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Who's Using Analog Summing...
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #541
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Avantmidi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I do and I will
Once I find a seconde 16 mk2 in mint condition!
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #542
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Patrick_'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi ➡️
I do and I will
Once I find a seconde 16 mk2 in mint condition!
I have a x16 for sale.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #543
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez ➡️
Mannnn you need a second Apollo in your life lol
Them last 8 want some action too!
I'm dying over here, you keep trying to get this man to fill his empty rack space. You must miss having some free rack space LOL. You and Paul G. with these 1st world Gearslutz problems LOL.

Argosy sidecars were like $600(haven't checked in a bit) but you know how you do with them 4RU monsters that'll turn into $15K fast. I like my 500 series lust ... just got my Wesaudio RHEA and a couple Diones/Mimas/Titan on the way, might go ahead and get the Bettermaker Limiter to be ALL DONE with it ...

More pics coming with all the upgrades and got tracking on my SPL DMC too ...
Attached Thumbnails
Who's Using Analog Summing...-20220129_030647.jpg  
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #544
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Avantmidi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick_ ➡️
I have a x16 for sale.
I want a second 16MK2 to match.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #545
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi ➡️
I want a second 16MK2 to match.
I'm not sure where you're based, but I've just listed one.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #546
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Skamm Goodiez's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
I'm dying over here, you keep trying to get this man to fill his empty rack space. You must miss having some free rack space LOL. You and Paul G. with these 1st world Gearslutz problems LOL.

Argosy sidecars were like $600(haven't checked in a bit) but you know how you do with them 4RU monsters that'll turn into $15K fast. I like my 500 series lust ... just got my Wesaudio RHEA and a couple Diones/Mimas/Titan on the way, might go ahead and get the Bettermaker Limiter to be ALL DONE with it ...

More pics coming with all the upgrades and got tracking on my SPL DMC too ...
Hahaha

That Wesaudio lust is real
Im getting me a rack real soon... Them busses need some love
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #547
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez ➡️
Hahaha

That Wesaudio lust is real
Im getting me a rack real soon... Them busses need some love
Yeah I need 1 more Dione to rock 4 stereo busses how I planned. I'm close ... ideally I wanted 4 Prometheuses also to upgrade my Tonelux TILT8 EQ bus chain but reality set in(resources LOL).

Thought about doing 8 Chop Shop 500 EQs but if I can do that I can go all Promethei(sounds right) kinda overkill but who knows maybe one day. You'll probably F around n beat me to it.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #548
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
Yeah I need 1 more Dione to rock 4 stereo busses how I planned. I'm close ... ideally I wanted 4 Prometheuses also to upgrade my Tonelux TILT8 EQ bus chain but reality set in(resources LOL).

Thought about doing 8 Chop Shop 500 EQs but if I can do that I can go all Promethei(sounds right) kinda overkill but who knows maybe one day. You'll probably F around n beat me to it.
How is the Dione on the stereo image? SSL buss comps that don’t have dual mono detection, like the Dione, usually shrink the stereo image. I know the WesAudio ngBus has dual mono. I currently use an Obsidian but was looking to take the plunge. Currently my plan is to grab the Dione, ngBus, and Bettemaker Mastering Comp for a week and keep the one I prefer.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #549
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blayz2002's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut2 ➡️
How is the Dione on the stereo image? SSL buss comps that don’t have dual mono detection, like the Dione, usually shrink the stereo image. I know the WesAudio ngBus has dual mono. I currently use an Obsidian but was looking to take the plunge. Currently my plan is to grab the Dione, ngBus, and Bettemaker Mastering Comp for a week and keep the one I prefer.
I’ve been using a Dione on my stereo bus chain (currently D-Box+ summing > Fusion > Dione (in the Fusion Pre-EQ insert slot) for more than a year. It definitely does not shrink the stereo image. If anything I think it slightly enhances it.
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #550
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Skamm Goodiez's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 ➡️
I’ve been using a Dione on my stereo bus chain (currently D-Box+ summing > Fusion > Dione (in the Fusion Pre-EQ insert slot) for more than a year. It definitely does not shrink the stereo image. If anything I think it slightly enhances it.
PERFREAKINFECT!
Old 29th January 2022 | Show parent
  #551
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrammynOut2 ➡️
How is the Dione on the stereo image? SSL buss comps that don’t have dual mono detection, like the Dione, usually shrink the stereo image. I know the WesAudio ngBus has dual mono. I currently use an Obsidian but was looking to take the plunge. Currently my plan is to grab the Dione, ngBus, and Bettemaker Mastering Comp for a week and keep the one I prefer.
I haven't got my Diones yet just ordered them. I don't anticipate a problem though I know a couple users that love em. The Dramastic you got I've heard definitely enhances the stereo image.

Currently using the Bettermaker C502V on my 2 Bus and I love the F outta that wish I bought more when they made em. That's kinda a precursor to the Mastering Comp does the 3 in 1 comp modes, dual mono, M/S, de-essing, expansion etc. I'm thinking of moving that to my drum bus where currently I got an Xpressor 500(I don't wanna sell it love it too but plugin recall and funding more stuff is trumping it now).

I think you should like the BIg Bettermaker(I believe it's even got the odd even color mode from the Limiter)
I've used my 500 series even in mastering; that ng Comp saturation circuit looks tasty too but Bettermaker's modes aren't a gimmick they come in handy IMO.
Old 30th January 2022 | Show parent
  #552
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Avantmidi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Xtra love for the NGizlle Buss
Old 30th January 2022 | Show parent
  #553
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🎧 15 years
Any report of users of the Thermionic Fat Bustard ?
Does it really bring something special to your mix ?
Cheers
Sergio
Old 30th January 2022
  #554
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Currently summing through an Alice 828 mk3
Drumbus through 1-2 (EQ) and bass 3. Then five stereo busses: Vocals, backing vocals, guitars, synths+VSTs and "the rest". Can't resist hitting that lovely limiter either! Quite often use aux sends as well, outboard FX rather than doing it in the box.
Old 15th February 2022 | Show parent
  #555
7+1
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergioelectro ➡️
Any report of users of the Thermionic Fat Bustard ?
Does it really bring something special to your mix ?
Cheers
Sergio
Had one for 4 years... and loved it. It does what its called. FAT. But doesn't work on everything. In fact for my taste it only worked on 25 percent of the material i mixed at the time. An amazing sounding tube summing mixer, but really a super fingerprint sound if thick and warm is too much.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #556
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Skamm Goodiez's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi ➡️
Xtra love for the NGizlle Buss
how's the headroom?
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #557
Deleted 9d88367
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering ➡️
It’s not about transformers either, it’s about people reading something and then thinking a plugin does the same, or remotely the same, or closely the same, just because they read it on the internet.
People can only “experience” once they’ve “experienced”
Loading a plugin on a daw without ever having worked on a real desk, doesn’t count as “experience”
And proper desk imho is a real analogue physical desk, not a channelstrip plugin in your daw.
All you said sounds rational. And I understand it. Now..without sounding controversial may I ask you :

If you think a plugin with proper function mimicking (or trying to) what is happening in a summing box - can not do the same, it's not even remotely or closely same then:

1. Why is it so hard for everyone to hear such a big difference? Why is that the case? If a difference is so huge and beneficial why is it so hard to point it out?

2. On the other hand, if the difference is so huge, why do you think it can not be measurable and repeatable in different systems (digital)?

3. From what you said it sounds like you think people who never experienced real console sound (what's the definition of that anyway) do not have a saying in this. Ok seems fair. However, what if there are people out there (and you know there are) which have experienced real console summing, worked on it, shifted to ITB only, uses "plastic calculation" plugin and make tons of top selling grammy tracks without a summing console and their take on this is that plugins can do the same - are they also wrong?

Note that for sure I am not advocating plugins or stirring fire it just sounds very conservative and closed minded if I put myself in your perspective but that's just me interpreting your view of course.

I was always puzzled by this phenomenon. In fact I have a limited DSP system which for some reason spit out something I like over my native mixer - both are digital and I don't understand why one is better than the other but I am guessing it's because of a different workflow approach.

My last stance in overthinking about this "analogue summing" phenomena is kinda silly but it goes like this:

Take the best analogue mixed/summed/processed album. It goes on CD. I guess we won't debate and it's no question that the spirit of a summing is captured equally. Track is fine.

But now it's digital and on CD. It is made from analogue into the digital realm thus it becomes a stream of numbers which are then interpreted and translated in your CD player and played on your speakers. But essentially those are streams of ones and zeroes - literally.

So in a nutshell it's a lot of digital data. Numbers. 1 and 0.

My question is: why do people think computers are not able to generate such a stream of numbers, which may sound equally convincing and sound just as good if not better?

Seems really close minded.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #558
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez ➡️
how's the headroom?
Oddly the same as the Dione by the specs(+24dbu) which shocked me. Bettermaker did this also with their now defunct 500 series they were the same as the rack units.

The Big Wes Comp got the choice transformers or not, fully variable saturation circuit and does dual mono outside of that it's a 3RU Dione IMO.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #559
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by barada ➡️
All you said sounds rational. And I understand it. Now..without sounding controversial may I ask you :

If you think a plugin with proper function mimicking (or trying to) what is happening in a summing box - can not do the same, it's not even remotely or closely same then:

1. Why is it so hard for everyone to hear such a big difference? Why is that the case? If a difference is so huge and beneficial why is it so hard to point it out?

2. On the other hand, if the difference is so huge, why do you think it can not be measurable and repeatable in different systems (digital)?

3. From what you said it sounds like you think people who never experienced real console sound (what's the definition of that anyway) do not have a saying in this. Ok seems fair. However, what if there are people out there (and you know there are) which have experienced real console summing, worked on it, shifted to ITB only, uses "plastic calculation" plugin and make tons of top selling grammy tracks without a summing console and their take on this is that plugins can do the same - are they also wrong?

Note that for sure I am not advocating plugins or stirring fire it just sounds very conservative and closed minded if I put myself in your perspective but that's just me interpreting your view of course.

I was always puzzled by this phenomenon. In fact I have a limited DSP system which for some reason spit out something I like over my native mixer - both are digital and I don't understand why one is better than the other but I am guessing it's because of a different workflow approach.

My last stance in overthinking about this "analogue summing" phenomena is kinda silly but it goes like this:

Take the best analogue mixed/summed/processed album. It goes on CD. I guess we won't debate and it's no question that the spirit of a summing is captured equally. Track is fine.

But now it's digital and on CD. It is made from analogue into the digital realm thus it becomes a stream of numbers which are then interpreted and translated in your CD player and played on your speakers. But essentially those are streams of ones and zeroes - literally.

So in a nutshell it's a lot of digital data. Numbers. 1 and 0.

My question is: why do people think computers are not able to generate such a stream of numbers, which may sound equally convincing and sound just as good if not better?

Seems really close minded.
You can argue the theory of something and you do a good job of it I'll say yet still be far from the reality of it IMO. You just have to experience the summing vs ITB difference in your space(material you know well and on good monitoring) but they're there. There's also alot of variables like the front end/back end analog chains, skill of the mixer etc.. that come into play in the ITB vs OTB argument(I'll expound on this last).

To me it's seperation, everything sits in it's own space better, usually increased headroom and somehow sound just feels effortless(it's hard to explain)/slightly more pleasing. This is my interpretation on a good neutral sounding summing system now throw in transformers of course and you get that mojo going on(API style or Neve style etc). Summing affects mix decisions as well like 2 bus processing so that's a variable to consider also.

There's an engineer that's appered on Produce Like A Pro a couple times forget his name ... but his tag line is "I'm 100% ITB" whilst standing next to a rack with well over $30K of studio staples he tracks through every session alongside a console. Sure he's ITB but not the same as the average beginner bedroom studio guy. He's only "ITB" come mix time with plugins.

Last edited by ucanhatemenow; 16th February 2022 at 10:26 AM.. Reason: He's only "ITB" ...
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #560
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7+1 ➡️
Had one for 4 years... and loved it. It does what its called. FAT. But doesn't work on everything. In fact for my taste it only worked on 25 percent of the material i mixed at the time. An amazing sounding tube summing mixer, but really a super fingerprint sound if thick and warm is too much.
Hello and thank you for posting your experience

25 pourcent only of the material only ? is the color so pronounced ?
I heard it could be clear also if you do not push it hard
I am doing EDM and house music, and look for a fat summing unit.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Regards
Sergio
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #561
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zvukofor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by barada ➡️
My question is: why do people think computers are not able to generate such a stream of numbers, which may sound equally convincing and sound just as good if not better?

Seems really close minded.
Not advocating analog summing, but:
modern (personal) computers cannot calculate a highly nonlinear behavior fast enough, even if programmers can describe such behavior (they cannot).

Computers can calculate some of the (simplified) nonlinearities fast, and it will be close enough to what we need in audio. We simply don’t need all of them in our job. Guitar amps? - well, that’s different case, but... sometimes (often) we’re happy with rough models for some types of guitar sound... is it 1:1 to analog? - no, and sometimes you can hear it.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #562
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Avantmidi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
Oddly the same as the Dione by the specs(+24dbu) which shocked me. Bettermaker did this also with their now defunct 500 series they were the same as the rack units.

The Big Wes Comp got the choice transformers or not, fully variable saturation circuit and does dual mono outside of that it's a 3RU Dione IMO.
Yep. But with some proper gain staging there is nothing wrong at all. It's got plugin recall after all!
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #563
Deleted 9d88367
Guest
I like your comment. I am not interested in guitar amps, that's another can altogether. Speaking of summing here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor ➡️
Not advocating analog summing, but:
modern (personal) computers cannot calculate a highly nonlinear behavior fast enough
I really want to explore further. I want to understand why you said that. Please tell me where did you learn that modern personal computer cannot calculate nonlinear behavior fast enough? Is there some book explaining it? Where's the scale? How far are we? I am mostly curious about the "fast enough" as in my mind that sounds like there is some speed which computers can not match. If there's speed involved then there must be some value? No?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor ➡️
even if programmers can describe such behavior (they cannot).
How do you know, how can you claim that? There must be some book or something? Some source? You must be programmer or?

Yeah I know I ask a lot, can you at least point me in the right direction? I honestly want to learn more about the subject. Assuming you are concrete in your arguments I am guessing there must be some resources for such basis.

update: forgot to say thanks for your comment and your time. Thank you!
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #564
Deleted 9d88367
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
To me it's seperation, everything sits in it's own space better, usually increased headroom and somehow sound just feels effortless(it's hard to explain)/slightly more pleasing. This is my interpretation on a good neutral sounding summing system now throw in transformers of course and you get that mojo going on(API style or Neve style etc).
All these characteristics you mentioned, I believe I understand what you are saying. But to me and in my world these are associated with good recording and good sources, good signal to begin with (in the lack of better description) and maybe signal processing like EQ - not mixer (or the summing of it). Surely pan helps in that but summing not that much (for me).

I thank you for your comment. It is a good read.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #565
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zvukofor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by barada ➡️
I like your comment. I am not interested in guitar amps, that's another can altogether. Speaking of summing here.



I really want to explore further. I want to understand why you said that. Please tell me where did you learn that modern personal computer cannot calculate nonlinear behavior fast enough? Is there some book explaining it? Where's the scale? How far are we?



How do you know, how can you claim that? There must be some book or something? Some source? You must be programmer or?

Yeah I know I ask a lot, can you at least point me in the right direction? I honestly want to learn more about the subject. Assuming you are concrete in your arguments I am guessing there must be some resources for such basis.

update: forgot to say thanks for your comment and your time. Thank you!
There’s no one simple answer. )
Almost any DSP paper that is written about modeling analog says this - complex nonlinear behavior is very hard thing to do. Partially because we cannot describe all with a math - it becomes very, very complicated really fast, and yet it is not 1:1 to the source we try to model. Even “black box” method is heavy enough - look at the simplified Volterra kernels in Acoustica Auduo - eat a lot of CPU, and it is a simplified model. Ever heard of SPICE? - engineers use it to model/test electronic circuits. No “realtime”, not even close to it...and it is hugely simplified compared to real electronic circuits.

Back to summing:
i really want to know too, what people usually like it for, on a scientific plane, that’s why i’m trying to translate from artistic language to engineering terms...
added noise? - maybe, maybe not.

Channel imbalance? - but there’re “summing mixers” (nice oxymoron) that can exclude imbalance by using precision resistors and matched caps...

The only thing left in this equation is nonlinear effects, but some people swear on using “more clean” than digital summing mixing consoles...

I really know that when using big mixing desk for, err, mixing, it is a complex effect - “more 3d” from channel imbalances, small nonlinearities here and there are for “glue” and “fat”, and the workflow that is great for making decisions fast and semi-intuitive.

But what about summing with very clean analog summing mixer? - can’t say. Different dither patterns on every DA output? - can do it ITB too... so what it is?
I have not experienced any difference in such cases except higher noise levels.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #566
Deleted 9d88367
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor ➡️
There’s no one simple answer. )
Almost any DSP paper that is written about modeling analog says this - complex nonlinear behavior is very hard thing to do. Partially because we cannot describe all with a math - it becomes very, very complicated really fast, and yet it is not 1:1 to the source we try to model. Even “black box” method is heavy enough - look at the simplified Volterra kernels in Acoustica Auduo - eat a lot of CPU, and it is a simplified model. Ever heard of SPICE? - engineers use it to model/test electronic circuits. No “realtime”, not even close to it...and it is hugely simplified compared to real electronic circuits.

Back to summing:
i really want to know too, what people usually like it for, on a scientific plane, that’s why i’m trying to translate from artistic language to engineering terms...
added noise? - maybe, maybe not.

Channel imbalance? - but there’re “summing mixers” (nice oxymoron) that can exclude imbalance by using precision resistors and matched caps...

The only thing left in this equation is nonlinear effects, but some people swear on using “more clean” than digital summing mixing consoles...

I really know that when using big mixing desk for, err, mixing, it is a complex effect - “more 3d” from channel imbalances, small nonlinearities here and there are for “glue” and “fat”, and the workflow that is great for making decisions fast and semi-intuitive.

But what about summing with very clean analog summing mixer? - can’t say. Different dither patterns on every DA output? - can do it ITB too... so what it is?
I have not experienced any difference in such cases except higher noise levels.
Thank you. All I can say without sounding silly is for sure this is fascinating topic in itself!
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #567
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi ➡️
Yep. But with some proper gain staging there is nothing wrong at all. It's got plugin recall after all!
Nothing wrong at all Dione is a great piece itself. I just assumed looking at the size of the ngComp it would have at least a couple db more headroom but it's very well featured. I can definitely see why you and others went for it makes life easier using less gear to reach your sonic goals. The VCAs I think are better or there's more of them, something like that ...
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #568
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Skamm Goodiez's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
There's an engineer that's appered on Produce Like A Pro a couple times forget his name ... but his tag line is "I'm 100% ITB" whilst standing next to a rack with well over $30K of studio staples he tracks through every session alongside a console. Sure he's ITB but not the same as the average beginner bedroom studio guy. He's only "ITB" come mix time with plugins.
The audio version of "the big lie". I hate when the plugin stans come up with that to defend their point but not understanding the difference between tracking with their interface vs tracking with the most expensive and exotic tools on earth.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #569
Lives for gear
 
Skamm Goodiez's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucanhatemenow ➡️
Nothing wrong at all Dione is a great piece itself. I just assumed looking at the size of the ngComp it would have at least a couple db more headroom but it's very well featured. I can definitely see why you and others went for it makes life easier using less gear to reach your sonic goals. The VCAs I think are better or there's more of them, something like that ...
Im sorta making the same kinda transition. I got the big 3 from Bettermaker and experimenting with this and the Sigmas. Fully recalling an analog mix in 30 seconds is EXTRA satisfying.
Old 16th February 2022 | Show parent
  #570
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 9d88367 ➡️
Thank you. All I can say without sounding silly is for sure this is fascinating topic in itself!
I went down the summing rabbit hole and from my perspective.. yes there are slight differences and dsp is not there yet but it will be sooner or later. The differences are so small that the a league of ME´s doesn't care, so neither should I.

A lot from what I was reading is "hey but I can hear a difference!" and I understand, I mean how would you react when you were spending a fortune for gear wich becomes almost worthless as everything is possible ITB too?

Hardware is sexy but it becomes more and more nostalgic, unfortunately or fortunately. Choose your side.

..my 2 cents
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