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Warm Audio WA-73 + WA-273EQ !!
Old 14th September 2020
  #1381
Here for the gear
 
Upon further investigation into the workings of the WA-273 preamp it would appear I was incorrect in my quick assessment. According to Warm Audio tech support, the TONE button pressed in is the 300 ohm setting and should also show an increase in gain. My impedance measurements were invalid because the preamp not only changes the impedance but also changes the gain compensation. So, to summarize ... TONE button out is 1200 ohms, TONE button in is 300 ohms. I verified this.

I did look at the HPF behavior and can verify that the gain does bump up at the knee. I have included a gain/phase plot for the 80hz setting, but all settings exhibited the same relative response. It would appear there is about a 1.6db increase around the cutoff frequency. Not an issue for me but I can imagine some would like to see a flatter response.

Thanks for listening ...

Daniel
Attached Thumbnails
Warm Audio WA-73 + WA-273EQ !!-sds2104x-plus_jpg_8.jpg  
Old 15th September 2020 | Show parent
  #1382
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerstreetlabs ➡️

Thanks for listening ...

Daniel
Thanks for taking the time and presenting the information.
Old 16th September 2020 | Show parent
  #1383
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk ➡️
These have internal PSU’s.
I’m wondering if this will make this pre any noisier than the others. Other manufacturers went with external PSU’s to keep the noise down at this price point. Warm themselves used external PSU’s on their TB12 and WA12?
Internal PSU's are def more problematic sometimes, esp in the Neve circuitry... its why you see Vintech and BAE often did ext. supplies.
Old 22nd November 2020 | Show parent
  #1384
Lives for gear
 
Granny Gremlin's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerstreetlabs ➡️
Upon further investigation into the workings of the WA-273 preamp it would appear I was incorrect in my quick assessment. According to Warm Audio tech support, the TONE button pressed in is the 300 ohm setting and should also show an increase in gain. My impedance measurements were invalid because the preamp not only changes the impedance but also changes the gain compensation. So, to summarize ... TONE button out is 1200 ohms, TONE button in is 300 ohms. I verified this.

I did look at the HPF behavior and can verify that the gain does bump up at the knee. I have included a gain/phase plot for the 80hz setting, but all settings exhibited the same relative response. It would appear there is about a 1.6db increase around the cutoff frequency. Not an issue for me but I can imagine some would like to see a flatter response.

Thanks for listening ...

Daniel
Shouldn't really be a problem for anyone - some EQs, both vintage and modern, are prized for exactly this type of response (though it is usually more than a 1.6 db bump, which is pretty much negligible, which is why nobody should care; if you tell me that you can hear that, I call bull****). See resonant filters. There's an option for this on the Elysia XFilter for example that I enjoy.

Also, many bass reflex speakers with small diameter woofers (including some studio monitors) also exhibit this sort of response (IMHO, bad in that application, but again, usually a bigger bump; this here is inaudible).
Old 30th December 2020 | Show parent
  #1385
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granny Gremlin ➡️
a 1.6 db bump, which is pretty much negligible, which is why nobody should care; if you tell me that you can hear that, I call bull****.
Not a big deal in this thread, but for general understanding...
By definition, a one db change in audio level IS barely perceptible to most people, and a half db change in level is perceptible to many audio engineers.
Pacific Stereo would set up switching networks where the gear they wanted you to buy was one db louder than the other gear. Customers didn’t hear it as louder, they just thought it sounded better.
Old 30th December 2020 | Show parent
  #1386
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdkelly ➡️
Internal PSU's are def more problematic sometimes, esp in the Neve circuitry... its why you see Vintech and BAE often did ext. supplies.
I have a quick question regarding external power supplies. Understanding they are different right off the bat, RND's has their power in the box for their shelford channel. Again, I know these are not the same, but i just thought that was interesting
Old 14th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1387
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
So i've lurked this entire thread. I'd like to bring things back to focus.

Can we get some solid shootouts of the Warm Audio wa73 and an actual Neve unit?

My thought is, why wouldn't the Warm be a great "clone"? How many of these other companies thought to strike a deal with Carnhill to make custom transformers based on the original Marinair transformer?

From what I can gather, making a neve clone is not as expensive compared to what some of these companies are selling them at. So I don't think price should be an issue.

I can't fathom why it wouldn't sound like a Neve but I'd like to hear if that theory is true.

When I think of vintage 1073's I think of that fat transformer low mid thiccc-ness with a dark, almost congested, top end. Based on sounds of albums that I know were mixed on Neve consoles.

If it gets me that, i'd be happy but the gearslut in me has to know how it sounds compared to the real deal.

The clipilator seems to suggest that the BAE and WARM are super close with a slight edge to BAE in terms of top end smoothness. Apart of me has to wonder if it is a fair comparison. They most likely kept the gain at the same settings, but as we know, each unit may saturate more than the other when on the same settings. For all I know, the warm may saturate the same if it was driven 1 notch higher.

Who knows. Maybe someone could shed some light.
Old 14th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1388
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
https://youtu.be/w8VNqDYbXho


I found this shootout quite helpful.

Half way through there is a clav type keyboard sound, very broad frequency spectrum and also quite percussive. Usually I want to hear vocals, but I definitely noticed the Neve sounding alot richer and more exciting.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1389
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I shot it out against the BAE 1073mpf. The warm was going for a thicker vibe, but it was not as open, or detailed, as the BAE. And, as I and others mentioned, the resonance bump at the cutoff frequency on the hpf did not work in my room. As tracks stack it would get more problematic for me.

The BAE is more open and detailed. I went for that because it worked better in my room. YMMV
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1390
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han ➡️
I shot it out against the BAE 1073mpf. The warm was going for a thicker vibe, but it was not as open, or detailed, as the BAE. And, as I and others mentioned, the resonance bump at the cutoff frequency on the hpf did not work in my room. As tracks stack it would get more problematic for me.

The BAE is more open and detailed. I went for that because it worked better in my room. YMMV
That description is what puzzles me. My understanding of Neves is that they are dark pre amps. Open and detailed isn't what I associate with them. One engineer I spoke with who worked on one of my favorite albums told me that he had to boost the 12k on his neve all the time because they were too dark.

Obviously, BAE works for what you want out of them but I, being an OCD gearslut, can't help but wonder which is closer to a vintage Neve.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1391
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjono2000 ➡️
https://youtu.be/w8VNqDYbXho


I found this shootout quite helpful.

Half way through there is a clav type keyboard sound, very broad frequency spectrum and also quite percussive. Usually I want to hear vocals, but I definitely noticed the Neve sounding alot richer and more exciting.
I just took a listen and ripped the audio and opened it in logic.

Something isn't right.

The Neve smokes the warm. Like it's not even close when you listen to the drum loop.

The kick and snare almost sound like they are different samples when compared to the Neve (they aren't but that is how far apart the sound is). The Neve is significantly thicker and more saturated.

The wave image seems to support this. Notice the Neve (top) transients are significantly rounder than the warm.

Either, this test wasn't conducted right or the AMS is just that damn good.

It's only 300 dollars more than the warm but every shootout with BAE and Heritage against the warm, the warm always was at least in the ball park. So it shouldn't be that far off from the AMS.

I am wondering if he used the DI on the warm units (which don't go through the transformer, or so i've read) or The AMS saturates more at lower gain settings compared to the warm in which case he would have needed to turn up the warms pre amp gain too.
Attached Thumbnails
Warm Audio WA-73 + WA-273EQ !!-screen-shot-2021-01-14-10.34.13-pm.jpg  
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1392
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewrayrgv ➡️
That description is what puzzles me. My understanding of Neves is that they are dark pre amps. Open and detailed isn't what I associate with them. One engineer I spoke with who worked on one of my favorite albums told me that he had to boost the 12k on his neve all the time because they were too dark.

Obviously, BAE works for what you want out of them but I, being an OCD gearslut, can't help but wonder which is closer to a vintage Neve.
You should read some of the threads on here with contributions from old neve engineers. 1073’s varied a lot and there were quite a few revisions. Perhaps more than 15 iirc? Then, people will endlessly argue which brand is the most pure and sonically similar to old Neves between heritage and BAE and AMS Neve.

The warm does thick but not quite that level of detail. I think it is certainly capable of helping you make great records.

Best thing you could do is get a unit of each and compare yourself. That’s what I did.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1393
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewrayrgv ➡️

When I think of vintage 1073's I think of that fat transformer low mid thiccc-ness with a dark, almost congested, top end. Based on sounds of albums that I know were mixed on Neve consoles.

If it gets me that, i'd be happy
The answer is YES
I got WA-73eq and this is how I would describe the character of the unit.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1394
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
That's cool that you imported and checked it out.
I think you maybe onto something.
My initial thoughts were something was different in the settings, like impedance.

You're right it absolutely smokes it.


Would love to hear what someone like Chad Kelly thinks. As he worked there for a good amount of time during the release of alot of these products.

If the di skips the input transformer then that could explain.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1395
Gear Maniac
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjono2000 ➡️
That's cool that you imported and checked it out.
I think you maybe onto something.
My initial thoughts were something was different in the settings, like impedance.

You're right it absolutely smokes it.


Would love to hear what someone like Chad Kelly thinks. As he worked there for a good amount of time during the release of alot of these products.

If the di skips the input transformer then that could explain.
Warm got back to me. Apparently the DI does run through the transformers on the warm.


It doesn't add up. BAE sounds thicker and darker than an AMS neve. Warm sounds at least 95% as good as a BAE if not better in some way (Based on clipilator and soundpures shootout.).

It doesn't make sense why the warm would be that off in the youtube shootout that was linked about.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1396
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Ye for me, the biggest difference was actually 4:59 ELECTRIC PIANO 2

The stereo spread of the Neve clip almost makes the WARM clip sound mono, they're far too different.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1397
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewrayrgv ➡️
Warm got back to me. Apparently the DI does run through the transformers on the warm.


It doesn't add up. BAE sounds thicker and darker than an AMS neve. Warm sounds at least 95% as good as a BAE if not better in some way (Based on clipilator and soundpures shootout.).

It doesn't make sense why the warm would be that off in the youtube shootout that was linked about.
Because the clipilator isn’t perfect. It’s prerecorded material run through other equipment for you to get a general idea. Again, get these pieces in your place and try yourself. Will you hear a difference? Gotta take a leap at some point and try. That’s the only way you’ll really know and hear.
Old 29th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1398
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I just tested the WA273EQ on bass and vocals

I tested as bass DI, and with condenser mic on vocals

My findings:

Used as simply a preamp (NO EQ), the sound is a bit thicker/warmer than my SPL Crimson preamps

Used as a preamp + EQ, it's fantastic, you can make the sound really clear and sweet

The EQ really is great

The preamp/DI is nothing stellar - sure it makes the sound a bit more "weighty"

Last edited by auxReturn; 29th January 2021 at 06:59 AM..
Old 29th January 2021
  #1399
JAT
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The warm does have the Neve thickness. As pointed out elsewhere actual Neves are all over the place, considering they all have had work done on them at 40+ years old. But the warm is in there and really thick. Which makes the eq a nice addition, giving a lot more input variety. As well as a good hardware eq. I don’t think the warm is as detailed as some of the other clones, when I compared it next to a real neve it sparkled differently when driven - at different frequencies. But was it in the neve family - sure.

The warm is a great pre (esp. with the eq) and provides a great complement for clean interface pres.
Old 29th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1400
Gear Nut
 
croger's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
i have the 2 channel warm pre eq

I have had pretty extensive experience in all the NYC rooms with Neve consoles. I preferred SSL 4k or 9k in the past. The Warm has all the check marks for a 1073. since all the real Neves sound different anyways the Warm is basically the same in use. I do like the fact that you can get great gear these days without breaking the bank. My philosophy is they are just tools to make my creative work easier. So I can go home and do other stuff.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1401
Lives for gear
 
ghostman's Avatar
.....just got a Dual with eq and love it


having read multiple mixers whose hybrid work i really admire.... discussing how they always run their drums bass and vocal through a neve and everything else through the SSL i decided to go for a little analog world experimentation/emulation.

The WA 273 with the tone button in on my drums and bass and everything else through my SSL SIX and Fusion ....

...for me the definition in the stereo image and Hz spectrum is night and day from a straight in the box mix (only IMO)....

love this box on my drums ....next week is try-outs for vocal sessions
Old 10th February 2021
  #1402
Gear Nut
 
shooten's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I started this thread three days ago and just finished. Thanks for the entertainment. I’ve got the Great River and the Vintech x73i. Love them both. Especially for the vocalists I track. Did @ herecomesyourman ever get one? Warm may be in my future if I can make rack space.
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1403
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooten ➡️
I started this thread three days ago and just finished. Thanks for the entertainment. I’ve got the Great River and the Vintech x73i. Love them both. Especially for the vocalists I track. Did @ herecomesyourman ever get one? Warm may be in my future if I can make rack space.
I did. I own a Warm Audio 273 (*the version without the EQ).

I've been tracking vocals with it on my new album. We just wrapped drums with Mike Malinin, who played drums in The Goo Goo Dolls for 19 years; Mike played on Iris and Black Balloon, all their biggest hits, etc.). He's played like Peter Criss meets David Lovering from The Pixies...it's kind of phenomenal.

I'm mixing, and probably mastering it...we tracked 11 songs. So far all the scratch vocals done with the Warm have made it to the finish line, but I still might recut a few (we'll see how I feel about it after bass is cut and the mixes are mostly done...perfect can be boring with Rock 'n Roll).

I prefer the Tone Button in on my CM49 (just gives it a little more texture). So I believe everything used that. I also used it to cut acoustic guitar using a Heilsound PR 30 and a Shure KSM 353 ED Ribbon (which has a very saturated, 70s vibe to me with the tone button in).

I love the Great River MP-2NV, but that's a more Hi-Fi sound to me (way more expensive sounding). I do want to get one for the new studio at some point however. The thing about the Warm is it feels extremely close to my old 1066s, so I'm pretty happy with it for getting vocals on the darker side.
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1404
Gear Nut
 
shooten's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
@ herecomesyourman Cool! Thanks for the reply. I read through just to see your opinion. Did the transformers do as you expected? I use the GR mostly for the Di tracking bass but it has its place for a very clean, beautiful vocalist I record. It’s a hobby, I’m an electrical engineer and this hasn’t touched paying my mortgage. Love it though.
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1405
Lives for gear
 
herecomesyourman's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooten ➡️
@ herecomesyourman Cool! Thanks for the reply. I read through just to see your opinion. Did the transformers do as you expected? I use the GR mostly for the Di tracking bass but it has its place for a very clean, beautiful vocalist I record. It’s a hobby, I’m an electrical engineer and this hasn’t touched paying my mortgage. Love it though.
Anytime Shooten.

YES the transformers in the Warm are very close to my old Brent Averill racked Marinair Radar Neves from the 70s.

You can't fake the sound of wear and tear from heat (which causes a little phasing, etc.) But the frequency response is very close. I know it's probably unpopular to say they compete with clones which are thousands more, but I think they sound better than everything but the AMS Neve units (and then it's more red and green apples, very similar in a lot of respects).

I love the Great River, I just think of it as it's own thing, and not a "Neve", more a "son-of-Neve" evolution in design. They're one of the most expensive sounding hi-fi units to me. Whereas the Neve stuff feels a lot more saturated, and a bit more lo-fi, but it can take a lot of SPL as a result without sounding brittle.

The pros and cons of them are, that the Great River "stacks" tracks very nicely because it has less by way of low midrange in muddier frequency ranges.

But it's a little easier to soften "esses" with a Neve that has a Marinair Radar style transformer even before applying a Deesser.

The Great River will sound "Clearer" with it's natural 12kHz-ish presence on the top end, and low end in the 60Hz range.

The Marinair style Neve will have a really beautiful low end in the 60 Hz range too...but will also beautifully saturate around 10kHz naturally.

They both take EQ well...but I think of the transient response on the GR as a little "Harder" sounding (sometimes you want that though).

If budget was no obstacle right now for me, I would have four channels of both for basic tracking.
Old 10th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1406
Gear Nut
 
shooten's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Good to know about the transformers and GR. The GR into my gen1 Fatso sounds really good with light compression and a bit of warmth. It’s amazing how much I have that Fletcher had his hands on and how much the old Mercenary Audio influenced early purchases. Appreciate the response. Time to make some music!
Old 15th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1407
Lives for gear
 
ghostman's Avatar
Ive had the WA273EQ for a week or two now and I love the sound of this unit with the tone button in (no eq engaged) on vocals.....also the same for bass and kick drums

...it pulls the vocal/drums right forward in the centre like an Rvox ...but with actual "vibe" (which works great for trap soul)

I've not found anything i like with the EQ section yet ...but the only analog EQ I'm used to is SSL so im hoping to understand these EQ'S soon (sounds nothing like a 1081 or 1073 plug in of course, IMO )

If anyone has any EQ tips/tricks and fav settings for the WA73 EQ ....would be v. grateful to her from you?
Old 16th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1408
stk
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman ➡️
If anyone has any EQ tips/tricks and fav settings for the WA73 EQ ....would be v. grateful to her from you?
For synths, Tone engaged and HPF at 50hz really tightens up the low end. I then hone in on the sweet spots and shape them with l/m/h bands.
I'll often boost at 35hz & 12k, then fiddle with the mids to find some interesting textures to enhance.

The low cut + boost might sound silly, but it works
Old 16th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1409
Lives for gear
 
ghostman's Avatar
Lovely , thanks I’ll try those suggestions

I appreciate you taking a moment to pass that on
Old 16th February 2021 | Show parent
  #1410
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostman ➡️
Ive had the WA273EQ for a week or two now and I love the sound of this unit with the tone button in (no eq engaged) on vocals.....also the same for bass and kick drums

...it pulls the vocal/drums right forward in the centre like an Rvox ...but with actual "vibe" (which works great for trap soul)

I've not found anything i like with the EQ section yet ...but the only analog EQ I'm used to is SSL so im hoping to understand these EQ'S soon (sounds nothing like a 1081 or 1073 plug in of course, IMO )

If anyone has any EQ tips/tricks and fav settings for the WA73 EQ ....would be v. grateful to her from you?
My tip for the EQ is to be gentle. You can quickly go to extreme if not careful with this unit. I am mostly in the range of +-1-2dB. Also play with the hi-pass and have fun.
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