic pill, angry at the people who (directly or indirectly) convinced you to buy it. When actually what you should be doing is keep on practicing on whatever equipment you currently have. Make mistakes, get frustrated, sometimes get it right, see yourself evolve. When the time comes you WILL KNOW when you have outgrown your gear.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
...except that their drivers are crap and you can be lucky if you get an antelope interface going at all!

dunno about their standalone converters...
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