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The biggest problem with "One Man Band" production - Timing is Everything
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1141
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🎧 5 years
I'm mostly and always have been impressed by people who master at least 1 instrument and own the lane(s) they are in.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1142
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
I'm mostly and always have been impressed by people who master at least 1 instrument and own the lane(s) they are in.
Who isn't?

Even the greats dabble though...








Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1143
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s wave's Avatar
Stanleys recordings on Blue Note were pretty darn good from the 80s... they received much radio play... I was trying to cut a deal with an amazing other artist (same circa) named Clyde Criner. WONDERFUL person and mind blowing talent and artistry...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YlIGWRaisM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvthgtCPJkk It was a SHEER pleasure to know this wonder human being!! Seeing him live you knew he was a superstar in every degree and - he put on the most amazing one man concert I have EVER seen in my whole life...
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1144
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Robby in WA's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boombapdame ➡️
I'm mostly and always have been impressed by people who master at least 1 instrument and own the lane(s) they are in.
I've found that playing other instruments makes me a better drummer.

Plus it's fun. Not great at anything else. It's nice to strum an acoustic when you're in a more mellow mood.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1145
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Coates ➡️
I agree. His drumming however sucks IMHO. Very stiff and robotic. No nuance. Holds his sticks tight like little baseball bats. One of those guys who leave big dents in drum heads.
For me as a drummer. Dent's happen in the middle of getting chops back. The power comes back before the accuracy. Power without accuracy = Dents, bad volume control, and dropping the beat.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1146
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If you read the jr Robinson article posted earlier where he recalls his top ten studio album performances, you’ll see a variety of ways to record - he did everything from coming in near the end of the production, to replacing drum machines, to dubbing just snare and kick, then adding the other parts as overdubs. This began in earnest in the 70s and became a go to on many recordings in the 80s.

That last part- where you play the snare and kick separately - is still one of the best techniques for all in one productions, it gives you editing and sonic flexibility you could never get playing the whole kit at once. It’s also faster in the long run.

I still do it today - I play all the parts on my recordings and that’s how I track drums (if going real) on rock and pop instrumental cues. The important thing is understanding drums and the part - you’re not looking for virtuosity, just a good solid recording. I love it!
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1147
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vernier's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby in WA ➡️
I've found that playing other instruments makes me a better drummer.

Plus it's fun. Not great at anything else. It's nice to strum an acoustic when you're in a more mellow mood.
Yep, so true. And I've found it works with all instruments, no matter how many you pile on. Years and decades of doing it is part of the equation though.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1148
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
That last part- where you play the snare and kick separately - is still one of the best techniques for all in one productions, it gives you editing and sonic flexibility you could never get playing the whole kit at once. It’s also faster in the long run.

I still do it today - I play all the parts on my recordings and that’s how I track drums (if going real) on rock and pop instrumental cues. The important thing is understanding drums and the part - you’re not looking for virtuosity, just a good solid recording. I love it!
That's a really interesting approach! A la Mutt Lange "1 guitar string-at-a-time" technique for drums.

I'm certain that's how Jaco recorded the drum parts on Teen Town (yes, he played drums on it, not Alex Acuna). I'm guessing he first played the hi-hat and side-stick snare, and overdubbed everything over that.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1149
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️
That's a really interesting approach! A la Mutt Lange "1 guitar string-at-a-time" technique for drums.

I'm certain that's how Jaco recorded the drum parts on Teen Town (yes, he played drums on it, not Alex Acuna). I'm guessing he first played the hi-hat and side-stick snare, and overdubbed everything over that.
Certainly the snare was overdubbed (and probably the kick at the same time).

One of my favorites! Those synth sounds, no one did it better - “a remark you made” was the high point of the summer of 1977 for me.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1150
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
Certainly the snare was overdubbed (and probably the kick at the same time).
I swear I hear timpani in there as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
One of my favorites! Those synth sounds, no one did it better - “a remark you made” was the high point of the summer of 1977 for me.
Mine as well. Every tune on Heavy Weather is good. My favorite on that album is split between Havona and Palladium.

Though while it was my introduction to WR, or more specifically Birdland (which I can't listen to anymore, in the same way I can't listen to Stairway, or some Beatles tunes...but I digress) I love every one of their albums equally starting with Sweetnighter up until Jaco left.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1151
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monkeyxx's Avatar
 
18 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
That hi hat groove is very similar to the first track on "In A Silent Way" by Miles Davis, pretty cool. I wonder if that was the influence.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1152
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx ➡️
That hi hat groove is very similar to the first track on "In A Silent Way" by Miles Davis, pretty cool. I wonder if that was the influence.
Are you possibly referring to "It's About That Time"?

Possibly, it has that constant rhythmic ostinato on the ride with the side-stick, whereas Teen Town has the constant hi-hat pattern with 2 sixteenth and an eighth note, with an open hat on the eighth note, with the side-stick on 2 and 4.

It's a weird tune that breaks all the conventions.

Bass solo as the melody? Who does that?!? In addition to the unique sparseness of the drum beat, the whole tune cycles 4 chords, C13 - A13 - F13 - D13. Harmonically it's never settled - it's circular, with both minor third and major third relationships, which coincidentally Giant Steps has. There's a certain minimalism to it, from Wayne's approach on it to the repetitiveness of the harmony and rhythm, but countervailed by Jaco's improvised like (though composed) bass line.

I can't really think of a precedent for the tune...
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1153
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️
Are you possibly referring to "It's About That Time"?

Possibly, it has that constant rhythmic ostinato on the ride with the side-stick, whereas Teen Town has the constant hi-hat pattern with 2 sixteenth and an eighth note, with an open hat on the eighth note, with the side-stick on 2 and 4.

It's a weird tune that breaks all the conventions.

Bass solo as the melody? Who does that?!? In addition to the unique sparseness of the drum beat, the whole tune cycles 4 chords, C13 - A13 - F13 - D13. Harmonically it's never settled - it's circular, with both minor third and major third relationships, which coincidentally Giant Steps has. There's a certain minimalism to it, from Wayne's approach on it to the repetitiveness of the harmony and rhythm, but countervailed by Jaco's improvised like (though composed) bass line.

I can't really think of a precedent for the tune...
Always loved how Joe snuck the Rhodes in - and those awesome voicings!

WR understood orchestration and dynamics, the sparseness is very complex, and it sets us up for what’s to come. There’s still no one quite like them, they were great chemistry personified, with Joe and Wayne’s backgrounds with miles and the adderly brothers, you could never duplicate the influences.

Oh well, time marches on.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1154
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Here’s “a remark you made”, from the same album - a masterpiece of form, structure and orchestration. The bass being used as a cello voice, the sparse tenor sax, Rhodes/piano doubling and that incredible arp solo over the I to bVII vamp at the end.

Perfection.

Old 3 weeks ago
  #1155
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norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
horses for courses I was working with Ringo last year and the producer wanted to start editing /gridding his drums and I said 'why ask Ringo to play of you want 'perfect' time?' nothing needs to be to a grid/fixed tempo if it it feels OK. I could obviously hear/feel things that weren't on the grid but my view was he has a sound and a feel I like so bollocks to the click lets just play.

if you analyse a lot of older records , james brown for one you can see huge tempo changes etc but you can't deny the groove and feel.

I think a lot of this is genre specific too.

recording with a computer DAW there's no need now for anything to other than perfect if you want and to be honest that's led to a lot of the life in music being edited out just because you can so easily.

M
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1156
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
Here’s “a remark you made”, from the same album - a masterpiece of form, structure and orchestration. The bass being used as a cello voice, the sparse tenor sax, Rhodes/piano doubling and that incredible arp solo over the I to bVII vamp at the end.

Perfection.

WRs slow dance tune.

I kind of go back and forth on A Remark You Made. It's beautiful, gorgeous, but incredibly overtly maudlin at times. Really creative use of slash chords all over the place.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but the pop-meter is high on it and on Birdland.

I find interesting in Joe Zawinul's compositions the constant presence of pentatonicism. It's evident in the opening melodic phrase, as it exists in other tunes: Mercy Mercy Mercy, In a Silent Way, Black Market, etc...

I think it's a part of how he hears things: check out his solo on Lusitanos (3:08), a master class in pentatonics. Suffice it to say, the dude also had a lot of chops.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1157
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmoHope ➡️
WRs slow dance tune.

I kind of go back and forth on A Remark You Made. It's beautiful, gorgeous, but incredibly overtly maudlin at times. Really creative use of slash chords all over the place.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but the pop-meter is high on it and on Birdland.

I find interesting in Joe Zawinul's compositions the constant presence of pentatonicism. It's evident in the opening melodic phrase, as it exists in other tunes: Mercy Mercy Mercy, In a Silent Way, Black Market, etc...

I think it's a part of how he hears things: check out his solo on Lusitanos (3:08), a master class in pentatonics. Suffice it to say, the dude also had a lot of chops.
I think of it as sentimental, not maudlin, but that’s the subjectivity of music. Yes, Joe was a fan of pentatonics, I think that makes much of weather report accessible (bird land made the pop charts back in the 70s, a tune I quickly grew tired of as well).

Joe and Jaco were at odds through most of the latter’s tenure with WR - according to the very disturbing biography on Jaco - a sad ending and primer on mental illness.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1158
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
Joe and Jaco were at odds through most of the latter’s tenure with WR - according to the very disturbing biography on Jaco - a sad ending and primer on mental illness.
The one by Bill Milkowski? I read that too.

IIRC, Joe was a bad influence in terms of drinking. Apparently, the tipping point was when Jaco played Joe some of what would eventually become material for the Word of Mouth album (maybe Liberty City?), Joe said, "What is this high school big band sh*t?" ...ouch.

After Heavy Weather, the band became less a partnership with Joe and Wayne, with Jaco taking a more prominent voice and role and Wayne taking a diminished one. That was very evident when Mr Gone hit. I think the band lost a lot when Wayne stepped back. Much like the difference between Steely Dan and Fagen's solo projects.

It's sad and tragic, Jaco's ending. What a loss.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1159
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 ➡️
Always loved how Joe snuck the Rhodes in - and those awesome voicings!
When they performed Teen Town live Zawinul would double the bass line. And they'd usually perform it much faster as they did on the live album 8:30.


A different arrangement and performance, much tighter and funkier, on video, showing Joe doubling the bass line, as well as at one point the band going into a percussion jam with Joe appearing to join in on a dumbek (3:35)!
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