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Micing a cab with a SM58 vs SM57
Old 10th November 2012
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Micing a cab with a SM58 vs SM57

Now Ive searched far and wide on the subject and for the most part people seem to come to the conclusion that the difference between the sm58 and sm57 is pretty small when micing guitar cabs. What Ive learned till now is that unscrewing the grill of the sm58 leaves you with pretty much a sm57, the only difference being the location of the membrane. I would like to ask:

* would this small difference justify buying a sm57
* would buying an i5 or a different mic be a better option

Also it would be cool if someone can point me to some decent quality guitar tracks (preferably hi-gain) recorded on a sm58. I would really like to compare what Im getting with what someone with more experience is getting.

Here is what I tracked using my single recto - recto 2x12 - sm58 - gap73 - fasttrackpro:

Old 11th November 2012
  #2
Gear Addict
 
yoshimodular's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
SM57 and SM58 are basically the same mic with a different shape.
Old 11th November 2012
  #3
Lives for gear
 
jitterybit's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years

also, proximity changes between the two

Old 12th December 2013
  #4
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
This will sound better than both:p

modyourmic.com
Old 12th December 2013
  #5
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The Tab Funkenwerk transformer upgrade to the SM57 was worth every penny.

I should have bought a pair.

For versatility, I'm amazed how handy this mic is.

Aha! Source! The price is right too.

http://www.zenproaudio.com/shure-sm5...ansformer.aspx
Old 12th December 2013
  #6
Here for the gear
 
DJHeskey's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I just un screw the top pf the 58 and use it, there is a very slight difference but I prefer it for distorted guitar sounds anyway. If you have the money definitely go for the Tab Funkenwerk thing I've heard good things about it
Old 12th December 2013
  #7
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I come from setting up 24 inputs with any damn mic we could get our hands on that still worked.

Here I was itching to try out the new Fane AXA12 with my EVM-12L.
The only mic handy was my Beta 58.
It's fine, close enough for rock and roll.

(Note: the pix of the AKG hanging there was another session, just using the pix to fill space )



Tracked with Beta 58 on the Fane.
The cab is oval back so there's way plenty bleed from the EV to where one mic
was fine on the 2X12.



Same guitar, same amp clean channel
Cab loaded with Fane 150-C & AXA12
Working on a scratch arrangement to see how the guitar sounded in a test mix.



TAB 57 on Fane Medusa 150-C
AKG on AXA12

Also used TAB 57 on

3 scratch vocals
Tambourine
Hand Claps

Used pop filter in front of it to smooth out response for those.

Drums, Logic Live Indy Kit.

All into M-Audio Project Mix Preamps, nothing at all fancy.
Old 12th December 2013
  #8
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The sleeper guitar cab mic that never gets enough attention is the 30+ year
old AKG D-1000

Up above you saw the AKG D-1000 just hanging there club rat style.

I was recording this.

No muss no fuss.



You're hearing the detail of the guitar through the Fane AXA12 as I switch pickups from bridge towards neck.

I've got the Hot Cat 100R in clean channel AC100 mode.

I have everything set up to be simple and ready to rock.
Just iMovie Capture using the default input into the Project Mix
Controlling interface, input & level in System Prefs Sound.
If I can get a great sound in a live band situation regardless of the room
with 57's and 58's and Affordable AKG's

I really can't make too many excuses for the room recording at home.
As long as you have the amp dialed in the way you like it, a 57 is near as good as any.
The Upgraded TAB 57 captures more warmth and detail, where that extra detail is rolled off on a stock 57
to prevent live use feedback.

I used Logic Studio 9 for Save Me Tomorrow Test Track.
iMovie for the live video clips.
Old 13th December 2013 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterybit ➑️

also, proximity changes between the two

Those official frequency response graphs published by Shure bear only a vague resemblance to the real response of any given mic. Essentially, they're idealized graphs* of the average response of a large number of mics which taken individually all vary from the graphs and from each other to varying degrees - Shure's quality control on those mics is not the best, certainly nowhere nearly as good as that of a company like Beyer or even Electro-Voice.

If Recording Hacks did in fact do their own tests rather than relying on the factory spec sheet (doubtful but possible) the slight difference between the two Shure might very well be little different from the result if they'd just tested two 58s or two 57s.

That being said, the only difference between a 57 and a 58 is the different screening and foam in the ball of the 58. That does make a minor difference in the response of the mic but whether or not it's significant given the fairly wide variability between individual mics of either model in anybody's guess.

I can't say anything about the accuracy of Audix's graphs or quality control, as Audix didn't exist when the sound company I worked for commissioned the independent microphone testing I base this information on.


* - or perhaps "artist's conceptions"...
Old 13th December 2013 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➑️
The Upgraded TAB 57 captures more warmth and detail, where that extra detail is rolled off on a stock 57 to cut production costs.
Fixed it for you.
Old 13th December 2013 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➑️
Fixed it for you.
That too!

Still what do you do when a self supporting band needs 24 workhorse mics
at some kind of reasonable budget.
Old 14th December 2013 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➑️
That too!

Still what do you do when a self supporting band needs 24 workhorse mics
at some kind of reasonable budget.
Go with what you can afford and upgrade when you can. Ultimately it's the quality of the music, not the quality of the gear, though.

However, what kind of band needs to record 24 channels at a time? I can see that kind of channel count playing live with a larger group, but for recording? Even on drums it's better to use fewer high quality mics than a bunch of budget "workhorse" mics. I typically use only 4 mics on an average 5 or 6 piece kit, but they're good ones - an LDC in front and LDC on the floor tom side, an RE-20 or D12 on kick and an SDC like an AKG C451E on the side of the snare drum. This is a variant of the Glyn Johns/William Wittman school of drum micing and it delivers a very good, natural result without the need for a zillion mics to cause nasty phase interaction. No double snare, no overheads, no hihat mic, no individual tom mics required.

With drums pared down to 4 mics, how many more do you need? Bass, maybe 2 guitars (3 if you're BOC or Skynyrd), vocals. 8-12, max, unless you've got horns, strings, or a lot of extra percussion, most of which will probably get overdubbed these days anyway.
Old 14th December 2013 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➑️
That too!

Still what do you do when a self supporting band needs 24 workhorse mics
at some kind of reasonable budget.
Go with what you can afford and upgrade when you can. Ultimately it's the quality of the music, not the quality of the gear, though.

However, what kind of band needs to record 24 channels at a time? I can see that kind of channel count playing live with a larger group, but for recording? Even on drums it's better to use fewer high quality mics than a bunch of budget "workhorse" mics. I typically use only 4 mics on an average 5 or 6 piece kit, but they're good ones - an LDC in front and LDC on the floor tom side, an RE-20 or D12 on kick and an SDC like an AKG C451E on the side of the snare drum. This is a variant of the Glyn Johns/William Wittman school of drum micing and it delivers a very good, natural result without the need for a zillion mics to cause nasty phase interaction. No double snare, no overheads, no hihat mic, no individual tom mics required.

With drums pared down to 4 mics, how many more do you need? Bass, maybe 2 guitars (3 if you're BOC or Skynyrd), vocals. 8-12, max, unless you've got horns, strings, or a lot of extra percussion, most of which will probably get overdubbed these days anyway.

For micing guitar cabs I sometimes use 57s. Other times I use things like the EV-RE16, which can be found quite cheap on Ebay. Or almost anything else in my mic locker if it's appropriate. Live I use the Sennheiser 609s a lot.
Old 14th December 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I prefer an SM57. have been using it for years. There's plenty of other choices.
Old 14th December 2013 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That was 24 mics for live work.





Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➑️
Go with what you can afford and upgrade when you can. Ultimately it's the quality of the music, not the quality of the gear, though.

However, what kind of band needs to record 24 channels at a time? I can see that kind of channel count playing live with a larger group, but for recording? Even on drums it's better to use fewer high quality mics than a bunch of budget "workhorse" mics. I typically use only 4 mics on an average 5 or 6 piece kit, but they're good ones - an LDC in front and LDC on the floor tom side, an RE-20 or D12 on kick and an SDC like an AKG C451E on the side of the snare drum. This is a variant of the Glyn Johns/William Wittman school of drum micing and it delivers a very good, natural result without the need for a zillion mics to cause nasty phase interaction. No double snare, no overheads, no hihat mic, no individual tom mics required.

With drums pared down to 4 mics, how many more do you need? Bass, maybe 2 guitars (3 if you're BOC or Skynyrd), vocals. 8-12, max, unless you've got horns, strings, or a lot of extra percussion, most of which will probably get overdubbed these days anyway.
Old 14th December 2013 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➑️
That was 24 mics for live work.
Still an awful lot unless the band is really large. The more open mics on stage, the more problems you get and the greater the sludge potential.
Old 14th December 2013 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➑️
Still an awful lot unless the band is really large. The more open mics on stage, the more problems you get and the greater the sludge potential.
24 Channel, Soundcraft Console, 4 ways system to cover 5 vocals, 5 instruments, multiple cabs & keyboards.

Never once did a club owner dare to ask us to turn down. Everything was very well balanced.

We had one of the best band owned PA systems in Washington D.C.

Most of the clubs had horrible systems if any back in the 70's

Our opening set was the entire B side of Abbey Road.

It had to sound good.
Old 14th December 2013
  #18
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rphilip57 ➑️
I should have bought a pair.




Bad or expired links.
Old 15th December 2013 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFTT ➑️
24 Channel, Soundcraft Console, 4 ways system to cover 5 vocals, 5 instruments, multiple cabs & keyboards.

Never once did a club owner dare to ask us to turn down. Everything was very well balanced.

We had one of the best band owned PA systems in Washington D.C.

Most of the clubs had horrible systems if any back in the 70's

Our opening set was the entire B side of Abbey Road.

It had to sound good.
Back in the '70s....... back then you were lucky to have a PA.

And that's a pretty big band.

Soundcraft Series 1?

I generally don't use the same mics or micing techniques live as I do in the studio.
Old 15th December 2013
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Jazz Noise's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I'd give someone a 58, if only because it keeps the capsule an extra 2 cm from the driver.

Overt close mic'ing with SM 57 or SM 58, unless you really know what you're doing, tends to sound crap. Pull it back a foot and hear what the mic actually sounds like on a cab,rather than just 1 square inch of the speaker in the cab.
Old 15th December 2013
  #21
Gear Guru
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I prefer a 57 over a 58. Maybe just because I think a 58 looks strange on an amp.

I used to play with a guy who had the exact same guitar and amp as me. We always ran everything on 11, but he was always louder because he got these pained looks on his face. Funny, it never worked for me.
Old 16th December 2013 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz Noise ➑️
I'd give someone a 58, if only because it keeps the capsule an extra 2 cm from the driver.

Overt close mic'ing with SM 57 or SM 58, unless you really know what you're doing, tends to sound crap. Pull it back a foot and hear what the mic actually sounds like on a cab,rather than just 1 square inch of the speaker in the cab.
I agree in part due to my experience micing my EVM12L and either of my Fanes.

The EVM 12L likes to dominate in a 2X12 blend and that speaker moves a lot of air. Set the mic up too close and you'll either need to drop gain or pull the mic back or even use a pop filter at high SPLS.

Setting up, it helps to know if the speaker you are micing,
has a long throw or short throw cone.

You may need to make adjustments accordingly.
Old 16th December 2013
  #23
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Ok I've been a lurker for years!!!! I actually like the SM7 - . My favorite is blending with a Royer r-121.

58's work but I'm not a fan of the screen- woohoo post #1:-)
Old 16th December 2013 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Guru
 
FFTT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Ears ➑️
Ok I've been a lurker for years!!!! I actually like the SM7 - . My favorite is blending with a Royer r-121.

58's work but I'm not a fan of the screen- woohoo post #1:-)
Welcome to Gearslutz!

If you like an SM7, I think you would like the results with a TAB 57.

The transformer mod gives the TAB 57 much closer to an SM7's smoother response with more detail than a stock 57.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo99 ➑️
Interesting. My 57's and 58's don't sound as different as these do. And if both mics are right against the grille cloth, the 58's capsule is further back.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➑️
Interesting. My 57's and 58's don't sound as different as these do. And if both mics are right against the grille cloth, the 58's capsule is further back.
Yup, with the 58's ball removed they of course sound a bit more similar due to the lack of pop filter but as much or more due to the placement as you mentioned.

Also if you notice (right at the beginning of the video) they are mic'ing two different speakers in the cab. Even the same make, model, and age of speaker can sound a bit different.

Mic'ing the same speaker from two different points but equally far away from the center would be a better test than mic'ing two different speakers in the cab.

Unfortunately mic tests are just very tricky to do accurately and slick looking ones like this sometimes end up promoting the wrong idea to people who don't understand the full picture of what is or might be going on.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #28
Here for the gear
 
I end up protecting the mic with a clean sock anyway. Saves the grill from dust, saliva & humidity from the human mouth. There's going to be a difference from that too. Didn't realize how personal a mic as a piece of gear in that regard that it really is.

I also plug the mic into different guitar amps, that the amp tone stack & power circuits flavors vocals, solid state or tubes. And then there is the choice of cabinet speaker(s) in the signal chain. I soon came to the conclusion that my sub $ 20 Pyle PDMIC58/PDMIC59/PDMIC78 will sound different with the gear I have as unique as my own voice is & are excellent affordable alternatives to the $ 99 Shures. For example I have a Fender Mustang I V2 and my voice is going to sound different with the 57 Deluxe vs 59 Bassman vs 65 Twin Reverb amp & cab sims with even the same 8 inch 20W closed back combo.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #29
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo99 ➑️
I end up protecting the mic with a clean sock anyway saves the grill from dust, saliva & humidity from the human mouth. There's going to be a difference from that too. Didn't realize how personal a mic as a piece of gear in that regard that it really is.

I also plug the mic into different guitar amps, that the amp tone stack & power circuits flavors vocals, solid state or tubes. And then there is the choice of cabinet speaker(s) in the signal chain. I soon came to the conclusion that my sub $ 20 Pyle PDMIC58/PDMIC59/PDMIC78 will sound different with the gear I have as unique as my own voice is & are excellent affordable alternatives to the $ 99 Shures. For example I have a Fender Mustang I V2 and my voice is going to sound different with the 57 Deluxe vs 59 Bassman vs 65 Twin Reverb amp & cab sims with even the same 8 inch 20W closed back combo.
No $20 mic will equal a 58 in sheer ruggednes and longevity, without even considering tonal quality.

I'd also bet that not only do you 3 models of Pyles sound different, you very well might find similar differences in 3 mics of the same model. QC won't be very good in he $20 bracket.

Seriously kids, don't waste your money on cheap junk that will fall apart on you. Save up your money and buy something good. I have Shure SM56s that are AT LEAST 30 years old, still going strong. One Unidyne III 545 that's 10 or 20 older than that.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #30
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➑️
Interesting. My 57's and 58's don't sound as different as these do. And if both mics are right against the grille cloth, the 58's capsule is further back.
Not if you unscrew the ball!
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