The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
What's with the current "electronification" of guitar sounds ?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #61
Lives for gear
 
RedBaaron's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Only problem with the "too old to get it " argument is that most of us old farts were busy diddling around with pitch shifters, harmonizers, delays and every other kind of Boss pedal back in the 90's, if not earlier . Over time, some of us realized how rarely that stuff actually makes the final cut. Which I think is perhaps what the OP was getting it.

Sometimes it did make cut though, and made all the difference. "Black Hole Sun" sounds like a Leslie organ, but what would it be without that? "Come As You Are" 's wobbly chorus gives it just the right watery vibe to work with the album art.

There's nothing really new with all this is there ? "Crimson And Clover." "I Had Too Much to Dream Last Night" ? Classic tunes, heavy on effects. Arguably, electric guitar was heavy on effects from the beginning...or close. Even midi guitar , which opens up a new world tonally(but is practically worthless for faster playing), has got to be going on 30 or 40 years old now.

They're no substitute for better playing. Still, in the right context, they can add a needed dash of this or that. Personally, what I've found to be a waste of time are those consumer-grade floor units that have an overabundance of modulation and delay-based effects in 80% of the presets, with no intuitive way to control each one. It's like "here's a shitty flanger mixed with an even shittier chorus" ; see how you like it !
Even those can add character and color as background tracks when they're stereo though. Although, in that scenario, I think it's better off going in clean it to adjust later as needed , rather than using hardware .

Ok, I'll say it. Flanger. Flanger is the one effect with absolutely no legit use whatsoever. Flanger ought rightfully go the way of the dodo. Don't "oh but Hendrix" me , either. He still would have sound liked him without it!

(I kid , I kid , your flanger track sounds awesome....don't shoot me).

Last edited by RedBaaron; 1 week ago at 11:43 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #62
Lives for gear
 
Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Where are these new, innovative and futuristic guitar sounds afforded by digital technology? Are they hiding somewhere?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #63
Lives for gear
 
AfterViewer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Perhaps they are resting on their laurels? Digital has been eating up the old and spitting out the new, all along. Prolly just waiting for the right moment in space/time.
Old 1 week ago
  #64
Lives for gear
 
Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Yeah, guitar sounds are what they are. Digital hasn't introduced new guitar sounds, it is a different way of arriving at the same tones, with digital conveniences. And some sacrifices which some here don't want to admit.

Violin hasn't innovated much lately either, so don't feel bad. Innovation in tone is good, you can do that with analog and/or digital. Innovation in the music itself is even better.
Old 1 week ago
  #65
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
I thought I would balance your somber song with some optimism, but no can do, LOL Just like with the DAW and the endless array of plugins, so is it with the new fx boxes. You can be lured into the fallacy that you [I]must[I] utilize every feature, or be happy with the options sitting there, waiting patiently in the virtual warehouse, to be called as desired. Personally, I am absolutely loving the Helix. This is not the Line 6 of the past. This is a whole new ballgame.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #66
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron ➡️
Only problem with the "too old to get it " argument is that most of us old farts were busy diddling around with pitch shifters, harmonizers, delays and every other kind of Boss pedal back in the 90's, if not earlier . Over time, some of us realized how rarely that stuff actually makes the final cut. Which I think is perhaps what the OP was getting it.

Sometimes it did make cut though, and made all the difference. "Black Hole Sun" sounds like a Leslie organ, but what would it be without that? "Come As You Are" 's wobbly chorus gives it just the right watery vibe to work with the album art.

There's nothing really new with all this is there ? "Crimson And Clover." "I Had Too Much to Dream Last Night" ? Classic tunes, heavy on effects. Arguably, electric guitar was heavy on effects from the beginning...or close. Even midi guitar , which opens up a new world tonally(but is practically worthless for faster playing), has got to be going on 30 or 40 years old now.

They're no substitute for better playing. Still, in the right context, they can add a needed dash of this or that. Personally, what I've found to be a waste of time are those consumer-grade floor units that have an overabundance of modulation and delay-based effects in 80% of the presets, with no intuitive way to control each one. It's like "here's a shitty flanger mixed with an even shittier chorus" ; see how you like it !
Even those can add character and color as background tracks when they're stereo though. Although, in that scenario, I think it's better off going in clean it to adjust later as needed , rather than using hardware .

Ok, I'll say it. Flanger. Flanger is the one effect with absolutely no legit use whatsoever. Flanger ought rightfully go the way of the dodo. Don't "oh but Hendrix" me , either. He still would have sound liked him without it!

(I kid , I kid , your flanger track sounds awesome....don't shoot me).
"Getting to old to get it" is an age old " argument of deletants, who never created anything new with those cheap emulations of tools used for decades to create music. Playing a cheap toy which tells you "you are hearing a Dumble/Marshall...." and believing it enough to argue with great aplomb that people just too dumb to get it, they are usually unable to go anywhere past making big statements with no substance. Its all about cred they don't possess.
These are all tools, they are only as good as the results you get using them. B***s**t is cheap.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #67
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
"Getting to old to get it" is an age old " argument of deletants, who never created anything new with those cheap emulations of tools used for decades to create music. Playing a cheap toy which tells you "you are hearing a Dumble/Marshall...." and believing it enough to argue with great aplomb that people just too dumb to get it, they are usually unable to go anywhere past making big statements with no substance. Its all about cred they don't possess.
These are all tools, they are only as good as the results you get using them. B***s**t is cheap.
While I agree the earlier post was a cheap shot at grey beards screaming at the moon because things are different. I take a different stance with the gear - if it's a good song played with attitude or soul the gear is also irrelevant - whether you are playing through a nasty emulation or a $5K Mesa Boogie. If it works, it works. A good example - even though its a throw-away pop song is "My Favourite Game" by The Cardigans. A two note guitar solo played through what sounds like a Pignose or some other nasty little practice amp - it rocks - it's appropriate and no amp, guitar or guitarist (controversial!) in the world is going to improve that song. Poptastic.
(edit: the "guitar" sound is so bad it could even be a stylophone or something! Does it matter? Nope.)

Last edited by Scragend; 1 week ago at 10:28 AM.. Reason: edit
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #68
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend ➡️
While I agree the earlier post was a cheap shot at grey beards screaming at the moon because things are different. I take a different stance with the gear - if it's a good song played with attitude or soul the gear is also irrelevant - whether you are playing through a nasty emulation or a $5K Mesa Boogie. If it works, it works. A good example - even though its a throw-away pop song is "My Favourite Game" by The Cardigans. A two note guitar solo played through what sounds like a Pignose or some other nasty little practice amp - it rocks - it's appropriate and no amp, guitar or guitarist (controversial!) in the world is going to improve that song. Poptastic.
(edit: the "guitar" sound is so bad it could even be a stylophone or something! Does it matter? Nope.)
I think we are talking bout the same thing.
And I dont like most Mesa amps
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #69
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
I think we are talking bout the same thing.
And I dont like most Mesa amps
Fair enough!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #70
Gear Guru
 
12ax7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend ➡️

[...] I agree the earlier post was a cheap shot at grey beards screaming at the moon because things are different. [...]
...Well, if you're referring to my earlier post, you should know that I just happen to be an old "grey beard" myself (which is why I know of what I speak).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 ➡️
...Well, if you're referring to my earlier post, you should know that I just happen to be an old "grey beard" myself (which is why I know of what I speak).
Get us all in a room for a row and we'll probably have a cup of tea and fall asleep!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #72
Gear Guru
 
12ax7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scragend ➡️
Get us all in a room for a row and we'll probably have a cup of tea and fall asleep!
Well yeah, I guess you're right...

...Up until those damn kids start playing in our yards again, and then we're just duty bound to chase 'em off our lawns! (It's tradition.)
Old 1 week ago
  #73
Lives for gear
 
Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
"Ah, old grey beard, I have a token I was bidden to give to thee."
- The Mouth of Sauron

Whatever you can say about Sauron, dude had good lawyers.
Old 1 week ago
  #74
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Aside from the human voice. Is there an electro mechanical instrument that has been more successfully mutable in tone than electric guitar?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiodeBridge ➡️
Aside from the human voice. Is there an electro mechanical instrument that has been more successfully mutable in tone than electric guitar?
I guess because you are touching strings directly so the human input is huge. With say a piano the human does fixed note selection and velocity - and that's it - with guitar there's so many ways of getting a sound from a string, bending notes, picking, fingering hammering, pull-offs and then adding all the ways you can manipulate the sound once you've created it - almost endless opportunities for creation.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #76
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
Seems to me a truly great player, Alan Holdsworth, broadly lost a huge amount of appeal when he went SynthAxe. Might be an unrelated coincidence, but I doubt it.
I can't say he ever lost appeal with the SynthAxe. From my perspective, he integrated it well into what he did. There was still always, in his music, the soaring, complex solos and chording. As Holdsworth aficionados, who would indict him for using the SynthAxe in the first place?

The reality is he never had a great deal of appeal due to the esoteric nature of his music.
Old 1 week ago
  #77
Here for the gear
 
Doesn't it all come down to what sounds good? The problem, to me, is the obsession with copying and attempting to emulate limited genres of guitar playing. A lot of derivative metal out there, quite ordinary and uninspiring in the sameness of it all. When someone is motivated to just prove they "can do it too", i.e., get crushing tones, blast out some speed runs, and chug with the best of them, the field doesn't grow.

So that mindset gets in the way of developing one's own style. Then there's the tinkering mentioned here. How many freakin' tones do you need? The manufacturers would have you believe you need a complex pedal board. Those gonzo pedal boards turn me off. Again, how many sounds do you really need?

People have to practice more and stop noodling around. When you practice, even just going through chord and scale books, your creativity develops and you find links between melodic expressions. I come up with riffs every time I practice. If I fool around with gear and "sounds", I get nothing new.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #78
Gear Guru
 
12ax7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiodeBridge ➡️
Aside from the human voice. Is there an electro mechanical instrument that has been more successfully mutable in tone than electric guitar?
The human voice is NOT an electro-mechanical instrument (at least in the absence of a microphone)...

...But when a microphone is involved, ANY "mechanical instrument" instantly becomes "electro-mechanical".

As far as electro-mechanical instruments with a propensity for "mutable
tone", I hereby nominate the Hammond Organ.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #79
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 ➡️
The human voice is NOT an electro-mechanical instrument (at least in the absence of a microphone)...

...But when a microphone is involved, ANY "mechanical instrument" instantly becomes "electro-mechanical".

As far as electro-mechanical instruments with a propensity for "mutable
tone", I hereby nominate the Hammond Organ.
I dunno - the Hammond probably has the most distinctive sound of any eloctric organ. Unless you're using "electro-mechanical"in a really strict sense..... Is a Farfisa "electro-mechanical? It does have a mechanical keyboard. Is an oscillator a "machine"? If so, there are lots of keyboards that would fill the bill.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #80
Lives for gear
 
RedBaaron's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
I dont like most Mesa amps
Since you're an amp man, I hope you don't mind me asking: have you seen or tried the new California Tweed?

I'm not a big Mesa guy either in general, but that Cali has some sick demos! It's nothing like their typical line. More like Vox humped Dumble, then had a menage-a-trios with a 50's Fender Tweed. I tried to get a hold of one a couple years back, but my dealer couldn't get one in shop until well after I'd already pissed away my money. CovId delays and whatnot.

I still get a fair amount mileage for cleans from my old (early nineties) Mesa Studio Preamp too, which has a decent blackface tone. I never did know what to make of the lead tone. A lot of Mesas also have that 80's smooth hairband distortion sound, for lack of better description. I suppose there's worse, but I never did much care for that aesthetic, personally.

They seem to have hit on something that Cali model though, best i can tell. Well, in any case, if it sucks that bad, it shouldn't take a year to line one up for demoing, right?

Correct me if you know better. If it actually sucks, I should prefer I save this year's bonus check....or apply to better ends. But so far, I remain intrigued...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #81
Lives for gear
 
RedBaaron's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 ➡️
Well yeah, I guess you're right...

...Up until those damn kids start playing in our yards again, and then we're just duty bound to chase 'em off our lawns! (It's tradition.)
Get. Off. My....Lawn!

(I've been waiting to use that one for awhile. It's one of the few, yet principle, benefits of growing older. Alas, one actually has to maintain the lawn for it to inspire any measure of credulity .)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #82
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron ➡️
Since you're an amp man, I hope you don't mind me asking: have you seen or tried the new California Tweed?

I'm not a big Mesa guy either in general, but that Cali has some sick demos! It's nothing like their typical line. More like Vox humped Dumble, then had a menage-a-trios with a 50's Fender Tweed. I tried to get a hold of one a couple years back, but my dealer couldn't get one in shop until well after I'd already pissed away my money. CovId delays and whatnot.

I still get a fair amount mileage for cleans from my old (early nineties) Mesa Studio Preamp too, which has a decent blackface tone. I never did know what to make of the lead tone. A lot of Mesas also have that 80's smooth hairband distortion sound, for lack of better description. I suppose there's worse, but I never did much care for that aesthetic, personally.

They seem to have hit on something that Cali model though, best i can tell. Well, in any case, if it sucks that bad, it shouldn't take a year to line one up for demoing, right?

Correct me if you know better. If it actually sucks, I should prefer I save this year's bonus check....or apply to better ends. But so far, I remain intrigued...
While I don't like the Mesa amps much, I do own about a dozen of them
I dont mind at all the Mk1, Lonestar Special, Mk2C and the Subway Angel (?).
WRT Cali: a couple of my friends/clients own those. They are OK. There is nothing Cali can offer that you cannot get (with more umph) with Lonestar Special. Cali is an attempt of a big Princeton Reverb, which to me sounds a little anaemic. If you can afford a Mk1, you will have a much more versatile amp in my opinion. It is still a "trendy" amp but a classic it is not.
Mesa Studio Preamp? I have the single channel and a dual channel. A BF Fender it is not. Its an attempt to make a version of a Mk2A(?) pre.
There are many more preamps out there which will give you a better tone and versatility. To name my few favourites':
Kingsley Preamps http://kingsleyamplifiers.com/products/pedals/
Victory amp https://www.victoryamps.com/product/v4-the-copper/ (different models on different pages)
Effectrode Preamp https://www.effectrode.com/products/...m-tube-preamp/
R&R https://rnramp.com/navigation/products/dp-13.html

There are others but if you want a great fender (or Marshall) tone this will get you started
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #83
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBaaron ➡️
Get. Off. My....Lawn!

(I've been waiting to use that one for awhile. It's one of the few, yet principle, benefits of growing older. Alas, one actually has to maintain the lawn for it to inspire any measure of credulity .)
The kids are welcome on my lawn - as long as they MOW!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #84
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrateaudio ➡️
I guess it's a genre thing -- but I think there was better musical shredding in the 70s compared to some 80s hair metal guys. Holdsworth was one of the true fast players who kept it musical.

Interesting you use the Soft Machine as an example. When I saw them open for Hendrix they didn't have a guitarist (yet), they were a trio - Hammond organ, bass, and drums. That organist got sounds out of his B3 that Mr. Hammond never dreamed of. Bassist was pretty wild, too!

They really didn't need fancy electronics to be very unique and original. I think the bassist had a Wah pedal...
Old 1 week ago
  #85
Lives for gear
 
norfolk martin's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Reading the " guitarists who use this stuff aren't real players like Hendrix" style comments, I remember exactly the same complaints being raised against Hendrix - " no talent; all noise and electronic effects."


Guitarists are a conservative lot nowadays. They mostly seem to want to use guitars made 60 -65 years ago, through amps made 50-60 years ago, to sound like players who are dead or 70+ years old
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #86
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin ➡️
Reading the " guitarists who use this stuff aren't real players like Hendrix" style comments, I remember exactly the same complaints being raised against Hendrix - " no talent; all noise and electronic effects."
I don't really recall many guitar players saying that, just self-styled music critics. Such critics tend to be highly subjective according to their specific tastes. Example - Lester Bangs considered The Doors as "buffoons" while heralding Iggy and the Stooges as the second coming of Christ. I suspect it's arguable he was more enthralled by performance than music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin ➡️
Guitarists are a conservative lot nowadays. They mostly seem to want to use guitars made 60 -65 years ago, through amps made 50-60 years ago, to sound like players who are dead or 70+ years old
Nowadays? I remember at least a dozen players in just one US town in the 80s looking to install Charlie Christian pickups on just about any guitar you can imagine, even 50s Teles and Martins.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #87
Lives for gear
 
norfolk martin's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
I don't really recall many guitar players saying that, just self-styled music critics. Such critics tend to be highly subjective according to their specific tastes. Example - Lester Bangs considered The Doors as "buffoons" while heralding Iggy and the Stooges as the second coming of Christ. I suspect it's arguable he was more enthralled by performance than music.

.
IMO, being a music critic is the art of writing self-promotion under the guise of appraising someone else's work.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #88
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
I don't really recall many guitar players saying that, just self-styled music critics. Such critics tend to be highly subjective according to their specific tastes. Example - Lester Bangs considered The Doors as "buffoons" while heralding Iggy and the Stooges as the second coming of Christ. I suspect it's arguable he was more enthralled by performance than music.



Nowadays? I remember at least a dozen players in just one US town in the 80s looking to install Charlie Christian pickups on just about any guitar you can imagine, even 50s Teles and Martins.
Lester Bangs was also a well known cough medicine addict. Dextromethorphan, to be exact, found in original formula Romilar. One might say that explains a lot!

And, Enorbet2, the '80s really aren't "nowadays" anymore..... (dammitt!)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #89
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin ➡️
Reading the " guitarists who use this stuff aren't real players like Hendrix" style comments, I remember exactly the same complaints being raised against Hendrix - " no talent; all noise and electronic effects."


Guitarists are a conservative lot nowadays. They mostly seem to want to use guitars made 60 -65 years ago, through amps made 50-60 years ago, to sound like players who are dead or 70+ years old
Guitarists tend to like things that are currently desirable when they are at a certain stage of development (as people) and hang on to those preferences to some degree for their entire lives - that's not to say that they may not evolve and add new stuff, but they'll always have a soft spot for the stuff that was current when they were forging their musical identities.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #90
Lives for gear
 
norfolk martin's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️

And, Enorbet2, the '80s really aren't "nowadays" anymore..... (dammitt!)
I have a young friend who likes to annoy me by pointing that out. When I'm pontificating about "how things work" and give an example, he asks:

"And when did that happen?"

"Errr . . . 'bout 1990"

"You do realize that was 32 years ago, right?"
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 190 views: 39172
Avatar for m127f
m127f 28th February 2017
replies: 52792 views: 3980518
Avatar for ardis
ardis 1 minute ago
replies: 57 views: 6586
Avatar for deng
deng 5th November 2016
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump