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Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)
Old 19th July 2017
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)

Just saw this online and am pretty excited about the prospect of owning this mic!

https://youtu.be/F8wHgv63KOo

Anyone have some more info??
Old 19th July 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 
foldback's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I like Dave but I'm not convinced at all about this latest microphone product.

Putting an uncompensated U67 capsule in and just leaving it for that "spark" in the highs sounds like marketing.

Nobody would need another mic like that because MXL already make a crapload of mic's with uncompensated type capsules, I've never heard that tone described as a positive feature or benefit, most of us think they're overly bright, especially at 14K and up. Personally that is not what the C800 sound like that I've heard.

Mic Parts has made several hundred dollars from me buying improved flatter response capsules to retrofit to my MXL donor bodies.

Also "we curved it", is this another way of saying we did accurate analysis?

Does he have an anechoic chamber and acoustic test equipment?

How about sending a Sony 800 and AA clone to an independent third party testing lab and lets see the frequency response of both on a graph please.

This just looks like a cheap lego model to me, built from Chinese stuff he already imports. Also leverages the tubes he's buying in 100 lots for $8 each which are also used in his U-48 style microphone.

Just my opinion, yours can be different.

Good music to all!
Old 19th July 2017
  #3
Lives for gear
 
laperlestudio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm not sure about what AA can do with the 800, because it's really not only about the frequency response, the 800 have a really particular way to capture the sound, it's really sensitive.

Of course it's brighter than a U67, but it's just a very different beast from anything else.

But I'm a fan of AA products, I have a C12 that I really enjoy.

I'm sure it's going to be a good mic, but I'm not sure about the mic to be similar to the sony...
Old 20th July 2017
  #4
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800T

Hi Guys, I only had two minutes to talk about the CM800T for the SOS interview.


Thanks to everyone who dropped by our booth at NAMM to talk microphones.


So, I will go into a bit more detail regarding the design considerations for building a microphone with a C800G type "sound".

I am including the original C800G schematic and response curve.

The circuit is nothing special just a common plate follower optimized around a 6AU6 tube.

The 6AU6 is a pentode configured as a triode to lower the plate impedance.

The circuit is basically the same as a U47 but features tube self bias not fixed bias.

Hence, the large 330 ufd cathode bypass capacitor.

The only thing Sony did differently was increase the plate voltage which yields 6db more headroom but the 6AU6 draws twice as much current as the VF14. This would give it more output than the average condenser microphone.

The 6AU6 was often the output tube in mantle radios I fixed for neighbours in the 60's.

The 6AU6 tube was not regarded as being a particularly HiFi tube.

The 6AU6 is being run at its maximum voltage so a Peltier heat exchanger element was designed by Sony and attached to the microphone body to increase the life of the tube.

You can see the response of the capsule is typical of a good K67/87 capsule used in the U87 before the de-emphasis is added.

I have included a curve of the capsule that we use.

Neumann used a de-emphasis circuit that tamed the HF 4db above 10khz and 2db at 5khz. Sony used a similar capsule but did not use any de-emphasis to reduce the rise in the upper midrange giving the sound more "spark" than even a U87.

I called it "spark" because the microphone does not get as "edgy" as I anticipated but it is brighter in the upper midrange than our other offerings. The C800g is possibly a couple of db more sensitive than the CM800T as the capsule polarization voltage is around 65v for the C800G and 62v for the CM800T.

You can see the curve of our CK89 is similar to the Sony k67/87 type capsule.

Our circuit is true to the original design but I wanted a more reliable and quiet tube that ran cooler.

I designed the circuit around a GE/JAN military grade 5654W pentode that has a lower(180v) maximum plate voltage.

We run this tube conservatively at 125v. The slightly lower plate impedance of the 5654W can drive a 6.5:1 ratio transformer having 3db less loss than the transformer in the Sony C800G.

We also add a -10db pad option so the CM800T will handle over 6db more level overall than the C800G.

The C800G has over 19db more headroom than a U87ai.

The 5654w runs much cooler than the 6AU6 and will last longer.

We also added a FIG 8 option since we have a dual diaphragm capsule.

We have the circuit boards, tubes and capsule on hand.

We are just waiting for the black bodies which are 4-6 weeks out.

Once we have the final black bodies we will record some Hip/Hop and Rap vocals and post them on our site. Folks, who heard the two proto-type microphones at Namm were very excited that we had captured the essence of the C800G for $795.

Because we use the same circuit/tube in our CM48T, same body and tranformer then we just have to change the capsule and optimize the circuit for the 800T capsule. This allows us to build an 800g type microphone and sell it for $795.

We also improved the power supply regulation over the original C800g supply and we are using 1% resistors and 1% tolerance capacitors in the audio circuitry.

Today the quality of components and choice of components is better than it was when the C800G was originally designed.


Cheers, Dave Thomas
aamicrophones.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by hasntbeen ➑️
Just saw this online and am pretty excited about the prospect of owning this mic!

https://youtu.be/F8wHgv63KOo

Anyone have some more info??
Attached Thumbnails
Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-c-800g-frequency-response2.jpg   Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-sony_c800g_schematic.jpg   Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-cm800t.jpg  

Last edited by microphoneGuy; 20th July 2017 at 07:55 AM..
Old 20th July 2017
  #5
Lives for gear
 
sleepyhollos's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Seems interesting at the price. I'll be interested to see and hear the final product when it streets. Personally I don't care about it being true to a c800g aslong add it sounds good.

Cool
Old 20th July 2017 | Show parent
  #6
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800T

I just arranged to record a young RAP artist next week through the CM800T.

I don't have access to an C800G unless I fly to LA or Nashville.

I will put it up against a TLM103 for reference.

Like the C800G the CM800T will have the slight 2-3db lift in the 3-5khz presence area just like the U47 and C800g.

Like the C800g it has the extra 5db lift above 10khz.

The CM800T is designed like the C800G so that the extra lift up past 10khz will not cause the amplifier to go into distortion on the "SSS" sound without rolling out Hi's.

Cheers, Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyhollos ➑️
Seems interesting at the price. I'll be interested to see and hear the final product when it streets. Personally I don't care about it being true to a c800g aslong add it sounds good.

Cool
Old 21st July 2017 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Based on the 800g's frequency spectrum, it looks like a "Air Tight Frequency Compression Plastic Bag Space Saver". The CM800T might have left too much air in the bag.

Last edited by ctmixing; 21st July 2017 at 09:49 PM..
Old 22nd July 2017 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
foldback's Avatar
 
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by microphoneGuy ➑️

I will put it up against a TLM103 for reference.

Like the C800G the CM800T will have the slight 2-3db lift in the 3-5khz presence area just like the U47 and C800g.

Like the C800g it has the extra 5db lift above 10khz.

The CM800T is designed like the C800G so that the extra lift up past 10khz will not cause the amplifier to go into distortion on the "SSS" sound without rolling out Hi's.

Cheers, Dave
Might as well put it up against an SM7, a TLM 103 for reference is useless to me and it's generally one of the most hated microphones on GS. Of course opinions vary but it's not a mic that I care for.

Once again, I appeal for an independent lab frequency response test of the so-called C800 sound alike or whatever this is, it certainly is trodding on the C800 reputation.

I suppose it also depends on what C800 frequency response graph you're referencing and what pattern the mic is set too.

As I review the only C800 graphs in cardioid that I could locate from reputable sources I'm not seeing frequency response like you're ascribing to the C800.

I do see a big difference between the Chinese 67 capsules and where their high frequency peak occurs relative to the C800. The typical 67 style China capsule peaks at 15K and (uncompensated) sounds harsh to my ears. The C800 in cardioid peaks 4 dB at 10k and is back to flat at 15k.

I've heard lots of Chinese 67 style capsules that just sound nasty but I've not heard a C800 sound nasty like that.

Independent lab testing would clear up these discussions and would not require a trip to LA or Nashville.

Good music to all!
Old 23rd July 2017
  #9
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Inorder to properly determine if this mic is a good clone it should be in a shootout against ONLY the c800g! Anything else would be a waste of R&D and our time
Old 18th August 2017 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800T

I agree. However, I don't have access to an 800G here in Western Canada. I have arranged with our client Joseph Magee who has been scoring at Oceanway Studios in Nashville to compare the CM800T to the C800G that they have there. Joseph will perform a shootout and shoot a video for us.

We expect to have the first run of production CM800T microphones here in the next 2-3 weeks and will be sending one of those to Joseph in Nashville.

Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com

who
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmixing ➑️
Inorder to properly determine if this mic is a good clone it should be in a shootout against ONLY the c800g! Anything else would be a waste of R&D and our time
Old 19th August 2017
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
very cool, looking forward to that shootout!
Old 28th August 2017 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by microphoneGuy ➑️
I agree. However, I don't have access to an 800G here in Western Canada. I have arranged with our client Joseph Magee who has been scoring at Oceanway Studios in Nashville to compare the CM800T to the C800G that they have there. Joseph will perform a shootout and shoot a video for us.

We expect to have the first run of production CM800T microphones here in the next 2-3 weeks and will be sending one of those to Joseph in Nashville.

Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com

who
Are you saying that the CM800T was created to be similar to the c800g even though you did not purchase or rent one so that you could compare it during the R&D stage?
Old 28th August 2017 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
deuc647's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmixing ➑️
Are you saying that the CM800T was created to be similar to the c800g even though you did not purchase or rent one so that you could compare it during the R&D stage?
I was actually gonna bring this up as well. Not saying it wont be similar but cant really call it close based on curves because they look the same no?
Old 28th August 2017
  #14
SEED78
Guest
Understandable not having a Sony to hand for a audio shoutout - not understandable if one wasn't to hand during product development for reference. Curves never tell the whole story.

Put those digits on your product name and it needs to sound like the real deal. Not, 'it's now for a sale I'll let you know what my friends think of it later'.

I remember emailing one mic company to ask about their 251 clone (not AA), I asked how close it sounded to a real vintage 251, he said he didn't really know... So I decided against dropping dropping 1k in that mic!!
Old 28th August 2017
  #15
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Hey guys....
If you question a designer designing a mic without hearing one.... Maybe try questioning your critiques before hearing one.

Classic GS!
Old 29th August 2017 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
deuc647's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen ➑️
Hey guys....
If you question a designer designing a mic without hearing one.... Maybe try questioning your critiques before hearing one.

Classic GS!
Designing no, cloning yes. So i dont get your point.
Old 29th August 2017
  #17
Deleted b5658d5
Guest
Wow, gs never fails to have the most blatantly arrogant and condescending responses to a simple post.
Old 29th August 2017 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
spambot_2's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen ➑️
If you question a designer designing a mic without hearing one.... Maybe try questioning your critiques before hearing one.
Well, Mr. Thomas was saying how the C-800G uses a relatively simple circuit, and how he could make a mic that sounds pretty much the same using different components and how the mic he designed is even technically better than the C-800G, having a higher output level, less noise, more polar patterns and so on, and he said his mic is supposed to sound like - and still be better than the C-800G in some ways.

All this kinda seems moot when he, in fact, hasn't compared the sound of his mic to the C-800G's.
Surely, seeing his reputation, he will have designed a good sounding mic based on the C-800G circuit and sound, but to sell a product with its selling point being that it sounds like another mic, before having compared it to said other mic - so without being sure it actually sounds like said other mic, looks kind of optimistic to me.

I don't mean this as a critique, if Mr. Thomas' business practices work, then good for him, I meant this as to clear up why the skepticism here is very much justified imo.
Old 29th August 2017
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
I really think it's a bit early to start making assumptions about what comparisons have or have not been done when the designer hasn't had a chance to respond to the question yet!

All that's been stated is he doesn't have access to one in Western Canada - there's several plausible explanations.

Maybe he did all the design and testing in a workshop elsewhere?
Maybe he has colleagues who handle those tasks elsewhere?
Maybe he had one shipped for use in the design stage and has returned it?
And yes, maybe it hasn't been compared?

But maybe wait to hear from the manufacturer!
Old 29th August 2017 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by spambot_2 ➑️
Well, Mr. Thomas was saying how the C-800G uses a relatively simple circuit, and how he could make a mic that sounds pretty much the same using different components and how the mic he designed is even technically better than the C-800G, having a higher output level, less noise, more polar patterns and so on, and he said his mic is supposed to sound like - and still be better than the C-800G in some ways.

All this kinda seems moot when he, in fact, hasn't compared the sound of his mic to the C-800G's.
Surely, seeing his reputation, he will have designed a good sounding mic based on the C-800G circuit and sound, but to sell a product with its selling point being that it sounds like another mic, before having compared it to said other mic - so without being sure it actually sounds like said other mic, looks kind of optimistic to me.

I don't mean this as a critique, if Mr. Thomas' business practices work, then good for him, I meant this as to clear up why the skepticism here is very much justified imo.
Agreed, moot was my point.
I was just pointing out that so is all the skepticism until one is heard.
Hell, I'd think people who can judge mics without hearing them would be all over a designer who designs without hearing his goal. Seems philosophically aligned.
Old 11th September 2017 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800T

Hello guys, our European partner Mike Jones took a CM800T prototype back with him to Europe. They just put it up against a C800G in a studio in Germany.
Here are the preliminary results.

"So Greatfull! Today we are the first one, who can test the new Microphone from Advanced Audio. The "CM800T" Tube Microphone got the same sound and quality like the Sony C800G. We did a 1 on 1 comparison, it's really amazing!"

Mike is trying to get some sound files from BizzyMo in Europe.

We only have two CM800T "prototypes" on hand and we are waiting for more of the black bodies to arrive next week. We expect to have a few production CM800T microphones together before my 70th birthday which is September 19th. One of these is going down to an LA Studio used primarlly for RAP/HIP-HOP who have an C800G and another down to Oceanway Studios in Nashville who also have a C800G.

Now, I have heard a C800G and I have repaired a C800G before I just don't have access to one here in Western Canada to bring back to our Studios for comparison.

However, we just found that Bryan Adam's Warehouse studios in Vancouver has a C800G and we have been invited down to put our C800T against their C800G.
We will schedule a visit to Vancouver once the finished bodies arrive later this month.

We didn't just blindly guess at the sound and response of the C800G. We consulted with many professionals like John Smeltz and Joseph Magee who have used these on major artists and Brian Fox who runs all our response curves. Brian has also ran his own curves and comparison tests on the capsule we use compared to the original Sony capsule.
Brian wrote a really revealing post on "de-constructing" the C800G.

Brian and I have neary 100 year of experience between us servicing and designing tube circuits and repairing microphones.

Its busy time here at Advanced Audio Microphones. We have been nominated for two Grammy Tech awards one for our CM48T microphone and one for our MT8016 preamp.

We just got this picture from our good friend Joe Carrell in Nashville where he was recording John Oates with our CM47 microphone.

We are really excited that we can provide working musicians, engineers and producers a microphones that will compare more than favourably to the C800G but will sell for 1/10th the price plus have higher tolerance components.

Thanks again to BizzyMo for taking the time to compare the CM800T and the C800G and to all the supporters of Advanced Audio and direct on-line sales.

Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com




Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGreen ➑️
Agreed, moot was my point.
I was just pointing out that so is all the skepticism until one is heard.
Hell, I'd think people who can judge mics without hearing them would be all over a designer who designs without hearing his goal. Seems philosophically aligned.
Attached Thumbnails
Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-john-oates-cm47ve.jpg  
Old 12th September 2017
  #22
Lives for gear
 
deuc647's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Looking forward to hearing these Dave
Old 12th September 2017
  #23
Lives for gear
 
heraldo_jones's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
joining to the thread, looks good how close it could be at that price. Freq graph looks quite different.
Old 12th September 2017
  #24
Gear Maniac
Good luck to you.

I'm sure it can be done if someone gives it a real focus. but so many that try do one C800g clone than stop. They never come back n improve on it. But they'll have 3 versions of a 47.

The tube "compression" aspect of the C800g was something that has been overlooked in the previous clone attempts I've heard.
Old 16th September 2017
  #25
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
@ microphoneGuy

Doing a shootout after the fact seems sketchy.
Old 16th September 2017 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800G vs CM800T

I am not sure how you perform a shootout without building a microphone first.

What we know about the C800G is:-

its a simple single plate output circuit designed around a 6AU6 pentode wired as a triode with cathode bias, no de-emphasis and a K67 type capsule.

The Sony curve shows a typical K67 (6 micron skinned) hi res response curve.

Cheers, Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmixing ➑️
@ microphoneGuy

Doing a shootout after the fact seems sketchy.
Old 17th September 2017 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
CM800T vs C800g

Hello, thanks for your comments.

The only compression going on with the C800G is "natural" compression that you get from any single stage plate output tube circuit.

I have included the C800G schematic showing how simple the circuit is.

The C800G circuit has been used in many other microphone designs.
You would only get this "compression" effect on very loud passages.

This is when the circuit has to handle a current draw of about 7.5 ma which is .0075 of an amp. However, even the unregulated Sony supply should supply this without presenting any significant artifacts if all the filters are good.

The supply can load down a bit but it would be very subtle to hear any reduction in the average level.

What the C800G has going for is that the plate supply is up over 200v dc.

It has 4-5db more headroom than most tube circuits because it can swing more voltage from the power supply.

However, with the 5654W circuit. We can drive a 6.5:1 ratio transformer instead of the 9:1 ratio used in the Sony 800G which gives us 3db less loss.

So, the Sony ends up with 2-3db more headroom best case.

I added a -10db pad to our CM800T so we can get 6db more headroom overall than the C800G if required.

Once I get our first run of CM800T microphones in a couple of weeks. We have been give a estimated delivery time in the first week of October.

I will experiment with running the 5654W up at 180v which will give it another 3db more headroom which seems handy when you use a K67 type capsule with its 5-6db rise above 10khz.

However, so far with tests we haven't found it necessary to use the pad on high energy RAP and Hip Hop.

We also have been trying two different output transformers.
I like the 6.5:1 BV8 which has iron windings like the 800g transformer because it sounded warmer to my old ears.

But Mike has two prototypes in Europe one with the BV8 and one with the BV18 which has the more modern Bi-metal laminations.

Mike has put them both up against an C800g and he believes the BV18 version sounds more similar to the C800g in Europe than our BV8 version.
Mike is my European partner in Advanced Audio.

Its no problem for us to customize the CM800T microphones if folks want the "warmer" BV8 option or the more "modern" BV18 option.

I also feel the Jan/GE 5654w tube is a better choice for a microphone circuit. These tubes are military quality and still used today in aircraft like the C130.

The 6AU6 always seemed like an odd choice to me as that was the tube used in pedestrian tube mantle radios sold in the 50's and 60's.

I use to fix mantle radios in the 60's for neighbors with usually a tube change.

Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com





Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut ➑️
Good luck to you.

I'm sure it can be done if someone gives it a real focus. but so many that try do one C800g clone than stop. They never come back n improve on it. But they'll have 3 versions of a 47.

The tube "compression" aspect of the C800g was something that has been overlooked in the previous clone attempts I've heard.
Attached Thumbnails
Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-cm800t-show-model-sm.jpg   Advanced Audio CM800T (AA's take on Sony C800G)-sony_c800g_schematic.jpg  
Old 20th September 2017
  #28
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Hey Dave,
Any idea when this mic is available for purchase in Europe ?

Thanks
Will

Last edited by Will1970; 20th September 2017 at 10:51 AM.. Reason: corrected the question
Old 29th September 2017 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Maniac
When will the microphone be available?

Quote:
Originally Posted by microphoneGuy ➑️
Hello, thanks for your comments.

The only compression going on with the C800G is "natural" compression that you get from any single stage plate output tube circuit.

I have included the C800G schematic showing how simple the circuit is.

The C800G circuit has been used in many other microphone designs.
You would only get this "compression" effect on very loud passages.

This is when the circuit has to handle a current draw of about 7.5 ma which is .0075 of an amp. However, even the unregulated Sony supply should supply this without presenting any significant artifacts if all the filters are good.

The supply can load down a bit but it would be very subtle to hear any reduction in the average level.

What the C800G has going for is that the plate supply is up over 200v dc.

It has 4-5db more headroom than most tube circuits because it can swing more voltage from the power supply.

However, with the 5654W circuit. We can drive a 6.5:1 ratio transformer instead of the 9:1 ratio used in the Sony 800G which gives us 3db less loss.

So, the Sony ends up with 2-3db more headroom best case.

I added a -10db pad to our CM800T so we can get 6db more headroom overall than the C800G if required.

Once I get our first run of CM800T microphones in a couple of weeks. We have been give a estimated delivery time in the first week of October.

I will experiment with running the 5654W up at 180v which will give it another 3db more headroom which seems handy when you use a K67 type capsule with its 5-6db rise above 10khz.

However, so far with tests we haven't found it necessary to use the pad on high energy RAP and Hip Hop.

We also have been trying two different output transformers.
I like the 6.5:1 BV8 which has iron windings like the 800g transformer because it sounded warmer to my old ears.

But Mike has two prototypes in Europe one with the BV8 and one with the BV18 which has the more modern Bi-metal laminations.

Mike has put them both up against an C800g and he believes the BV18 version sounds more similar to the C800g in Europe than our BV8 version.
Mike is my European partner in Advanced Audio.

Its no problem for us to customize the CM800T microphones if folks want the "warmer" BV8 option or the more "modern" BV18 option.

I also feel the Jan/GE 5654w tube is a better choice for a microphone circuit. These tubes are military quality and still used today in aircraft like the C130.

The 6AU6 always seemed like an odd choice to me as that was the tube used in pedestrian tube mantle radios sold in the 50's and 60's.

I use to fix mantle radios in the 60's for neighbors with usually a tube change.

Cheers, Dave
aamicrophones.com
Old 30th September 2017 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Advanced Audio CM48T

Hi Guys, down with a terrible head cold but just got the news that a small shipment of 8-CM800T microphone metalwork, cases and power supplies are on the way by air.

We will have CM800T microphones built up, tested and ready to ship within the next 2 weeks and Mike in Europe will have some ready to ship before the end of October.

We have another sea shipment of 40 more bodies, headgrills, cases and power supplies arriving by the middle of November.

Cheers, Dave




Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut ➑️
When will the microphone be available?
πŸ“ Reply

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