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How have you "burlized" your ADC process?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xnr ➡️
Exactly this. If you are new and you are thinking it's the gear that's holding you back, trust me, you are wrong. When you finally buy that high-end converter you realize that it doesn't miraculously boost your skill. Your music still sounds the same and you are left angry at yourself for believing in a magic pill, angry at the people who (directly or indirectly) convinced you to buy it. When actually what you should be doing is keep on practicing on whatever equipment you currently have. Make mistakes, get frustrated, sometimes get it right, see yourself evolve. When the time comes you WILL KNOW when you have outgrown your gear.
And your anger will manifest on Gearspace slighting everyone's perfectly fine converters to make you feel better about your high-end gear purchases.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude ➡️
Well if you have the test data on jitter give it up. I've seen measures of those you accuse of having bad jitter joo joo and they don't.
YOU can just get all the converters and measure their jitter or look at their specs sheets. However amounts of jitter can be good since if controlled in a certain way it can actually smear the image in a ear pleasing way. Of course this is all subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude ➡️
Same for the noisy power supplies. Funny how they don't measure noisy.
Noisy power supplies cause lots of issues with any digital equipment or any audio equipment of that matter. Go to digi key and look up how much good power supplies cost. They cost more than most prosumer interfaces. What does that tell you? And yes cheap noisy power supplies cause all kinds of problems with interference and with any digital unit, they can mess with the clock and subsequently jitter specs. So how can MAudio or Beheriner make a good interface for $200 when a good powersupply coats about that much? A Burl costs $2500 for 2 channels yet digi design has figured out how to get you 24 channels for only a couple hundred more. Wow that's a miraculous achievement. Bottom line is nothing is for free and you get what you pay for in audio.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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thismercifulfate's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
All this talk about Digidesign, which has not existed for a decade now.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
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EBDA1176's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Don't wanna get into converter defense here but I can say on my Prism converters with an SSL Fusion / SSL Bus comp on the outs - and a Rupert Neve Portico II channel on the in (tracking) that it definitely made a positive sonic impact both for initial tracking, printing tracks and final mix (and even monitoring and clarity/depth of sound) when I got the Prism a few years back vs the "lower-mid range" firewire converters (that often got touted as very good for their price even AGAINST old prism stuff like the orpheous) I had previous to the Prism unit.

It's hard to just rely on science here, though specs should count, as should user reviews and word of mouth, however everything is relative and those who've only ever used lower end converters (that do still sound good these days) won't know about all the small ways better converters help you on a real world, day to day basis, even if just for listening and mixing let alone any trips out to analog and back. I think at the higher end things get a bit more pendatic, they are all great with different flavours (I prefer 'musical' results over total accuracy as it helps me mix/track and works with me not against me) but they still have to be relatively 'clean' and 'accurate'. A lower end box is often doing stuff you may end up fighting against later down the chain. It won't stop you getting a good song done though, it's up to the user what that peace of mind is worth, many people 'doubt' their converters for years (if for example they just can't mix that well yet) but if you can rule that out by stepping up to at least the lower end of 'high end' which isn't TOO expensive, then you can focus on other things inc your skills. That is often why these high end, respected boxes (be they converters or other analog hardware) are worth it... even if just to calibrate your ears to while you are learning.

20? years ago the first interface I had - a 24/96 sub $300 cheapo thing that was very popular at the time (PCIE card) WAS actively holding me back, it was fighting me... so I guess if you're just dabbling with audio anything will do but if you see it as a long term thing it's best to get your chain sorted asap for confidence in the other gear and steps along the way.

FWiW I did compare my Prism to the antelope and Lynx Hilo and - specs aside - I felt 'better' working with and mixing/tracking with the Prism, maybe it's about tastes too. Prism is a great middle ground between musical/mojo and clean/clinical - not too much of either which, for me, is perfect.. .other's needs may differ!

To answer the original post... not sure you can burlize a non burl, but for sure some kinda transformer on the way in and the way out is going to at least lessen the impact of the difference between a converter with a trafo and one without. Personally I prefer to leave my transformers to the analog boxes that have bespoke/variety - in my case Rupert Neve Design (+2 silk options) and SSL Fusion's one.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
...except that their drivers are crap and you can be lucky if you get an antelope interface going at all!

dunno about their standalone converters...
I'm just interested in basic/pure converters...I don't know about their interfaces, and I never really look at interfaces no matter the brand, because I don't need that type of combination box.

For me...the drivers would be an important thing, and why the thought of switching to some different converters has always held me back.
I just don't want to go through some DAW/converter reconfiguration hell...and then wonder how much of an improvement I'm really hearing after going through that hell.

Still, I would be like to move to something a bit more current at some point...something that feels like an upgrade.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #36
Gear Nut
 
TEEspresso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The OP of this thread asked about getting the Burl sound with his existing converters, without paying Burl prices. I perhaps contributed to the confusion by pointing out that Burl converters are not inaccurate, they are designed to accurately convert their euphonic custom transformer sound.

However, converters are not the subject. I expect the OP already has one of the many converters that are accurate in 2021, he was curious what to put in front of his accutate converters to get close to the Burl sound but at a lower price.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #37
Xnr
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Xnr's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
And yes cheap noisy power supplies cause all kinds of problems with interference and with digital units it can mess with the clock and subsequently jitter specs.
And yet it does not stand in the way between you and making good music. Unless you are a gear manufacturer and you are looking for a high-precision tool for your R&D team, there is very little reason to overpay for that fraction of a percent spec improvement. I bet the end user would not even tell the difference between a mix produced on pro-level gear vs prosumer level.

I have a friend who's passionate about home growing vegetables. He has this complicated setup that maintains the right amount of light, temperature, humidity, measures acidity and god knows what else. I can imagine my friend's dream is to own a small genetic lab so he can design a perfect gene sequence for a perfect tomato. But the truth is, I would eat that tomato even if it came from a simple pot. Because it's not about perfection, it's knowing that it took time and effort. Far too many people on this forum are obsessed with building a genetic lab for their homegrown tomatoes..
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #38
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
YOU can just get all the converters and measure their jitter or look at their specs sheets. However amounts of jitter can be good since if controlled in a certain way it can actually smear the image in a ear pleasing way. Of course this is all subjective.


Noisy power supplies cause lots of issues with any digital equipment or any audio equipment of that matter. Go to digi key and look up how much good power supplies cost. They cost more than most prosumer interfaces. What does that tell you? And yes cheap noisy power supplies cause all kinds of problems with interference and with any digital unit, they can mess with the clock and subsequently jitter specs. So how can MAudio or Beheriner make a good interface for $200 when a good powersupply coats about that much? A Burl costs $2500 for 2 channels yet digi design has figured out how to get you 24 channels for only a couple hundred more. Wow that's a miraculous achievement. Bottom line is nothing is for free and you get what you pay for in audio.
Economies of scale comes to mind.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #39
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EBDA1176 ➡️
Don't wanna get into converter defense here but I can say on my Prism converters with an SSL Fusion / SSL Bus comp on the outs - and a Rupert Neve Portico II channel on the in (tracking) that it definitely made a positive sonic impact both for initial tracking, printing tracks and final mix (and even monitoring and clarity/depth of sound) when I got the Prism a few years back vs the "lower-mid range" firewire converters (that often got touted as very good for their price even AGAINST old prism stuff like the orpheous) I had previous to the Prism unit.

It's hard to just rely on science here, though specs should count, as should user reviews and word of mouth, however everything is relative and those who've only ever used lower end converters (that do still sound good these days) won't know about all the small ways better converters help you on a real world, day to day basis, even if just for listening and mixing let alone any trips out to analog and back. I think at the higher end things get a bit more pendatic, they are all great with different flavours (I prefer 'musical' results over total accuracy as it helps me mix/track and works with me not against me) but they still have to be relatively 'clean' and 'accurate'. A lower end box is often doing stuff you may end up fighting against later down the chain. It won't stop you getting a good song done though, it's up to the user what that peace of mind is worth, many people 'doubt' their converters for years (if for example they just can't mix that well yet) but if you can rule that out by stepping up to at least the lower end of 'high end' which isn't TOO expensive, then you can focus on other things inc your skills. That is often why these high end, respected boxes (be they converters or other analog hardware) are worth it... even if just to calibrate your ears to while you are learning.

20? years ago the first interface I had - a 24/96 sub $300 cheapo thing that was very popular at the time (PCIE card) WAS actively holding me back, it was fighting me... so I guess if you're just dabbling with audio anything will do but if you see it as a long term thing it's best to get your chain sorted asap for confidence in the other gear and steps along the way.

FWiW I did compare my Prism to the antelope and Lynx Hilo and - specs aside - I felt 'better' working with and mixing/tracking with the Prism, maybe it's about tastes too. Prism is a great middle ground between musical/mojo and clean/clinical - not too much of either which, for me, is perfect.. .other's needs may differ!

To answer the original post... not sure you can burlize a non burl, but for sure some kinda transformer on the way in and the way out is going to at least lessen the impact of the difference between a converter with a trafo and one without. Personally I prefer to leave my transformers to the analog boxes that have bespoke/variety - in my case Rupert Neve Design (+2 silk options) and SSL Fusion's one.
Couple of things:

Your skill level improvements have been in lock-step with your gear upgrades, like most of us on here. It's hard to separate that, and other things, that are all part of this complex ecosystem of tools, decisions, and processes.

I'm not saying that Burl converters wouldn't sound arguably better than a lowly USB interface in 2021, but I have a hard time calling the latter "bad", like you couldn't possibly record a hit record on one, because the jitter would shake all the bits off the waveforms... when lots of hits were recorded on 4-track cassette, or DA-88s, or ADAT, or any other inferior medium/format that preceded the Burls and Prisms of today.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xnr ➡️
And yet it does not stand in the way between you and making good music.
this comment would mean something on a songwriting thread but here is is just a straw-man and classic diversion
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miroslav ➡️
I'm just interested in basic/pure converters (...)
Still, I would be like to move to something a bit more current at some point...something that feels like an upgrade.
how many i/o's, in what format (analog, aes, madi, dante etc.), what budget?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
how many i/o's, in what format (analog, aes, madi, dante etc.), what budget?
32 analog to digital, and digital to analog I/O's would be my main concern, since I still track to 2"...and I also mix back out of the DAW through a console.

The one that kinda caught my eye, and at just under $3k USD, would certainly be withing my budget...was the Antelope Orion 32+Gen3 (which is why I asked about it earlier). It seemed like an easy way to replace my (4) 8-channel A/D/A converters...save on the rack space, quickly/simply utilizet my current 32-channel snakes going to my converters to work with the D-sub connections of the Orion.

I'm not looking for super-high end sample rates...would happily work at 48kHz, but it would but it would be nice to have the much higher rates as ready options.

I don't need any kind of mic pres or DI stuff...just pure conversion.

I could definitely raise my budget a little higher...but not looking to sink $10k+ into anything.
Of course, along with something like the Orion, I would also want to upgrade my PC so I could have the full benefit and the fastest transfer options of the Thunderbolt format.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #43
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miroslav ➡️
32 analog to digital, and digital to analog I/O's would be my main concern, since I still track to 2"...and I also mix back out of the DAW through a console.

The one that kinda caught my eye, and at just under $3k USD, would certainly be withing my budget...was the Antelope Orion 32+Gen3 (which is why I asked about it earlier). It seemed like an easy way to replace my (4) 8-channel A/D/A converters...save on the rack space, quickly/simply utilizet my current 32-channel snakes going to my converters to work with the D-sub connections of the Orion.

I'm not looking for super-high end sample rates...would happily work at 48kHz, but it would but it would be nice to have the much higher rates as ready options.

I don't need any kind of mic pres or DI stuff...just pure conversion.

I could definitely raise my budget a little higher...but not looking to sink $10k+ into anything.
Of course, along with something like the Orion, I would also want to upgrade my PC so I could have the full benefit and the fastest transfer options of the Thunderbolt format.
I'm not sure if they've resolved their driver issues, but the earlier gen Orions were problematic; lots of complaints online if you Google it.

Now, RME drivers, rock-solid. Too bad they're so "bad", or so I've been told on here.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by miroslav ➡️
32 analog to digital, and digital to analog I/O's would be my main concern, since I still track to 2"...and I also mix back out of the DAW through a console.

The one that kinda caught my eye, and at just under $3k USD, would certainly be withing my budget...was the Antelope Orion 32+Gen3 (which is why I asked about it earlier). It seemed like an easy way to replace my (4) 8-channel A/D/A converters...save on the rack space, quickly/simply utilizet my current 32-channel snakes going to my converters to work with the D-sub connections of the Orion.

I'm not looking for super-high end sample rates...would happily work at 48kHz, but it would but it would be nice to have the much higher rates as ready options.

I don't need any kind of mic pres or DI stuff...just pure conversion.

I could definitely raise my budget a little higher...but not looking to sink $10k+ into anything.
Of course, along with something like the Orion, I would also want to upgrade my PC so I could have the full benefit and the fastest transfer options of the Thunderbolt format.
I've had the Orion 32+ for a while now and I love it. I haven't had any issued with the drivers (OSX) although I've heard the complaints a lot.
I think it sounds good and the routing flexibility is fantastic.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
Lives for gear
 
IanBSC's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I'm still digging the Burl converters, at least for tracking. I think that for tracking and mixing, the transformered ADCs are too much, but one or the other and they sound great. I learned to leave a lot more headroom with them to get a clearer sound.

Probably the closest way to emulate a Burl would be a Cinemag, Jensen or Ludahal transformer right before your ADC. When I first heard a Mothership it reminded me as if the slight color of my John Hardy M1 preamp had been applied to every input channel.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #46
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
They are not conjectures, your comment is conjuncture. Jitter is measurable and it is a know issue with all those converters. It is well documented. As far as the sound of the front end, that is not conjecture those units use really cheap SMT opamps which do not sound good. Most of all those units have really noisy power supplies and that degrades audio performance as well as increases jitter.
RME analog stages are just clean, maybe too clean for some applications and ears. After all what a Burl does is to add noise to the signal. Musical noise to some ears, applicable in some genres but certainly not desirable under all circumstances.

But more importantly: jitter & noisy power supplies in RME converters? I'd love to see some evidence corroborating this!
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #47
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miroslav ➡️
32 analog to digital, and digital to analog I/O's would be my main concern, since I still track to 2"...and I also mix back out of the DAW through a console.

The one that kinda caught my eye, and at just under $3k USD, would certainly be withing my budget...was the Antelope Orion 32+Gen3 (which is why I asked about it earlier). It seemed like an easy way to replace my (4) 8-channel A/D/A converters...save on the rack space, quickly/simply utilizet my current 32-channel snakes going to my converters to work with the D-sub connections of the Orion.

I'm not looking for super-high end sample rates...would happily work at 48kHz, but it would but it would be nice to have the much higher rates as ready options.

I don't need any kind of mic pres or DI stuff...just pure conversion.

I could definitely raise my budget a little higher...but not looking to sink $10k+ into anything.
Of course, along with something like the Orion, I would also want to upgrade my PC so I could have the full benefit and the fastest transfer options of the Thunderbolt format.
my approach has been to use the best of both worlds, meaning to use a rme interface and converters of choice so i went with a

rme madiface xt

(which has enough i/o's more most any project i can imagine and the proven realiability and long-time support of drivers, regardless of platform) and i've been adding

studer, euphonix and rme converteres

between which i can choose (yes, i'm occasionally using different converters for a subtle change of 'colour') - that said, imo rme's madi-converters are excellent and can be found within your price range; another contender is directout technologies: check out their andiamo 32 channel adda-madi converters which i think are reasonably priced and perform very well too; small footprint doesn't hurt either...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #48
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️
my approach has been to use the best of both worlds, meaning to use a rme interface and converters of choice so i went with a

rme madiface xt

(which has enough i/o's more most any project i can imagine and the proven realiability and long-time support of drivers, regardless of platform) and i've been adding

studer, euphonix and rme converteres

between which i can choose (yes, i'm occasionally using different converters for a subtle change of 'colour') - that said, imo rme's madi-converters are excellent and can be found within your price range; another contender is directout technologies: check out their andiamo 32 channel adda-madi converters which i think are reasonably priced and perform very well too; small footprint doesn't hurt either...
How do you manage with all that jitter and noise?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #49
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
this comment would mean something on a songwriting thread but here is is just a straw-man and classic diversion
Speaking of which, where are those jitter stats? Or did I miss them over the din of my noisy power supply?
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #50
Gear Nut
 
TEEspresso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanBSC ➡️
Probably the closest way to emulate a Burl would be a Cinemag, Jensen or Ludahal transformer right before your ADC.

There are number of 1, 2, and 8 channel transformer splitters / isolators availlable with those brands of transformers if one does not want to build it. Try to get the ones with the more than +20 dBU input rating so you can drive it hard but not oversaturate it.

A pair of the Burl B1 pres will give you their sound on tracking, 2 buss or master buss.

Also there are many devices that have excellent transformers with fantastic boxtone that can be inserted but with no adjustments. For example a pultec style eq with no eq applied or a vari-mu compressor with no compression applied. Drive the input transformers and/or use the makeup gain and/or output trim to push the output transformers too.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #51
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
How do you manage with all that jitter and noise?


did you ever get to use a large madi-based setup and the specific gear i mentioned, measured it and compared it against other gear?!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #52
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah ➡️


did you ever get to use a large madi-based setup and the specific gear i mentioned, measured it and compared it against other gear?!
You know I'm being facetious right? Scroll up, there is a dude on here saying RME converters are "bad" because of jitter and PSU noise, but can't seem to back it up at all.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #53
Gear Maniac
 
Sabovic Adis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
You know I'm being facetious right? Scroll up, there is a dude on here saying RME converters are "bad" because of jitter and PSU noise, but can't seem to back it up at all.
Give him this!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #54
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
You know I'm being facetious right? Scroll up, there is a dude on here saying RME converters are "bad" because of jitter and PSU noise, but can't seem to back it up at all.
sorry, i didn't get the fun... (non-native english speaking)
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #55
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
Speaking of which, where are those jitter stats? Or did I miss them over the din of my noisy power supply?
Jitter stats for what device? you can just look at the spec sheet, you don't need me to provide it
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #57
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gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
Jitter stats for what device? you can just look at the spec sheet, you don't need me to provide it
I'm good thanks, bit busy making music on my "bad" converters today. I did have to re-track a bass part: the jitter shook the DI off the table and the patch cord came out.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #58
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
I'm good thanks, bit busy making music on my "bad" converters today. I did have to re-track a bass part: the jitter shook the DI off the table and the patch cord came out.
I think you are taking this way too personally
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
gravyface's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeraz ➡️
I think you are taking this way too personally
I’m having fun with it to be honest.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #60
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gravyface ➡️
I’m having fun with it to be honest.
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