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Where Does The Tone Come From In A Guitar Amplifier?
Old 3rd November 2022
  #1
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Where Does The Tone Come From In A Guitar Amplifier?

This should put a cat among the pigeons. His video on guitar tone is possibly even more surprising.

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Old 4th November 2022
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
This should put a cat among the pigeons. His video on guitar tone is possibly even more surprising.

There was another post on this that got a lot of love and hate in roughly equal measure, and got taken down as things got out of hand.

Personally I think it's a fascinating. Folks that hated it seemed to take his "conclusions" more literally than I did.
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Old 4th November 2022
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Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
This should put a cat among the pigeons. His video on guitar tone is possibly even more surprising.

That's an easy question, at least for someone who has worked on guitar amps for over 50 years.

The tone comes from EVERYTHING IN THE AMP, plus the player himself, and his guitar.

EVERYTHING MATTERS!

Some things matter more than others, and some are not obvious to the player. Such as the fact that two components of exactly the same value and ratings may sound quite different tonally in an amp circuit. This was a large part of Howard Dumble's secret concerning how he got his tone. The LAYOUT of the circuit has a effect on the tone. And the effect changes with level, because the layout affects the inductance between components, as well the the construction of each individual part.

You can't come close to summing it up in a single YT video. You actually have to put in time swapping parts and comparing, changing layouts and comparing,

I could probably do a full length MOVIE on the subject, if not a TV series! (It would bore the hell out of anyone who isn't a audio tech, though!)

Most people aren't aware that layout can create "phantom parts" that affect tone and other operating functions.

I have seen an amp (an early Plush) that was an exact copy of a Fender AB763 Twin Reverb that used all original Fender parts that could not function without oscillating. Some of the oscillations were ultrasonic, but the interference made the amp sound TERRIBLE an knocked the audio power down to about 40 watts. The amp had been delivered to Don Wehr's Music City as an actual product but never sold since nobody would buy it. When I started at the store Don asked me if I could do anything with it, but when I explained that I'd have to tear it down an essentialy rebuild from scratch he told me to put it back in the basement where it belonged. I think it was still there when the store closed.
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Old 4th November 2022
  #4
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Dude said he was just a player so many times that I felt like I was watching the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer sketch.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #5
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Originally Posted by G650 ➡️
Dude said he was just a player so many times that I felt like I was watching the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer sketch.
I think that was the gag.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
...You can't come close to summing it up in a single YT video. You actually have to put in time swapping parts and comparing, changing layouts and comparing...
I'm just a performer I don't know anything about circuits, but did you actually watch the video? Seems to me he did quite a bit of that.
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
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Bottom Line - Everything matters and as a collective of influences. It is possible to "swamp" others since each effective component is by degrees. For example, turn a distortion pedal gain up far enough and little else will matter... place a blanket over your speaker and turning up Treble will have little or no effect. Specific to just power tubes, it is quite easy to swap out numerous power tubes like 6V6, 5881, 6L6, 7027A, 6550, and with just one wiring change at the socket on many 6V6/6L6 commercial amps, 6CA7s and EL34s. They ALL sound and feel different... how much different depends on the levels they are driven to. Preamp cranked, Master on 1-2, not much... Preamp on 3-4, Master above 5, a LOT!

I don't know what this guy is hoping to sell but it isn't expertise.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
I think that was the gag.
I hope so
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
I'm just a performer I don't know anything about circuits, but did you actually watch the video? Seems to me he did quite a bit of that.
I don't think you quite understood what I meant. That guy couldn't do what I was talking about.

1.) he's not a solder jockey

2.) He doesn't know enough (anything) about the fine differences between different types of components - like the difference between different types of resistors. Not only things like the difference between carbon, carbon film, metal film, wirewound, etc but also things like the different ways the leads can be attached. The differences are rather subtle, but they're cumulative, and can maker the difference between an average amp and one with "magical tone" (for lack of a better term). Even two amps built from the SAME parts can sound and perform totally different if the physical layout of the circuit is different.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
I don't think you quite understood what I meant. That guy couldn't do what I was talking about.

1.) he's not a solder jockey

2.) He doesn't know enough (anything) about the fine differences between different types of components - like the difference between different types of resistors. Not only things like the difference between carbon, carbon film, metal film, wirewound, etc but also things like the different ways the leads can be attached. The differences are rather subtle, but they're cumulative, and can maker the difference between an average amp and one with "magical tone" (for lack of a better term). Even two amps built from the SAME parts can sound and perform totally different if the physical layout of the circuit is different.
He admits - many times - that he's no expert, but again did you watch the whole video? It seems to me he accepts these things can all make a difference and create a cumulative effect, but perhaps less than many assume.

He also made this video on cab design, debunking a few myths and suggesting a bigger effect than I'd personally considered.

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Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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Can't be, that anyone finds out, that the things are not so mysterious as they are made to believe. Especially when Mr. Epstein must fear, that his position of universal wisdom and know-it-all is in danger. Mr. Epstein still needs to be the keeper of all mysteries regarding guitars and amps. Nobody is allowed to question that. Mr. Epstein, for the question discussed it's irrelevant if someone can solder or not. I can, so I am entitled to tell you that. And it's of no interest that you can name so and so many different types of resistors. Mr. Epstein, work a little bit on your self-esteem, so that you don't need to beg here always and every time for attention.

So... how long are guitarists willing to let them be fooled by con artists and BS-propagandists? Hm. Not my problem.

That dude with his series of videos is spot on. And Mr. Epstein is... well, Mr. Epstein. And that is not enough.
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
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Guitar amp tone comes from everything it's made from. I'm happy to leave the specifics to amp designers. I'll plug in, listen, and give it a thumbs up or down. Then again... I'm just a player.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
Can't be, that anyone finds out, that the things are not so mysterious as they are made to believe.
The physics of sound propagation is not mysterious. It's measurable and quantifiable most often. The only real mystery lies in the fact that hearing is subjective and doesn't lend itself to measurement and quality or quantification.

Back when the Compact Disc format came out many engineers claimed they do everything vinyl or tape does but better, ie: without the noise or distortion. Some musicians and serious listeners claimed they sounded harsh and unnatural. Many engineers said those folks were crazy and deluding themselves since meters said they were the same but better.

Then an audiophile ( a real one, not a rich braggart/poser) who was also an audio electronics engineer tried comparing dynamic response with newer, faster gear tracking FFTs in real time. It was discovered that many ICs had extremely rapid burst distortion way above 20kHz threshold of hearing but that resonated with and altered lower harmonics in the audible spectrum.

As a result of such deeper, faster measurement it was discovered that IC Slew Rates were directly responsible for this burst distortion and the term Transient InterModulation Distortion was born and IC chips with low slew rates stopped being used in quality audio gear like CD Players and the chip industry started making faster ICs.

Point is, it is progressively easier to solve any mysteries in physical gear. As for human consciousness and hearing, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
That dude with his series of videos is spot on. And Mr. Epstein is... well, Mr. Epstein. And that is not enough.
No, he is not spot on since his testing is rather flawed in its limitations. His test methods are somewhat analogous to assuming the conclusion in the premise in Logic. To be clearer, his results are only relevant to how he tested and unless you play gigs exactly like he tested, employing only a looper, his mics and recording gear, with his simple pressed wood cabinets, etc. it isn't what happens when you play on a gig in real world environments.

It should be obvious to anyone who has participated in a professional sound check that simply moving around the room will result in a differing audio experience with exactly the same gear, players, etc. Everything matters even if some influences are subtle while some others can be massive. That balance changes under differing circumstances, including different gear... ALL of it.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
I don't think you quite understood what I meant. That guy couldn't do what I was talking about.

1.) he's not a solder jockey

2.) He doesn't know enough (anything) about the fine differences between different types of components - like the difference between different types of resistors. Not only things like the difference between carbon, carbon film, metal film, wirewound, etc but also things like the different ways the leads can be attached. The differences are rather subtle, but they're cumulative, and can maker the difference between an average amp and one with "magical tone" (for lack of a better term). Even two amps built from the SAME parts can sound and perform totally different if the physical layout of the circuit is different.
What you say is right, having certain capacitors rather than others changes the sound of an amp.
However, that video is about even more macroscopic differences which, in practice, would be irrelevant. A transistor rectification that sounds like a tube rectification? EL84s that sound like 6V6s? 12AX7 sounding like EF86? For real?

That guy is clearly looking for popularity, and he realized that a good way to get it is to speak bad of gear using the myth busting technique.
The wood of the guitars does not matter (video of the air-guitar), the topology of an amp does not matter... maybe in the next episode he will explain that between a Tubescream, a RAT, a fuzzface and a tonebender there's no difference. They all sound the same and whoever buys all these pedals, is a victim of self-suggestion and marketing.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
It should be obvious to anyone who has participated in a professional sound check that simply moving around the room will result in a differing audio experience with exactly the same gear, players, etc. Everything matters even if some influences are subtle while some others can be massive. That balance changes under differing circumstances, including different gear... ALL of it.
Yeah, this pretty much sorts out my take on the whole thing. This stuff is fun, but not sure what anyone is suppose to do with it. Experienced amp designers either already know this stuff, or chuckle at posts like this. Some players watch and go... "Mmmm?" Regular gigging players who work in a lot of different venues and have more than two or three amps that get rotated as needed for what's best in the situation watch and think... "Whatever."

I guess it's fun stuff to think about, and it promotes this dude's YT channel. So, more power... no pun!
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➡️
Can't be, that anyone finds out, that the things are not so mysterious as they are made to believe. Especially when Mr. Epstein must fear, that his position of universal wisdom and know-it-all is in danger. Mr. Epstein still needs to be the keeper of all mysteries regarding guitars and amps. Nobody is allowed to question that. Mr. Epstein, for the question discussed it's irrelevant if someone can solder or not. I can, so I am entitled to tell you that. And it's of no interest that you can name so and so many different types of resistors. Mr. Epstein, work a little bit on your self-esteem, so that you don't need to beg here always and every time for attention.

So... how long are guitarists willing to let them be fooled by con artists and BS-propagandists? Hm. Not my problem.

That dude with his series of videos is spot on. And Mr. Epstein is... well, Mr. Epstein. And that is not enough.
Why should I listen to a guy who can't even spell my name?

BTW, you are in violation of the site rule against personal attacks. Do you have anything FACTUAL to say?
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
Yeah, this pretty much sorts out my take on the whole thing. This stuff is fun, but not sure what anyone is suppose to do with it. Experienced amp designers either already know this stuff, or chuckle at posts like this. Some players watch and go... "Mmmm?" Regular gigging players who work in a lot of different venues and have more than two or three amps that get rotated as needed for what's best in the situation watch and think... "Whatever."

I guess it's fun stuff to think about, and it promotes this dude's YT channel. So, more power... no pun!
It's too bad that YooToob doesn't have rules against misinformation.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loziodavid ➡️
What you say is right, having certain capacitors rather than others changes the sound of an amp.
However, that video is about even more macroscopic differences which, in practice, would be irrelevant. A transistor rectification that sounds like a tube rectification? EL84s that sound like 6V6s? 12AX7 sounding like EF86? For real?

That guy is clearly looking for popularity, and he realized that a good way to get it is to speak bad of gear using the myth busting technique.
The wood of the guitars does not matter (video of the air-guitar), the topology of an amp does not matter... maybe in the next episode he will explain that between a Tubescream, a RAT, a fuzzface and a tonebender there's no difference. They all sound the same and whoever buys all these pedals, is a victim of self-suggestion and marketing.
Except that the real Mythbusters always did everything possible to guarantee the integrity of their date, despite what their pre-existing ideas might have been.

And yes, the guy is obviously pimping for popularity, which obliterates any possibility of impartiality.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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What I have learned is that nothing matters, everything sounds the same. Toobs don't matter, tone woods don't matter, amps vs sims don't matter, IRs vs speakers don't matter, analog vs digital don't matter, hardware vs software don't matter. And if they do, the audience are a buncha morons who can't tell the difference anyway. Gilmour could use a POD, anyone can record master albums very easily at home without all that mess. And anyone who tells you otherwise is just a cranky old boomer overcompensating for testosterone loss.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop ➡️
What I have learned is that nothing matters, everything sounds the same. Toobs don't matter, tone woods don't matter, amps vs sims don't matter, IRs vs speakers don't matter, analog vs digital don't matter, hardware vs software don't matter. And if they do, the audience are a buncha morons who can't tell the difference anyway. Gilmour could use a POD, anyone can record master albums very easily at home without all that mess. And anyone who tells you otherwise is just a cranky old boomer overcompensating for testosterone loss.
What I have learned is that the digital revolution (at least in audio) has done a pretty good job of turning audience audio taste into the audio equivalent of mashed potatoes - you can put all kinds of gravy on top but it's still mashed potatoes.

It's not really that the audience consists of a bunch of morons, it's just that they've been brainwadshed by a deluge of PR crap from various interests...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
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🎧 10 years
Didn't Bill Hicks predict the advent of "corporate approved Rock"?
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
It's too bad that YooToob doesn't have rules against misinformation.
Yeah... can't really do that. Too much subjectivity in this stuff. IDK if this is misinformation as much as superfluous information. Just not sure what anyone is suppose to do with this.
I mean... He didn't know that not all bass mid and treble knobs do the same thing? Seriously? If he doesn't already know that, and know what the specific tone knobs do on the amps he uses, is he qualified to be making a video like this? It's like...

"Hey Guys! I'm going to make a video about why guitars sound like they do. And you know what! I just discovered that if I roll down that knob labeled "TONE" the guitar sound gets... like IDK... Darker! Follow me for more tips!"

OK, that's just one example, but I watched the whole video, and so much of it hit me like this. Like, No $#!t Sherlock! And at times he sounded like a Tucker Carlson commentary... And what it... and what if, etc...

Also, I can't shake the feeling that this is a precursor to a video of his selling a much slicker and cleaned up version of that thing he made; the box with the pedals in it. This all feels like marketing to me. Like WOW... dude hears only a one to five percent difference between all the amps, but when he patches in that thing he made (remember, he's caveman guitarist) it's an 80% difference. OK. Whatever. Am I the only one who smells this. Maybe I'm jaded, IDK.

Alright, I had my say. Off the soapbox.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️



Also, I can't shake the feeling that this is a precursor to a video of his selling a much slicker and cleaned up version of that thing he made; the box with the pedals in it. This all feels like marketing to me. Like WOW... dude hears only a one to five percent difference between all the amps, but when he patches in that thing he made (remember, he's caveman guitarist) it's an 80% difference. OK. Whatever. Am I the only one who smells this. Maybe I'm jaded, IDK.
I actually agree with this part, he totally is.

I do think most of you guys still are missing the broader point he was making though.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G650 ➡️
I actually agree with this part, he totally is.

I do think most of you guys still are missing the broader point he was making though.
OK, cool. What would you think is a broad point that he's making? Not saying there is not one. I just didn't catch it. Is it that there's very little difference between guitar amp sounds, if you adjust the controls?

One thing that confuses me about these videos is they always lean on distorted tones. Distorted tones tend to be similar, because square, clipped waves are square clipped waves. Not the same, but similar. I hear guitar amp tone when I'm running an amp as clean as it can possibly be.

And in that situation, the guitar is probably 50% of the tone (of course speaker and cabinet size make a huge difference). Also, the player makes a huge part of the tone when playing clean. You can hear pick differences, fingers in the mix, dynamics of one string to another, all the stuff that gets buried with overdrive. When in OD, the guitarist plays a smaller and smaller part in creating the tone, as the OD gets more severe.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
OK, cool. What would you think is a broad point that he's making? Not saying there is not one. I just didn't catch it. Is it that there's very little difference between guitar amp sounds, if you adjust the controls?

One thing that confuses me about these videos is they always lean on distorted tones. Distorted tones tend to be similar, because square, clipped waves are square clipped waves. Not the same, but similar. I hear guitar amp tone when I'm running an amp as clean as it can possibly be.

And in that situation, the guitar is probably 50% of the tone (of course speaker and cabinet size make a huge difference). Also, the player makes a huge part of the tone when playing clean. You can hear pick differences, fingers in the mix, dynamics of one string to another, all the stuff that gets buried with overdrive. When in OD, the guitarist plays a smaller and smaller part in creating the tone, as the OD gets more severe.
Actually, it doesn't confuse me at all. They use distorted tones because it helps them make their "point". Whereas clean tones would expose their fallacies.
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
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a lot of it comes from the speaker imo, that's going to make the biggest difference.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist ➡️
a lot of it comes from the speaker imo, that's going to make the biggest difference.
Yeah, that really is where I hear a very significant difference. There are very recognizable tones between say Vox, Fender and Hi-Watt amps, but they really are characteristics for guitar players to notice. Speaker differences seem far more significant and noticeable to even casual listeners. If you want to significantly change the sound of an amp with one big action, change the speaker. That's been my experienced anyway.
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop ➡️
What I have learned is that nothing matters, everything sounds the same. Toobs don't matter, tone woods don't matter, amps vs sims don't matter, IRs vs speakers don't matter, analog vs digital don't matter, hardware vs software don't matter. And if they do, the audience are a buncha morons who can't tell the difference anyway. Gilmour could use a POD, anyone can record master albums very easily at home without all that mess. And anyone who tells you otherwise is just a cranky old boomer overcompensating for testosterone loss.
Jesus Christ, dude!! You made my day 🤣🤣
I can't stop laughing, definitely the best message read on this sub-forum 🤣
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
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🎧 10 years
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.

Last edited by Sibben; 4 weeks ago at 01:00 PM..
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Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben ➡️
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.
So, this is a video made for total newbies who obsess over nitro finish and grill cloth fabric thinking that they make huge differences? I think seasoned players know this, and don't get caught up in this crap. This is not news. You haven't read or understood the thread if you think that people here dismissing this video are elitist snobs who were taken to school by this guy.

He spent a lot of time and effort here creating a video that says nothing to any guitarist who gigs a few nights a week and understands his or her gear. When I see something like that happen, it's a flag. Note that he does pretty much null everything, until he gets to that thing he put together that he claims make an 80% difference in tone. He is ramping up to sell something with this video. Maybe that "tackle box" that's sponsored by his PayPal email address? The 80% thing?
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