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Logic behind tube vs regular mic sound difference?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #571
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Much of the gate and measurement is in 2 dimensions while it is 'acting' in 3d while there is more IMHO than that!
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  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
How many dimensions to an audio signal carried by wire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboJets ➡️
Electrons are 3 dimensional.
Talking about signal. No need to get into a quantum quandary about elemental particles.

As I suspect we all know, an audio signal exists in two dimensions of measurement: electromotive force (voltage) across time. That's it.
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  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
Talking about signal. No need to get into a quantum quandary about elemental particles.

As I suspect we all know, an audio signal exists in two dimensions of measurement: electromotive force (voltage) across time. That's it.
It is a matter of opinion - that's it IMO for now. You say the signal exists ONLY in 2 dimensions... of MEASUREMENT. But you did not say that the FORCE was actually taking place in a HIGHER dimension. The travelling of this 'force' within 3d wires really explains much of a what is called a 'tube' sound etc. This is what I said above (this is where we do not agree) do we not live in 3 dimensions? And do not the 'other dimensions AFFECT the 2 dimensions of measurement and vice verse etc. (as of all dimension affect all dimensions correct or no?) The Japanese model of the '3 dimensions of the 10 dimensions were expandable - and thus was the reason of the (their) flux-tube fluon expansion theory' is interesting and "This model may explain why we live in three large spatial dimensions" is really cool. But the it 'may' explain why we 'live' is key here. If one does NOT talk about the flaws/imperfections or measuring in 2 dimensions whereas what is happening is THREE dimensions... then my point it missed. There is nothing you said above different than me BUT except that you said there NO NEED to discuss it. I believe how this 'force' travels is extremely important. and it has a huge effect on the 'sound'. Signals travel different in silver than in copper and a zillion other conduits. Not just in speed. This IMO is where a sound CAN pick up a 'tube' sound or a non-tube sound. No biggie you and I disagree here.
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  #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave ➡️
It is a matter of opinion - that's it IMO for now. You say the signal exists ONLY in 2 dimensions... of MEASUREMENT. But you did not say that the FORCE was actually taking place in a HIGHER dimension. The travelling of this 'force' within 3d wires really explains much of a what is called a 'tube' sound etc. This is what I said above (this is where we do not agree) do we not live in 3 dimensions? And do not the 'other dimensions AFFECT the 2 dimensions of measurement and vice verse etc. (as of all dimension affect all dimensions correct or no?) The Japanese model of the '3 dimensions of the 10 dimensions were expandable - and thus was the reason of the (their) flux-tube fluon expansion theory' is interesting and "This model may explain why we live in three large spatial dimensions" is really cool. But the it 'may' explain why we 'live' is key here. If one does NOT talk about the flaws/imperfections or measuring in 2 dimensions whereas what is happening is THREE dimensions... then my point it missed. There is nothing you said above different than me BUT except that you said there NO NEED to discuss it. I believe how this 'force' travels is extremely important. and it has a huge effect on the 'sound'. Signals travel different in silver than in copper and a zillion other conduits. Not just in speed. This IMO is where a sound CAN pick up a 'tube' sound or a non-tube sound. No biggie you and I disagree here.
Where to start? Not that I really want to...

But one fundamental issue: in the classic model, we don't live in three dimensions -- we live in (at least) four dimensions: three dimensions of spatial measurement and one dimension of time measurement. (I'll leave it to the theoretical physicists to go beyond the basic four.)


The words I chose have actual, defined meanings in classical physics. The properties involved are measurable, their relationships have been understood -- and measured -- for a long, long time.

One can launch into a flight of fancy to try to describe what he imagines to be ineffable qualities in that audio-signal-over-wire that have somehow remained 'hidden' from centuries of observation and measurement -- but the classical physics describing the phenomena is well-understood, accepted, and self-consistent.


Me? I look for magic and mystery in art, in the human yearning for meaning and purpose, and in the unexplored vastness of existence.
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  #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
Where to start? Not that I really want to...

But one fundamental issue: in the classic model, we don't live in three dimensions -- we live in (at least) four dimensions: three dimensions of spatial measurement and one dimension of time measurement. (I'll leave it to the theoretical physicists to go beyond the basic four.)


The words I chose have actual, defined meanings in classical physics. The properties involved are measurable, their relationships have been understood -- and measured -- for a long, long time.

One can launch into a flight of fancy to try to describe what he imagines to be ineffable qualities in that audio-signal-over-wire that have somehow remained 'hidden' from centuries of observation and measurement -- but the classical physics describing the phenomena is well-understood, accepted, and self-consistent.


Me? I look for magic and mystery in art, in the human yearning for meaning and purpose, and in the unexplored vastness of existence.
You made my case for me. The signal does not 'live' in a 2 dimensional space ~
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave ➡️
You made my case for me. The signal does not 'live' in a 2 dimensional space ~
I'm quite curious as to what you believe these other dimensions (beside amplitude and frequency) are...


Again, I do believe in the mystery and magic of the musical experience. But I tend to think that magic and mystery is in our human response to the music, not some heretofore unrecognized physical property of audio signal. If you catch my distinction.
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  #577
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio ➡️
Which realm are facts not facts in?
Yoda’s grammar coach? Is that you?
Happy again to see you I am!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
I'm quite curious as to what you believe these other dimensions (beside amplitude and frequency) are...


Again, I do believe in the mystery and magic of the musical experience. But I tend to think that magic and mystery is in our human response to the music, not some heretofore unrecognized physical property of audio signal. If you catch my distinction.
I think there's something more to it than that. Something we can't measure at all. I can't prove it scientifically anymore than you can prove your theory, though.
I will say, if music is really only about our perception, and there's nothing more to it than that... I wouldn't want to play at all. What an incredibly meaningless endeavor that would be.
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  #579
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I should submit the last few pages of this to our students as a texbook example of God of the Gaps
Old 1 week ago
  #580
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Isn't your perception of the music, and the perception of others if relevant, their responses and your response to all those things enough?
Seems good to me ...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
I'm quite curious as to what you believe these other dimensions (beside amplitude and frequency) are...
I think what swave is envisioning is a new microphone design/capture system. As you understand, a microphone captures a sum of the multiple sound waves that exist in the 3 spatial dimensions + 1 time dimension. It sums down to 2 dimensions (amplitude and frequency). I think he is thinking of some sort of array using a lot of capsules (in multiple positions in a room) and multichannel recording. It certainly wouldn’t physically look like a microphone - more like an interestingly fitted out recording room and clever software to deal with the reflections.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins ➡️
I think there's something more to it than that. Something we can't measure at all. I can't prove it scientifically anymore than you can prove your theory, though.
I will say, if music is really only about our perception, and there's nothing more to it than that... I wouldn't want to play at all. What an incredibly meaningless endeavor that would be.
Dude, it is not my theory. It is basic physics. Audio signal in wire has two dimensions of measure, amplitude and time. What else is there? If you can't answer that question maybe you're looking for the wrong things in all the wrong places.

If one is looking for the magic in music, one should look inside oneself -- not at fluctuating current in a wire.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #583
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EDIT: I had a chance to think about this again, and I've revised what I have to say, so please see my post below this current one
Quote:
Originally Posted by haysonics ➡️
I think what swave is envisioning is a new microphone design/capture system. As you understand, a microphone captures a sum of the various waves that exist in the 3 spatial dimensions + 1 time dimension. It sums down to 2 dimensions (amplitude and frequency). I think he is thinking of some sort of array using a lot of capsules (in multiple positions in a room) and multichannel recording. It certainly wouldn’t physically look like a microphone - more like an interestingly fitted out recording room.
Well, of course, that is, indeed, something else entirely...

I think the notion of improving capture of single and multi-channel sound is a potentially fascinating topic. The topic of various multichannel and surround systems is all but open ended at this point.

But, again, it is a topic well beyond the simple, basic physics question I had posed regarding the two dimensional nature of a basic (monophonic) analog audio signal.

Last edited by theblue1; 1 week ago at 11:02 PM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman ➡️
Yoda’s grammar coach? Is that you?
Happy again to see you I am!
IIRC the "am" goes before the "I" in yoda speak: "Happy again to see you am I."

Also to get down to the nitty gritty, in re music and peeps: humans are big water bags being affected by oscillating atmospheric waves. Not terribly lyric or spiritual yet essentially all there really is IMHO
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haysonics ➡️
I think what swave is envisioning is a new microphone design/capture system. As you understand, a microphone captures a sum of the multiple sound waves that exist in the 3 spatial dimensions + 1 time dimension. It sums down to 2 dimensions (amplitude and frequency). I think he is thinking of some sort of array using a lot of capsules (in multiple positions in a room) an nod multichannel recording. It certainly wouldn’t physically look like a microphone - more like an interestingly fitted out recording room and clever software to deal with the reflections.
You know what?

I took the time to go review the post by s-wave that I was responding to -- and I think you have a point!

He was indeed talking about capture of sound in air... And it was I that introduced the reduction of topic to audio signal in wire.

So, while I stand by the simple declarations I made above in supporting my somewhat rhetorical question, I believe I have to acknowledge that it's my bad for introducing that deflection of topic away from s wave's concern with capture.

Mea culpa!
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  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64gtoboy ➡️
humans are big water bags
But the most interesting big water bags on the planet (depending of course upon how you feel about camels).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyB ➡️
Isn't your perception of the music, and the perception of others if relevant, their responses and your response to all those things enough?
Seems good to me ...
I'm glad you find meaning in it. As for me, no. I'd rather have something deeper than perception.
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  #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
Dude, it is not my theory. It is basic physics. Audio signal in wire has two dimensions of measure, amplitude and time. What else is there? If you can't answer that question maybe you're looking for the wrong things in all the wrong places.

If one is looking for the magic in music, one should look inside oneself -- not at fluctuating current in a wire.
Calm down, sir. Sounds like I may have touched your two dimensional wire.
Call me crazy, but this thread has gone well beyond talking about wire for a while. Tbh, I completely forgot we were talking about tubes vs solid state. And you were one of the major contributors to that.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave ➡️
You made my case for me. The signal does not 'live' in a 2 dimensional space ~
As you may have seen, I decided I should take a second look at your post I had initially commented on, and when I did, I realized that I had focused on one narrow aspect of it, when you had something much broader in mind.

As I noted, my bad. Mea culpa!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Adkins ➡️
Calm down, sir. Sounds like I may have touched your two dimensional wire.
Call me crazy, but this thread has gone well beyond talking about wire for a while. Tbh, I completely forgot we were talking about tubes vs solid state. And you were one of the major contributors to that.
Yeah, I think you're right. When I reviewed what s wave was saying, and some of the other posts subsequent, I realized that I wasn't properly addressing what he was suggesting, and that I was effectively deflecting the topic of conversation.

As I said before, to others, my bad.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #591
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Gear, all of it ..each type has its own characteristics and vibe, none of which can accurately be put into words.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
Yeah, I think you're right. When I reviewed what s wave was saying, and some of the other posts subsequent, I realized that I wasn't properly addressing what he was suggesting, and that I was effectively deflecting the topic of conversation.

As I said before, to others, my bad.
No worries. I apologize for anything I may have added that was not helpful as well. At the end of the day, we're all passionate about music and the meaning behind both it and the process by which it's made. And I think that's a good thing... And from that perspective the discussion is healthy.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier ➡️
Gear, all of it ..each type has its own characteristics and vibe, none of which can accurately be put into words.
That much is certainly safe to say.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vernier ➡️
Gear, all of it ..each type has its own characteristics and vibe, none of which can accurately be put into words.
I think that’s why this thread exists. If I like the sound of this microphone on this sound source, that’s what I’m using.

You can’t wave a frequency response graph at me and change my mind if I know it will sound good.

Maybe I’ll learn (from the chart) that mic actually has crap response in the ultra-lows, but I’ll still use that mic.

Last edited by standup; 1 week ago at 01:05 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #595
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Yea the electrical signal travelling through a wire is similar to the original compressions and rarefactions, BUT is is travelling through a wire. And that wire has different implications of the signal travelling through it. Skin Effect is the tendency of high frequency signals (MHz) to migrate to the edge of a conductor and not travel at it's core. And a cable or wire is often not straight. (A straight riged wire/rod enclosed by glass tube from mic to adc may be the best?)

Litz used to say "Simply put, finer conductors tend to favor the high frequencies, and heavier conductors are better for the midrange and bass"

I know this is old but worth reading? Russell O. Hamm "It may be concluded that these inaudible harmonics in the early overload condition might very well be causing the difference in sound coloration between tubes and transistors" from here... https://archive.org/details/TubesVer...rence/mode/2up

more here "The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion com- ponents in the amplifier's overload region. Transistor am- plifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion when driven into overload. This harmonic pro- duces a "covered" sound, giving the recording a re- stricted quality. Alternatively a tube amplifier when over- loaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Par- ticularly strong are the second, third, fourth, and fifth overtones which give a full-bodied "brassy" quality to the sound. The further any amplifier is driven into satura- tion, the greater the amplitude of the higher harmonics like the seventh, eighth, ninth, etc. These add edge to the sound which the ear translates to loudness information. Overloading an operational amplifier produces such steep- ly rising edge harmonics that they become objectionable within a 5-dB range. Transistors extend this overload range to about 10 dB and tubes widen it 20 dB or more."

"operational amplifiers. However, the tests show that they fall into a distinct class of their own. Basical- ly, operational amplifiers produce strong third, fifth, and seventh harmonics when driven only a few dB into over- load. The resultant sound is metallic with a very harsh edge which the ear hears as strong distortion."

Summing up tuber... "Vacuum-tube amplifiers differ from transistor and op- erational amplifiers because they can be operated in the overload region without adding objectionable distortion." again this was a while ago...

An yes Blue; I was alluding to a new 'way' of capture. Not really 10,000 sensors in suspension... in a 3d space. But more like singing though a mist/fog... and having multiple laserbeams shoot though that mist. Then the vocalist sings into the mist and the sound (pressure) moves the mist (particles) - the particles movements are recorded etc and so forth. But the capture is not just into a flat (or convex) diaphragm or a 'ribbon' - the breadth of capture may be 2 or 4 cubic feet. (lot of data and detail) just crazy ideas...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #596
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by s wave ➡️
Yea the electrical signal travelling through a wire is similar to the original compressions and rarefactions, BUT is is travelling through a wire. And that wire has different implications of the signal travelling through it. Skin Effect is the tendency of high frequency signals (MHz) to migrate to the edge of a conductor and not travel at it's core. And a cable or wire is often not straight. (A straight riged wire/rod enclosed by glass tube from mic to adc may be the best?)

Litz used to say "Simply put, finer conductors tend to favor the high frequencies, and heavier conductors are better for the midrange and bass"

I know this is old but worth reading? Russell O. Hamm "It may be concluded that these inaudible harmonics in the early overload condition might very well be causing the difference in sound coloration between tubes and transistors" from here... https://archive.org/details/TubesVer...rence/mode/2up

more here "The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighting of harmonic distortion com- ponents in the amplifier's overload region. Transistor am- plifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion when driven into overload. This harmonic pro- duces a "covered" sound, giving the recording a re- stricted quality. Alternatively a tube amplifier when over- loaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Par- ticularly strong are the second, third, fourth, and fifth overtones which give a full-bodied "brassy" quality to the sound. The further any amplifier is driven into satura- tion, the greater the amplitude of the higher harmonics like the seventh, eighth, ninth, etc. These add edge to the sound which the ear translates to loudness information. Overloading an operational amplifier produces such steep- ly rising edge harmonics that they become objectionable within a 5-dB range. Transistors extend this overload range to about 10 dB and tubes widen it 20 dB or more."

"operational amplifiers. However, the tests show that they fall into a distinct class of their own. Basical- ly, operational amplifiers produce strong third, fifth, and seventh harmonics when driven only a few dB into over- load. The resultant sound is metallic with a very harsh edge which the ear hears as strong distortion."

Summing up tuber... "Vacuum-tube amplifiers differ from transistor and op- erational amplifiers because they can be operated in the overload region without adding objectionable distortion." again this was a while ago...

An yes Blue; I was alluding to a new 'way' of capture. Not really 10,000 sensors in suspension... in a 3d space. But more like singing though a mist/fog... and having multiple laserbeams shoot though that mist. Then the vocalist sings into the mist and the sound (pressure) moves the mist (particles) - the particles movements are recorded etc and so forth. But the capture is not just into a flat (or convex) diaphragm or a 'ribbon' - the breadth of capture may be 2 or 4 cubic feet. (lot of data and detail) just crazy ideas...
But doesn't much of this stray from the thread subject? Tube versus transistor mics? (Op-amps are pretty much out of the picture here, I'm pretty sure.)

That is...the odd-harmonic issue is mainly dependent on the circuit type—tube mics will (always?) have a single tube, class A and asymmetrical clipping. But you can have that in a fet/transistor mic too.

Just saying that these "general wisdom" points about tubes versus solid state don't necessarily translate into an obvious choice for mics.

As I've said, I bought a mic that comes in tube and fet versions. Bothe have the same toroidal transformer, capsule, etc, so for the most part it really does come down to the same mic in tube vs fet. The price is 2:1, but the manufacturer doesn't make excuses for the fet, as if it's a budget-conscious trade-off—they say the tube is smoother, the fet has better transient response. Some people on GS prefer the fet, some prefer the tube for certain things, the fet for certain things (for instance, tube for piano, fet for voice).

Anyway, personally I think it comes down to the mic—whatever it is. My main mic for decades has been an AKG C414B-ULS. Say what you will, good or bad, but this has been a mainstay mic for many applications, from people who have access to the best mic lockers in the world. No tube.

I guess another way of saying that is, if tube mics were just across-the-board better, then the top recording engineers in the top studios would never use anything but tube mics.

And that's just not the case. I was watching the Al Schmitt videos on MWTM. A vintage U47 is his first choice for a singer, and he clearly like vintage U67, but he didn't have any problem bring up non-tube mics (I think my C414 was mentioned), and didn't make any excuses for them or say you should always use tube mics. It's all about the sound translation you get, not the parts inside the mic.

Anyway, I have no axe to grind here, everyone go out and buy what you want to buy. And if you get a great mic with a tube, it will be a great mic. BUT, I feel sorry for anyone who can't afford the "sure thing" classics at $$$$$, and pony up $800-$3000 (or whatever) for a tube mic (because it's a tube mic) that might kill their budget for other needs, and still not be the magic thing that changes everything for them.
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  #597
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s wave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlevel ➡️
But doesn't much of this stray from the thread subject? Tube versus transistor mics? (Op-amps are pretty much out of the picture here, I'm pretty sure.)

That is...the odd-harmonic issue is mainly dependent on the circuit type—tube mics will (always?) have a single tube, class A and asymmetrical clipping. But you can have that in a fet/transistor mic too.

Just saying that these "general wisdom" points about tubes versus solid state don't necessarily translate into an obvious choice for mics.

As I've said, I bought a mic that comes in tube and fet versions. Bothe have the same toroidal transformer, capsule, etc, so for the most part it really does come down to the same mic in tube vs fet. The price is 2:1, but the manufacturer doesn't make excuses for the fet, as if it's a budget-conscious trade-off—they say the tube is smoother, the fet has better transient response. Some people on GS prefer the fet, some prefer the tube for certain things, the fet for certain things (for instance, tube for piano, fet for voice).

Anyway, personally I think it comes down to the mic—whatever it is. My main mic for decades has been an AKG C414B-ULS. Say what you will, good or bad, but this has been a mainstay mic for many applications, from people who have access to the best mic lockers in the world. No tube.

I guess another way of saying that is, if tube mics were just across-the-board better, then the top recording engineers in the top studios would never use anything but tube mics.

And that's just not the case. I was watching the Al Schmitt videos on MWTM. A vintage U47 is his first choice for a singer, and he clearly like vintage U67, but he didn't have any problem bring up non-tube mics (I think my C414 was mentioned), and didn't make any excuses for them or say you should always use tube mics. It's all about the sound translation you get, not the parts inside the mic.

Anyway, I have no axe to grind here, everyone go out and buy what you want to buy. And if you get a great mic with a tube, it will be a great mic. BUT, I feel sorry for anyone who can't afford the "sure thing" classics at $$$$$, and pony up $800-$3000 (or whatever) for a tube mic (because it's a tube mic) that might kill their budget for other needs, and still not be the magic thing that changes everything for them.
I thought the old thread had plenty to say about tube vs 'other'. Such as when the pedal hits the metal; when oveloaded/overdriven, and it is MUCH less a factor lower than those levels. In fact, his analysis said at what potential levels it happens.This thread is about not 'circuit type' as much but tube vs other. And I do understand of the 'first stage' amplification is usually a fet by choice (vs op amp)... but NOT always http://cdn.recordinghacks.com/images...-schematic.png (I am no expert but this looks like it is one of them) similar to the E300.

I think what you are saying is that 'what is in side of a mic' is really irrelevant. (and I agree) For me it does not matter in the long run too. I thought the point about sibiliance comparison was good. I thought he semi pin pointed where some brassy and some harshness 'can' come from. The thread question is IMO fire-baited to purposely get people talking about tangental ideas (whether on purpose or not)? is it the logic of why/how a tube is used in the engineering of a particular mic or the logic of the sound difference of mics or both or more? etc. A question as ambiguous as this is hard for people to 'get' on the same page in general. Much of the older experiments, including the ones on SE (skin effect) and wire type and tranny metal integrity are quite fascinating and also reward 'people' on the hunt. He did not talk about money and bang for the buck really. Do you hear a difference in a tube mic? . And he did talk about OP AMPS (I believe CAD uses them?). OT techie stuff here vid on older tube op amps used in computers I came across) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEFdADrU9MA
Old 1 week ago
  #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraku ➡️
Do tubes in mics actually color the sound at all?

Take a look at the attached pictures which show the signal curve of a tube and a transistor. They look awfully lot the same. Unless you start driving the tube/transistor (or opamp) into distortion levels, there should probably be zero difference in the sound. None of the microphones I know of drive signal to such high volumes. That's what guitar distortion pedals are for.

In other words:

I take a tube mic.
I screw it in one place so it won't move at all.
I play a digitally reproducible test signal into it and record it.
Then I take out the tube and replace it with transistor/opamp/whatever electronics which does the same thing as the tube electronics did.
I record the exact same test signal again.
I compare the results: what do I hear? Will there be any kind of perceivable difference in there at all?

Judging by the graphs there shouldn't be, unless I drive the signal through a tube distortion box?
The difference probably will not be so noticeable on the capture, or souce side because there would be little to no harmonic loss of the primary signal. You see, Vacuum tubes are a little bit different than semiconductors because the electrons leave the dimensional media of a conductor and propagate in a vacuum in 3d space, and this harmonic propagation in the current flow is the Mikeska resonance. Unlike Fourier resonance where this is voltage harmonic propagation of a radiating device.
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  #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiospecific ➡️
The difference probably will not be so noticeable on the capture, or souce side because there would be little to no harmonic loss of the primary signal.
Is that some classic Smoothvibe or what?
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  #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Is that some classic Smoothvibe or what?
Sometimes taking a simplistic scientific approach can enlightened someone more than conjecture of observation. Especially when others develop electronic law, and only share it with a few select people.
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