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using dangerous w/logic
Old 5th October 2002
  #1
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
using dangerous w/logic

hello ppl! i use lap 5.3 for mixing on a mac n i want to use the dangerous 2buss lt w/it. the thing is, i need quality 16ch output from logic to the 2buss. can u guys please help me ? i want to run my lap sessions at 96kHz. thanks
Old 5th October 2002
  #2
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
hmmm...

Metric halo interface?

er...

Anyone?

Is the D16 from Apogee Firewire compatable yet?
Old 5th October 2002
  #3
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
hey jules ! it's ur posts that turned me onto the dangerous 2buss. so do u think i can benefit from using the 2buss ? just making sure.... i've been doing quite a research for few days on the net, n i'm leaning towards this direction. tell me what u think ....
lap 5.3 on mac -> motu mk3 (16chs of tdif) ->
apogee da16 (no it doesn't do firewire) -> dangerous 2buss (do u think there is a big difference between the dagerous2buss n the dagerous 2buss lt ?) also jules, say i want to insert a comp on a vox track between the apogee da16 n the dangerous 2buss, n have done volume automation on the vox track inside my daw. wouldn't that cause a problem since the vox automation is before the comp ?
Old 6th October 2002
  #4
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Sure all DAW rides are pre outboard but once you learn to work with that it is cool.

I will often route back into the DAW a double of the final vocal sound and use THAT to send to reverbs / FX etc.. It's weird sending from a foggy unprocessed sound and that way the effects are TRULY "post fader".

Your combo sounds very cool if you want to avoid a traditional mixing console.

I didnt understand this part "do u think there is a big difference between the dagerous2buss n the dagerous 2buss lt "

Please explain

Old 6th October 2002
  #5
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
oh i meant between their two models. u know they have the original dangerous 2bus n the new cheaper 1 rack space dangerous 2bus lt.
Old 6th October 2002
  #6
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
ONE RACKSPACE!!



Sounds cool!



I dunno the quallity diff, what do they say?

Jules
Old 6th October 2002
  #7
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
also by doing some more research i've came up w/this combo :
96k session of lap5.3 on g4 -> 2X rme hdsp9652 (4 adat optical running at 96kHz mode) -> apogee da16 -> dangerous 2bus or the inward connection sbm-2 -> avalon 747 -> cranesong hedd (w/tape saturation) -> back to 2trks of logic at 96k. thanks jules for the influence now only if i can get some comparisons between the dangerous 2bus n the inward connection.....
Old 6th October 2002
  #8
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Sounds cool!

Old 6th October 2002
  #9
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
between the two dangerous models, as u can see on their web site, the specs r better for the 2 rack space 2buss. also the ppl that went to the aes said that the original 2bus is better sounding.
Old 6th October 2002
  #10
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Ar har!

I seeeeeee..

Old 7th October 2002
  #11
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
hey jules one more ? how r u splitting ur final vocal sound so that u can route it back into ur daw ? just regula line splitter ?
Old 8th October 2002
  #12
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
dangerous

Hey Jules,
I did some mastering with Calbi a few weeks ago.
I mentioned that I was putting a new place together (almost done). He told me about the Dangerous 2 buss and let me hear it. I was blown away. He explained that the designer was his head tech and introduced me to Chris. Needless to say, I purchased their remaining 2 buss on the spot. I then bought the Dangerous Monitor for routing and inserts. They're building me a small line mixer
that will interface with the 2 buss and also building a talkback/headphone/meter module.
No more console! Sounds incredible. I A/Bd it
for Chris Huston and he was floored by the image and detail. I trust his ears (He did 'Groovin'as well as Led ZepII and all the War stuff) I think he'll be recommending it from now on. Good call!
Chapster
Old 8th October 2002
  #13
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
"hey Jules one more ? how r u splitting ur final vocal sound so that u can route it back into ur daw ? just regular line splitter ?"

A "mult" or "parallel" I have 4 on my patch bay. Patch one signal in and get 4 out (if you need them)

Jules
Old 8th October 2002
  #14
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
or try Little Labs PCP
chap
Old 8th October 2002
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
" I A/Bd it
for Chris Huston and he was floored by the image and detai"

Ok guys....how but someone put up some A/B wavs so we can all hear...to me it is a very odd concept to send everthing out and in through this thingy...

rollz lez do this rollz
Old 9th October 2002
  #16
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
howdy ehter

From the looks of your post, you're in NYC?
If so, call Bob at Dangerous music and have him give you a demo. It's quite simple and quite amazing. Oh, and bring your checkbookyuktyy 'cause once you hear it....you're gonna buy it.

cheers,
chap
Old 9th October 2002
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
yes I am in nyc but I don't plan on buying one anytime soon...but I have a digi 192 and I just put a bid in for a used a/d expansion...but if I think I need this thing eventually than I rather get a d/a expanion which will give me 16 d/a total...
Old 9th October 2002
  #18
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
this is a post from digidesign forum about how dangerous ppl had the comparison set-up at the aes.

"I was determined to listen with an open mind and patiently waited until I could have the rep's complete attention. He played a multi-track PT session of a drum kit recording, and we listened to the summed-in-Protools stereo output and compared that with the individual outputs going to the D2B and being summed there. It was coming out of their monitor box and with a single finger I could toggle between the 2 mixes. The difference was readily apparent. The D2B mix was fuller, deeper and more convincing. The Protools mix seemed flat and relatively lifeless. The rep told me that as everyone knew , the PT mix bus sucked and this fixed it. (Ah, thank you Dr. Science!)

But here's where it gets more interesting. I asked him to solo the kick drum. Oddly enough, there was still a big difference, even though there was no summing going on. He said it had something to do with center-panning ****ing up the sound or changing the level (I didn't understand him), so I had him pan it all the way to one side. "There was still a difference, with the D2B kick sounding better in the same way. But, now follow closely, as I was asking him how this was all set up it turns out that there were two different D/A converters being used here. The summed PT mix was being outputted by a "****" converter (I forget the name). I was assured that it was a very accurate high-end, transparent converter. IRONICALLY, the individual outputs from the session which were being summed by the D2B, were being fed by none other than the Protools converters themselves. And that's the one that sounded better!! I maintain that it's more likely that they were simply demonstrating the difference between converters rather than the difference in summing. Any idiot can hear the differences between converters. Problems in summing math, OTOH, have been very tricky to demonstrate."


this is really dissapointing how a company like this conducted an inacurate comparison.
now what i want to know is , did anybody compare the dangerous 2bus to the daw buss in an acurate situation ?
Old 9th October 2002
  #19
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
"what i want to know is , did anybody compare the dangerous 2bus to the daw buss in an acurate situation ?"

I did before I bought mine. I had one on trial at my studio. We all prefered the analog summing over the digital.

Old 9th October 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
hmmm

I'm not sure that I understand the description of the AES demo but I've checked out the 2 Buss through
a Digi 192, Apogee 8000SEs and the Dangerous Monitor system (Troisi converters). In all cases
everyone present agreed that the 2 Buss vastly improved the sound and image. It should be easy to solo any instrument (via PT) and flip between analog and digital (via the Monitor).
My guess is that whoever demoed the unit may not be a PT guy. Chris Muth (the designer) has written a higly informative paper on "Mix Loss" that describes the various ways that mixing boards (Neve uses voltage, SSL uses current and DAWs use bits)
sum audio. By adding more channels (digital or analog) the headroom of the summing buss is lowered. The 2 Buss deals with this in a way that sounds better (my words, not his). Read his essay
and it will help to understand this whole thing. Listen to the box correctly and you will find it indespensable.
Old 9th October 2002
  #21
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: hmmm

Quote:
Originally posted by chap
I'm not sure that I understand the description of the AES demo but I've checked out the 2 Buss through
a Digi 192, Apogee 8000SEs and the Dangerous Monitor system (Troisi converters). In all cases
everyone present agreed that the 2 Buss vastly improved the sound and image. It should be easy to solo any instrument (via PT) and flip between analog and digital (via the Monitor).
My guess is that whoever demoed the unit may not be a PT guy. Chris Muth (the designer) has written a higly informative paper on "Mix Loss" that describes the various ways that mixing boards (Neve uses voltage, SSL uses current and DAWs use bits)
sum audio. By adding more channels (digital or analog) the headroom of the summing buss is lowered. The 2 Buss deals with this in a way that sounds better (my words, not his). Read his essay
and it will help to understand this whole thing. Listen to the box correctly and you will find it indespensable.
Yes, it should be easy to solo an instrument and compare the digital with the analog. We did, and the fact that there was still a difference told me that the reason was different converters, not summing. The guy giving the demo then tried to tell me it was the PT pan pot that was accounting for the difference. Sheesh.

That was me who posted the demo description, I am a Protools and analog tape user, and if you re-read what I wrote you should understand it, because I was quite clear. I have nothing against this box and I believe that for whatever reason the guys who use it are getting better mixes. But if it really is a good tool it pains me to see it come off like snake oil with these half-assed demos.

I'd love to read this paper about "mix loss" and have tried to get it from their site by downloading the manual. However, it is not included with that, and a note says that it will be forwarded to registered D2B users. Since you're a D2B user, Chap, perhaps you could post that paper here. Odd, it seems that the non-D2B users would benefit most from the analysis.

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 9th October 2002
  #22
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
paper

I'll see if I can get a copy. By way of apology, I'm in the middle of building diffusors and bass traps and wiring my new room so it could be a day or so. Also, this is the most simple box I own.

It should be easy to demo that's what has me a bit concerned. We'll get a copy for you.
cheers,
chap
Old 11th October 2002
  #23
Lives for gear
 
chap's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
any errors here are mine

This came to me in a format that forced me to edit
areas, punctuation etc....so any linguistic lapses are mine and not the authors. I also would prefer to email this to you but I don't have your addy so here goes.........
Old 11th October 2002
  #24
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: any errors here are mine

Quote:
Originally posted by chap
This came to me in a format that forced me to edit
areas, punctuation etc....so any linguistic lapses are mine and not the authors. I also would prefer to email this to you but I don't have your addy so here goes.........
Sorry, you can email me at [email protected].

thanks,
Rick
Old 11th October 2002
  #25
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
hi folks, this is from an email i got from bob at dangerous about differences between their two models.
" The differences between the 2-Bus and the LT are: the 2-Bus has a +6dB gain circuit for each input pair, the LT does not. The 2-Bus has a stepped attenuator output gain gontrol, the LT has a stereo potentiometer. They use different switches. The 2-Bus is 2RU with XLR ins and outs, the LT is 1RU with 25-pin D connectors for the inputs, and XLR outs.
There are a few differences in component choice and layout, but the basic circuit architecture and the amps we use are all the same. The LT employs more surface mount components than the D2B. They both spec out pretty respectably..... The 2-Bus performs slightly better, particularly for crosstalk at higher frequencies. As for the qualitative difference in sound, it is highly subjective - they both work great, and sound nearly identical."
Old 11th October 2002
  #26
Gear Head
 
Jakob's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Re: Re: any errors here are mine

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman


Sorry, you can email me at [email protected].

thanks,
Rick

Can I have a copy of it too, please?

[email protected]

Yours Jakob
πŸ“ Reply

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