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Is Digital Amp modeling the future of guitar tone?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1501
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
I think it's funny that some of the biggest, most demanded and respected engineers in the business can't tell the difference but you can over you tube compression on the internet. You must have golden ears. Who have you mixed lately? How much are your rates?
For the most part these are being used in metal and hard rock, how about jazz and blues, that is where the buss stops, come on. I don't recall Anthony Wilson of Diana Krall and Tuck Andress having one aboard when I saw them recent.
Tuck & Patti - Castles Made Of Sand/Little Wing - YouTube
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1502
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
I think it's funny that some of the biggest, most demanded and respected engineers in the business can't tell the difference but you can over you tube compression on the internet. You must have golden ears. Who have you mixed lately? How much are your rates?
He is not the only one. And he doesnt get payed for saying it.
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1503
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAboutTone ➡️
For the most part these are being used in metal and hard rock, how about jazz and blues, that is where the buss stops, come on. I don't recall Anthony Wilson of Diana Krall and Tuck Andress having one aboard when I saw them recent.
Tuck & Patti - Castles Made Of Sand/Little Wing - YouTube
Actually when the kemper was first released metal was the only genre people were skeptical that the kemper could emulate. Listen, if you don't want a modeler don't buy one. If you have a number of tube amps that you love you don't have a reason too. However, I do believe that it would be very difficult for you or anyone to pick the kemper out consecutively in a blind test. I just haven't heard a bad review of the unit. Every engineer and article praises this machine as a game changer. Don't you think it's possible that it is? Do you really think you could tell the difference? Every time or even half or a third of the time in blind tests? We have boner pills, cell phones 100 times more powerful the the multi million dollar computer that was as big as a building at MIT 40 years ago. We just found the Higgs boson. And many other amazing technologies. Do you really think that emulating transistors and tubes is that difficult in 2012?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well Kemper is not a simm. Its a convolution type thingy, sorta the amp version of Altiverb. You still need the real thing to dump into it and once you move from the initial static point its extrapolation may not be an accurate sound. I also hope that it will preserve other attributes of the real deal which we find desirable. Or as I said its another waste of $$$.
We have tonns of amps so this is for recall only. Given the tone is preserved. This means we should not be too critical of the Kemper as it will be used for a particular sound. Hope this makes sense. I do not expect it to replace any of the valve amps though. We will see.
Actually the heart of the Kemper is a sim, it's not a convolution like Altiverb. The profiling process just sets up the simulation parameters to match the characteristics of the distortion, compression etc and match the tonal envelope of the sound. That's why profile files are under 4Kb in size (you will need to get yourself a small USB thumbdrive to transfer files and firmware between the Kemper and your computer).

The actual tone stack is based on a generic standard style setup, Christoph has stated that he might add more variations down the line for those that want a Mesa style stack for instance. The gain itself is extrapolated from the profiling process, I find that it's accurate to the gain dial on the original amp for at least two notches to either side of the default setting, sometimes much further. Bear in mind that the full range of the gain dial is much further than the real amp so four notches can be the equivalent of the whole throw of the gain on the real amp. Regardless of how far you tweak any of the parameters though the result still sounds like the source amp tone and retain it's characteristic fingerprint, it still sounds and plays like that amp.

The controls aren't radical in nature for the most part (perhaps with the exception of the cab section, and replacing or disabling real cabs), so there's only so far you can modify the tone away form the original anyway. That means it's like recording a guitar amp, only you're storing a guitar amp tone, so ****e in = ****e out, quality in = quality out.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1505
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Actually the heart of the Kemper is a sim, it's not a convolution like Altiverb. The profiling process just sets up the simulation parameters to match the characteristics of the distortion, compression etc and match the tonal envelope of the sound. That's why profile files are under 4Kb in size (you will need to get yourself a small USB thumbdrive to transfer files and firmware between the Kemper and your computer).

The actual tone stack is based on a generic standard style setup, Christoph has stated that he might add more variations down the line for those that want a Mesa style stack for instance. The gain itself is extrapolated from the profiling process, I find that it's accurate to the gain dial on the original amp for at least two notches to either side of the default setting, sometimes much further. Bear in mind that the full range of the gain dial is much further than the real amp so four notches can be the equivalent of the whole throw of the gain on the real amp. Regardless of how far you tweak any of the parameters though the result still sounds like the source amp tone and retain it's characteristic fingerprint, it still sounds and plays like that amp.

The controls aren't radical in nature for the most part (perhaps with the exception of the cab section, and replacing or disabling real cabs), so there's only so far you can modify the tone away form the original anyway. That means it's like recording a guitar amp, only you're storing a guitar amp tone, so ****e in = ****e out, quality in = quality out.
So what you are saying it tries to analyse the eq curve and a few other parameters and then tries to extrapolate it? And it will be faithfull to how the amp behaves. I am getting nervous again. Hmmm. I will give it a try after all. In the end I have low expectations and requirements for it. So far listening to the posted clips has been very discouraging. Plastiky, flat. No newance. The distortion examples sounded horrible. But I will see if I can get what we need out of it.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1506
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
Actually when the kemper was first released metal was the only genre people were skeptical that the kemper could emulate.
Well there are metal styles where they use Cubase plugins for a "guitar " sound. They dont need an amp. They are "pushing the boundaries". The aglier fizzier and more horrible it is the better.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1507
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Really?
I bought an Ultra. Had it for 2 weeks. I tried hard (been playing since the 70's)Had all my engineers shove it down the throat of every client. Do you want to know how many sessions it got used on? 0. Some clients got offended and accused me of giving them a toy rather then a real amp.
We tried the AMT pre's (valve units) into a tube power amp (Mesa Roadking), into greenbacks. Sounded like the amp. The ultra is a toy in comparison.
BTW a B1 AMT pre into a Matchless Phoenix is an incredible sound. My clients agree. Perhaps instead of theorising you should try the AMT pre's first.
theorizing? i own multiple amt preamps and they are great, but cheaply made and sound nothing like the axe fx. they are usable, but no closer than the axe fx. the b1 and other legend series are not valves btw.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1508
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
]
It's like the youtube video you saw of the Kemper and posted to support your view and decry it's "lack of depth" in the other thread after I called you out here. The one that's using a handycam mic on an open, noisy, loud and crowded show floor from over a year ago (and long before the Kemper was released) of them profiling a rather dull high gain Mesa. No-one could use that video to do anything other than maybe whet an appetite for more information or decide that handycam microphones suck.
All along, Youtube videos and 'clips' on the internet seem to be just fine for trying to convince people these things sound "great" and that they "can't tell the difference".

But if they can tell the difference, and they don't like it, then the 'quality' of the Youtube audio is to blame?

It seems to me that if you can tell the difference with bad audio, you should be even more able to tell the difference when the audio is good. Or when you are there in person. Either clips are adequate or they are not. They can not be declared inadequate after the fact simply because they failed to convince the listener of your point of view.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1509
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Jayrawk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well there are metal styles where they use Cubase plugins for a "guitar " sound. They dont need an amp. They are "pushing the boundaries". The aglier fizzier and more horrible it is the better.
That's all you got out of my post?
So what's your point? Im not here to debate the sound of metal and if it is good or not. The quality or preference for a sound is subjective. Were you not aware of that? I said many people were concerned the Kemper could not do metal when it was first released. They are not concerned any longer.

The funny thing is I don't even own a kemper yet. I play an old 70's super six reverb with analog pedals in front. However, I also don't fool myself into thinking I can tell the difference between an amp that has been profiled correctly and the kemper. If Andy Sneap and other engineers that are way more successful than you and I can't then there is a probaly a good chance you and I can't either. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you on another level?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1510
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mdme_sadie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq ➡️
And yet, Youtube videos and 'clips' on the internet seem to be just fine for trying to convince people these things sound "great" and that they "can't tell the difference".

But if they can tell the difference, then the 'quality' of the Youtube audio is to blame?

It seems to me that if you can tell the difference with bad audio, you should be even more able to tell the difference when the audio is good. Or when you are there in person. Either these clips are adequate or they are not. They can not be declared inadequate simply because they failed to convince the listener of your point of view.
You're grabbing onto the wrong statement, please dont' try to paint me with the same brush as others. I have no problem with Youtube videos, I have a problem with a Youtube video where the audio was recorded with a nasty handycam microphone in a noisy environment where you can barely hear the source and people making value judgements about the quality of a piece of kit based on that video.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1511
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazrak ➡️
theorizing? i own multiple amt preamps and they are great, but cheaply made and sound nothing like the axe fx. they are usable, but no closer than the axe fx. the b1 and other legend series are not valves btw.
Not valve, no. But still better then the moddelers if you know what you are doing. I just got in an SS11a, SS11b, SS20 and the bass unit. They are the ones the client used and they are very impressive in the right hands. Irrespective of which components are used (they are very sturdily made) its the sound which is important. You can even get them to sound abit like the moddeler if you saturate them in reverb (typicall trick for the moddeler manufacturers). But why would you want to?
Plug them into a decent power amp and you are good. A couple of these and some legends will get you much further then an AxFX.
Which AMT preamps are you using and how?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1512
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
That's all you got out of my post?
So what's your point? Im not here to debate the sound of metal and if it is good or not. The quality or preference for a sound is subjective. Were you not aware of that? I said many people were concerned the Kemper could not do metal when it was first released. They are not concerned any longer.

The funny thing is I don't even own a kemper yet. I play an old 70's super six reverb with analog pedals in front. However, I also don't fool myself into thinking I can tell the difference between an amp that has been profiled correctly and the kemper. If Andy Sneap and other engineers that are way more successful than you and I can't then there is a probaly a good chance you and I can't either. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you on another level?
Well you can certainly create testing conditions to favour either side. You can get them both to play a sound which is attainable by both techs and is therefore close. But should you want to approximate a good tone with your box of digital wizardry it will fall short.
Andy is not after a nice guitar tone when he is using emulators. He is after A tone. And commercial success has very little to do with the tones you create.
BTW, you dont know who I am, why would you try and use someone else's commercial success to try and bellittle my achievements?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1513
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mdme_sadie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
So what you are saying it tries to analyse the eq curve and a few other parameters and then tries to extrapolate it? And it will be faithfull to how the amp behaves. I am getting nervous again. Hmmm. I will give it a try after all. In the end I have low expectations and requirements for it. So far listening to the posted clips has been very discouraging. Plastiky, flat. No newance. The distortion examples sounded horrible. But I will see if I can get what we need out of it.
What examples are you listening to? Unfortunately a lot of guitarists like overtly smoothed out legato 80's fusion tones.

Go at it with an open mind and actually profile with it.

Do some blind tests and learn how to use the unit (not that it's complex). I wasn't impressed with it until I learned how to make good profiles, my initial attempts were poor because I wasn't refining correctly and basically it was a case of giving it a poor quality input. I also learned that sometimes a profile will just get skewed, maybe there was a background noise or something during the process that messed it up, and no amount of refining will solve that, so you have to just press the new profile button and start over. I also hadn't understood the value of reverb to bring back just a tinge of the room sound (and just how to do that with it's onboard controls because I was used to much simpler verbs).

The reason I wasn't impressed was because I simply wasn't used to the recorded amp tones that I was hearing. I knew about the sound, but didn't get on that fundamental level that this is really how amps sound to the rest of the world. Even at a gig it's miked up and shoved through a PA. I like the sound of a natural amp in the room with me, but this gives you the sound of an amp from the control room and it is very very accurate to that sound with all the nuance and as plastikey (or not) as the source.

BTW You can make it sound "in the room" if you want by disabling the cab section (which can be done to just one output for guitarists that need that while you take a direct line from the KPA to the desk) and shoving it through a powered guitar cab speaker, it'll be just as in the room as a real amp.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1514
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Jayrawk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well you can certainly create testing conditions to favour either side. You can get them both to play a sound which is attainable by both techs and is therefore close. But should you want to approximate a good tone with your box of digital wizardry it will fall short.
Andy is not after a nice guitar tone when he is using emulators. He is after A tone. And commercial success has very little to do with the tones you create.
BTW, you dont know who I am, why would you try and use someone else's commercial success to try and bellittle my achievements?
Im not even sure what you mean by the first two sentences. Like I said what someone thinks is a good or a nice tone is subjective. ART IS SUBJECTIVE. I would have to disagree with your statement that "commercial success has very little to do with the tones you create." That might be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this forum.

Sir, I am not trying to belittle you at all thats not my intention. I simply asked if you believe that you are on another level than some of the world class engineers that cannot tell the difference between this kemper and a real amp. No disrespect.

Anyway arent you Yuri Kogan from Australia?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1515
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
What examples are you listening to? Unfortunately a lot of guitarists like overtly smoothed out legato 80's fusion tones.

Go at it with an open mind and actually profile with it.

Do some blind tests and learn how to use the unit (not that it's complex). I wasn't impressed with it until I learnt how to make good profiles, my initial attempts were poor because I wasn't refining correctly and basically it was a case of giving it a poor quality input. I also learnt that sometimes a profile will just get skewed, maybe there was a background noise or something during hte process that messed it up, and no amount of refining will solve that, so you have to just press the new profile button and start over.

The reason I wasn't impressed was because I simply wasn't used to the recorded amp tones that I was hearing. I knew about the sound, but didn't get on that fundamental level that this is really how amps sound to the rest of the world. Even at a gig it's miked up and shoved through a PA. I like the sound of a natural amp in the room with me, but this gives you the sound of an amp from the control room and it is very very accurate to that sound with all the nuance and as plastikey (or not) as the source.

BTW You can make it sound "in the room" if you want by disabling the cab section (which can be done to just one output for guitarists that need that while you take a direct line from the KPA to the desk) and shoving it through a powered guitar cab speaker, it'll be just as in the room as a real amp.
Thats the plan
We have a funtastic studio and some great gear. The idea is to gie the unit every chance. I dont want to waste money so I want the unit to be sgood for what we intend it for. We can get any sound here, but I want a faster recall. So if this can give me a tone which is close, we will keep it.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1516
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
Im not even sure what you mean by the first two sentences. Like I said what someone thinks is a good or a nice tone is subjective. ART IS SUBJECTIVE. I would have to disagree with your statement that "commercial success has very little to do with the tones you create." That might be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on this forum.

Sir, I am not trying to belittle you at all thats not my intention. I simply asked if you believe that you are on another level than some of the world class engineers that cannot tell the difference between this kemper and a real amp. No disrespect.

Anyway arent you Yuri Kogan from Australia?
http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/i...bd0859b8/l.jpg
Now there is an old pic You will find better ones on Black Pearl Studios |.

BTW if commercial success was dependent on tones and not marketing music scene would not be in a **** it is in now.

I will "profile " some sounds with our Kemper when it arrives and post the comparisons with the original sounds. You can decide then whether you can tell the difference.
Bloody Googe
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1517
BOP
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Hell no!

It's the same as trying to replace vocal with a synth.
Sure there are bands using vocal synth but that has nothing to do with the art of voice performance or recording and most importantly replacing anything.

Big difference between using something as part of your workflow and replacing something in your workflow.

I have sims myself but just because in the facility that I am slowly trying to assemble I want to be ready for the midlife crisis dudes or rich kids who want to fiddle all day with guitar gear while I charge for studio time.

Just to be clear, there is a big difference between:
Going DI while using an amp/speaker sim
and
Having a choice preamp, going through that preamp straight into all kinds of outboard, and software tools with reamping happening when needed.

The first is a toy in most situations. The software is not a toy just a guitar setup relying purely on a single all encompassing package. The software is very useful in all kinds of situations but is not a replacement.
The second option of-course cuts the mustard and is what I am into as much as ordering custom combos.

When guitarists talk about an amp they are not necessarily talking about a boutique combo too btw
I play my archtop through mic preamps going into my AD with hardware monitoring for convenience when I practice because the rack is just by me and I just plug in and go but there is a real power amp and speaker and a real preamp at work without roundtrip latency involved. I am playing through a real amp albeit put together in a different manner than what the beatles used.

If sting has a distressor in his chain during live shows or gets a guitar preamped through the console that does not mean that he is on the same boat as the people claiming that a laptop with garageband is a replacement for a proper setup even if all the weird haired minor pop celebrities have videos talking about how it's the future.

Having a laptop running a lexicon reverb for your guitar during a gig is not the same as using a guitar amp sim either.
Having a plugin provide distortion for your otherwise hardware preamped and hardware power amped guitar signal is also not the same as using just an amp sim going straight into the PA.

Software is not bull**** but the way it is viewed by those who don't know what it can and what it can't really do in practice is very twisted.

There is no game changer visible on a clear day from the highest peak with a telescope at the current.

Extremely useful Piano VI's din't and will not push out real grand pianos so why amp sims which are magnitudes more ****ty in real life scenarios, would have any impact?

Others are right that the trend is actually in the complete opposite. A beat-up twin reverb that might fall to parts if nudged is a thousand something pounds at my local store and I bet someone already bought it. I have met absolutely no professional that uses amp sims live as their main thing.
Chic Corea plays a grand piano mostly now and hip-hop producers hire session people to play real instruments to realise what they prototyped using samples.

Ever walked to a typical guitar store?
85% stuff for kids and amateurs and then 15% of stuff that a serious player could use with only 5% not oriented for those on a tight budget, usually behind glass or hidden in a corner...

I have to order my strings online because no store in the second biggest city in the UK carries a sensible selection of flatwounds yet a majority of the professionals historically and today are using flatwounds not available at almost every store I visited.

The whole industry is geared for selling and marketing stuff to amateurs so there is no point in looking at random directions in order to judge what works best.

Same is with studio stuff really - you could think that everyone records on 100 dollar microphones if you judged by what Led Zeppelin tribute bands use and by the stock available in many shops.

40 years ago you could walk into a store and get serious stuff. Nowadays you either go directly to the place where they make the stuff, go to a specialist store or the rare bigger store with serious gear at the ready or do everything online.
No wonder people think the future is here in terms of a whole new dimension of guitar playing in the form of guitar software packages if all they see in stores is that and then low to mid level stomboxes with little combo practice amps in between, with maybe a behind the glass marshall, making it all look like that is all of the available choices.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1518
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Jayrawk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Now there is an old pic You will find better ones on Black Pearl Studios |.

BTW if commercial success was dependent on tones and not marketing music scene would not be in a **** it is in now.

I will "profile " some sounds with our Kemper when it arrives and post the comparisons with the original sounds. You can decide then whether you can tell the difference.
Bloody Googe
I deleted it out of respect. Listen, I don't want to split hairs on something this ridiculous. I hope the Kemper is a purchase that makes you very happy. I just personally think it might. Nice chatting with you. Good luck on your purchase.

I agree marketing is HUGE and determines a lot of what is popular in the culture. Absolutely. However, to say that certain engineers aren't recognized and appreciated for the tones they create is something I have to disagree with.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1519
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayrawk ➡️
I deleted it out of respect. Listen, I don't want to split hairs on something this ridiculous. I hope the Kemper is a purchase that makes you very happy. I just personally think it might. Nice chatting with you. Good luck on your purchase.

I agree marketing is HUGE and determines a lot of what is popular in the culture. Absolutely. However, to say that certain engineers aren't recognized and appreciated for the tones they create is something I have to disagree with.
Hope so
Talk later
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1973 ➡️
Never used a Kemper or Axe but as a synth guy but a producer who works in pop/rock, I can say that for clean stuff, one could easily get away with a DI into a great pre with Ampfarm etc. Once the gain goes up is when it all starts thinning out.
I've never used them either,and probably won't in the near future[$$],but THIS quote is exactly my opinion also.

The real signal chain IMO is this:1."Brain-2.Fingers-3.Feel"...these three, are way way more important,than digital vs conventional,as amplification is obviously AFTER,and is digital the future of guitar tone? Probably.
RK
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1521
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOP ➡️
I have to order my strings online because no store in the second biggest city in the UK carries a sensible selection of flatwounds yet a majority of the professionals historically and today are using flatwounds not available at almost every store I visited.

The whole industry is geared for selling and marketing stuff to amateurs so there is no point in looking at random directions in order to judge what works best.
This is the painful truth.
Even guitars. I bought a few online (blindly, off course) since I couldn't find them in stores to try them out anyway. Not weird stuff - I did it with a Baja Tele which is not what you'd call an exoteric instrument. In 7 stores I could find only one, in desperate need of a setup and strings without a double coat of rust.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1522
BOP
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudiger ➡️
This is the painful truth.
Even guitars. I bought a few online (blindly, off course) since I couldn't find them in stores to try them out anyway. Not weird stuff - I did it with a Baja Tele which is not what you'd call an exoteric instrument. In 7 stores I could find only one, in desperate need of a setup and strings without a double coat of rust.
If you live in the UK there is this one street in London, forgot the name but you can easily find it googling and on it and around there are at least a dozen of shops with used guitars and other bits and pieces.
Most of-course don't cut the mustard but the selection is huge.
Took me 3 days of browsing before I got myself a Tokai es-175 copy for 1.5 grand. My blood is too thick for London so din't haggle or anything to get it cheaper.

They have new stuff too.
Most of the guitars there however either have bigsby or do not really sound well enough for the price asked however you can find some gems hidden in between.

I found an 80ties ibanez L5 - they wanted 2k for it if I remember correctly.
Back then I was new in the country and where I came from there was no haggling culture so I just decided that it was listed for too much and passed on it but if I saw it today I would try to definitely haggle hard and get it.

If you can, give those shops a go - if I would live close I would go there every week to scoop up deals as getting deals is my new hobby. Nothing like buying gear, using it for a year and then selling it with a profit on the original price that I paid - a big F U to the man.

------

Also something that I wanted to point out in general since people seem to be talking about it:
The question is not wether you can tell the difference or not on contemporary pop stuff which mostly has little to do with the art of modern guitar playing.
We all know what producers use and the mad money people make of it.
Us instrumentalists have been watching the pit orchestras replaced by dudes with samplers, Kenny G recording himself over records he should not be allowed to glance upon.
We got the memo that the gig was taken over by a single DJ who charges more then a quartet for his amazing powers of matching tempos of two tunes and showing off an amazing arsenal of headphone postures.

The big sore thumb is the idea of replacing hardware with software simulations for live performance and in the studio when it comes to "the future of guitar tone" or however it was phrased originally.

Just because hip hop, electro and all kinds of thingiebobs are making mad dollar it does not change the fact that instrumental music has it's own world and that out here we don't use the grid in PT and we don't play to a click track.

You can put a synthed string section in a pop tune but try that at the symphony hall and see what happens.

Maybe unruly but if you went to a jazz jam with a laptop and have it pop up a cpu overload error midway in your solo you would go from square to cube.

Amps are not ridiculously expensive to warrant someone slaving over software to get something going so the implication that the DIY of the working mans music leads to software is BS in my opinion.
The myth of the poor kid making hip hop the way it used to be made because of the economic situation does not apply in this scenario as you can get a used amp that kicks the crap out of most software for a hundred dollars.

For a hundred dollars you won't get the computer, the software, the DI box and something for playback.

And no, you don't get the sound of an expensive amp with cheap software until you make it work the same for the player since the player creates the sound. The whole chain is the instrument for modern guitar.

I can't stand clean channels in amp sims - it's a travesty - it just does not work.
It's like that silver faced range from focusrite - the one where the had stuff like a stereo compressor that looked the part but even focusrite avoids mentioning that the line existed anywhere on their site (I dig focusrite btw.). You can get most of the line for a few tenners a piece on ebay.

A modelling amp has a proper speaker, a preamp section, a power amp section and most of what it does by modelling is add effects and eq which is useful but is no game changer. Not the same thing as a software package that simulates the preamp stage, simulates the power stage and then ads speaker simulation either.

What makes a tube amp what most people think of as tube amp is the power section, not the preamp section actually while the preamps of-course have their own unique impact and characteristic of operation.
You can go from DI to software effects to tube power amp driving the right speakers and get a good tone that is usable but that is a different animal now.
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1523
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOP ➡️
If you live in the UK there is this one street in London, forgot the name but you can easily find it googling and on it and around there are at least a dozen of shops with used guitars and other bits and pieces.
Most of-course don't cut the mustard but the selection is huge.
Took me 3 days of browsing before I got myself a Tokai es-175 copy for 1.5 grand. My blood is too thick for London so din't haggle or anything to get it cheaper.
.
I live in Portugal but I think you're talking about the shops in Denmark Street. Been there last year and everything seemed hyped, too pricy and jumping on the "vintage" bandwagon. There was a time when it was easier to find good deals. I also bought a Tokai (a goldtop Let's Rock) which is one hell of a beast!

A few years ago passed on a vintage Les Paul Jnr someone was selling to feed the drug addiction. So cheap but I couldn't spend the money then. Biggest non-purchase regret of all time.
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1524
Lives for gear
 
mdme_sadie's Avatar
@BOP, I think you're totally missing the point in your posts. An amp sim doesn't replace the musician, it replaces or augments the amp, it's just a part of the signal chain. It's no different than swapping out a Fender for a Marshall. Or an AC30 for a blues Cube, or changing the guitar you want to use for the day.

People that don't know much about it think that's a huge difference, but in reality it isn't. Most musicians just play whatever rig they're given, they go through many manufacturers of both amps and guitars in their careers and they still sound the same and just like themselves on record. In fact often what's considered a signature tone for one instrument or amp was recorded witha completely different one. e.g. that Marshall and Strat signature sound that was actually Hendrix recording with a Fender amp and Gibson guitar, or that monstrous Les Paul signature tone on all those Led Zep records that was Jimmy Page recording with a Telecaster through a tiny Supro amp.

Replacing an analog component in a signal chain with a solid state, or digital one takes nothing away from the musician and may not even have an effect on the sound at all. It's making a mountain out of a molehill, and TBH it's kinda offensive to musicians to suggest that their musicianship is totally dependent on their amps.
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1525
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
I think a huge problem in this issue is how folk compare the two. To many people out there the comparison is guitar to amp-sim through regular speakers, vs guitar to head to cabinet DESIGNED TO BRING OUT THE BEST SOUND for guitar. The skip the part where you put a mic in front of the cabinet, record that, then play it back through the same speakers you used to listen to the amp sim. Then the difference is not that huge. The real amp is going to be much louder than relatively speaking wimpy studio monitors, and the type of speaker used in a cabinet ads a tone that the monitor just cannot reproduce.

To me, on a recorded track, the convenience of using something like Guitar Rig is definitely worth giving up the marginally better sound you get from a real amp which is miced.
Old 3rd August 2012
  #1526
Gear Maniac
 
Seeker of Rock's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I used to wonder why big software and consumer gear companies spend all of the money they do on marketing instead of investing more in producing quality products. From a business perspective, after reading some of these posts, now I kind of understand why.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1527
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Weather is great, amazing, sucks, better than sex, horrible etc..........
Nothing as such is worth 1850 PERIOD.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1528
Lives for gear
 
mdme_sadie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAboutTone ➡️
Weather is great, amazing, sucks, better than sex, horrible etc..........
Nothing as such is worth 1850 PERIOD.
Why are you so caught up on the cost? Apart form the fact that you can easily find a Kemper for a lot less than that even at the full US price of $1850 (which is more than it costs in Europe) it's still a lot cheaper than most of the profiled amps. Classic VOX's, Marshalls, Fenders, Mesa's, Dumble's, DB13's, London amps, HiWatts, etc. How can you be all about tone, and complaining about the "crap at guitar center" if you're not willing to spend any money on decent amps in the first place. Hell forget amps, even guitars, my Les Paul cost more!

Which is it? Cheap or expensive? Amateur kit for GC where they don't have any pro level kit in your estimation, or priced way too high for any normal rational folk?

Seriously, stop trolling and stop being so insecure about your amps. No-one is going to come in the middle of the night and steal them from you, they're not going to cease to sound as good, I even doubt that their value will drop regardless of how naff they are if the selling price of most vintage amps are anything to go by. Digital amp modeling doesn't take anything away from existing setups, but it does add options just like buying any new amp does.
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1529
BOP
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Why are you so caught up on the cost? Apart form the fact that you can easily find a Kemper for a lot less than that even at the full US price of $1850 (which is more than it costs in Europe) it's still a lot cheaper than most of the profiled amps. Classic VOX's, Marshalls, Fenders, Mesa's, Dumble's, DB13's, London amps, HiWatts, etc. How can you be all about tone, and complaining about the "crap at guitar center" if you're not willing to spend any money on decent amps in the first place. Hell forget amps, even guitars, my Les Paul cost more!

Which is it? Cheap or expensive? Amateur kit for GC where they don't have any pro level kit in your estimation, or priced way too high for any normal rational folk?

Seriously, stop trolling and stop being so insecure about your amps. No-one is going to come in the middle of the night and steal them from you, they're not going to cease to sound as good, I even doubt that their value will drop regardless of how naff they are if the selling price of most vintage amps are anything to go by. Digital amp modeling doesn't take anything away from existing setups, but it does add options just like buying any new amp does.
****ing hell I spent my whole break working on a post to explain to you what is wrong with your previous statements reworking it to try and make it clearer but it is obvious to me that it is you who are trolling and trolling on purpose so I am out of this discussion.

Regardless of your point man, just look at your previous post - I mean you come on, you defeat your own arguments the next sentence after you state them.

Are you a salesman for a company that sells amp sims and are trying to generate google results or something?
Old 3rd August 2012 | Show parent
  #1530
Gear Guru
 
AllAboutTone's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Well I am keeping my eye out for one on craigslist, otherwise I will just use reamp.
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