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Where Does The Tone Come From In A Guitar Amplifier?
Old 8th November 2022 | Show parent
  #31
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G650's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
OK, cool. What would you think is a broad point that he's making? Not saying there is not one. I just didn't catch it. Is it that there's very little difference between guitar amp sounds, if you adjust the controls?

One thing that confuses me about these videos is they always lean on distorted tones. Distorted tones tend to be similar, because square, clipped waves are square clipped waves. Not the same, but similar. I hear guitar amp tone when I'm running an amp as clean as it can possibly be.

And in that situation, the guitar is probably 50% of the tone (of course speaker and cabinet size make a huge difference). Also, the player makes a huge part of the tone when playing clean. You can hear pick differences, fingers in the mix, dynamics of one string to another, all the stuff that gets buried with overdrive. When in OD, the guitarist plays a smaller and smaller part in creating the tone, as the OD gets more severe.

In simple terms "listen with your ears and not your eyes". Which I think almost everyone needs reminding of at some point.

To be fair I'm not sure he exactly understands what he is saying either.

I agree a lot on your second point too.
Old 8th November 2022 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben ➡️
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.
To repeat:
Quote:
. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.
Which is why I generally ignore them, in a nutshell. I've worked with enough gigging musicians on all levels of the industry to know that quite often the guitarist is the last person to understand how his tone is generated. That's why people like Toni Iommi spend thousands of dollars flying "super techs" like (the late) Dawk Stillwell to come out for a couple days every week or so to go over their amps.

Some musicians do quite well with tech - but they're extremely rare. It's kinda like being both a world selling guitarist and a respected astronomer. It's possible, but they're really quite different disciplines.

As to the question of finish sometimes affecting tone:

If you're a typical rock guitarist who plays with a lot of distortion/ and/or effects you won't think it affects tone, because your damn distortion and processing is destroying any tonal difference that might be there.

D'OH!!!!

To hear such relatively subtle differences you must play clean, so you're not obliterating the more subtle tonal effects of the guitar.
Old 8th November 2022 | Show parent
  #33
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58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben ➡️
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.
And you appear to be missing the point that the way you use your equipment can make many factors inaudible that may be extremely important to other musicians who use their equipment differently.
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Old 8th November 2022
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
This should put a cat among the pigeons. His video on guitar tone is possibly even more surprising.

Much more likely to set the dogs chasing the cat.
Old 8th November 2022 | Show parent
  #35
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Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben ➡️
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.

Elitist snob or not, it isn't the experienced guitarist who switches and mucks with gear unnecessarily or buys into snake oil, can't waste time and money like that. Personally I play the same amp (and cabs, and guitar) 99% of the time, for all genres.

The amps I use most, simple circuits from the 50s and 60s, all on the same cabs, are very sensitive to small changes, and I can definitely hear the differences between a tube and solid state rectifier, or 6L6 vs. EL34 or KT66/88 tubes. I would not call them subtle differences. It is possible the differences are more evident on these old amps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
the way you use your equipment can make many factors inaudible that may be extremely important to other musicians who use their equipment differently.
This is such an important statement and sums up most of the arguments here.
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Old 8th November 2022 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 10 years
90% of things that people claim make a huge difference, in fact make no significant difference, as was demonstrated in the video. No wonder that many don't like that.
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Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by G650 ➡️
In simple terms "listen with your ears and not your eyes". Which I think almost everyone needs reminding of at some point.

To be fair I'm not sure he exactly understands what he is saying either.

I agree a lot on your second point too.
I've had these same experiences as he is demonstrating here in this video... that basically, distorted amps all sound very similar. Clean amps sound far less similar to one another. I think he knows exactly what he's doing. It's nothing to do with educating the world on how to listen to guitar amps.

Think about it. Why would someone make a video like this? Some kind of social obligation to remind the guitar playing world to hear with their ears? Makes no sense. People don't do that. There's always a longer game when spending this much time putting something together. I think we all know what that long game is.
Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
Bottom Line - Everything matters and as a collective of influences. It is possible to "swamp" others since each effective component is by degrees. For example, turn a distortion pedal gain up far enough and little else will matter... place a blanket over your speaker and turning up Treble will have little or no effect. Specific to just power tubes, it is quite easy to swap out numerous power tubes like 6V6, 5881, 6L6, 7027A, 6550, and with just one wiring change at the socket on many 6V6/6L6 commercial amps, 6CA7s and EL34s. They ALL sound and feel different... how much different depends on the levels they are driven to. Preamp cranked, Master on 1-2, not much... Preamp on 3-4, Master above 5, a LOT!

I don't know what this guy is hoping to sell but it isn't expertise.
Agree 👍
Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibben ➡️
Seems lots of folks totally missed his point. Either they did not watch it or he made them so defensive they stopped listening.

The only thing he’s saying is that some things affect tone a lot and some things less so or not at all. He’s upfront with the fact it’s just his home made tests that you take at face value and he never claims any objective truth.

Pickups, amount of gain, shape and size of cab; all these things make a big difference. But some things that people sweat over, like guitar finish have little or no influence.

Of course any change makes some kind of difference. And even minuscule differences taken together can impact tone. BUT, and that’s the point, if the amount of gain you feed you amp makes 75% of the character and the fabric of grill cloth makes 0.05%, wise people will spend their time improving playing technique rather than chasing down a rare piece of equipment.

The music industry is so full of superstition and snake oil peddlers it seems like the middle ages at times. He’s a gigging musician and I guess he just wanted to ask the question if he really needs to haul around fifty different guitars and amps. To many people, judging from the popularity, his answer was a liberating one. But I guess to a small number of elitist snobs it was like a kick in the balls.
It seems to me that you missed the point.

The conclusion of that video is not that guitar finish has a minimal impact on the sound. Everyone knows this, and anyone looking for a nitrofinish does it essentially for "historical correctness" of an instrument, because a 1957 Stratocaster painted with polyurethane finish, it's like a 1957 Ford Mustang with satellite navigator and Android Auto.

The conclusion of the video, instead, is that:
- bias
- preamp tubes
- rectification
- power tubes

have no impact on the sound.
If you listen carefully to those clips, when he switches from 12AX7 to EF86, the sound doesn't change at all. Anyone who has a done a little bit of "tube rolling" , knows that there are differences between 12AX7 tubes produced by different brands. A JJ sounds different than a Tungsol, and both sound different from a Telefunken. If this is true, imagine what differences there can be between two totally different types of tubes like 12AX7 and EF86, or EL84 and 6V6, with different gain, transconductance, plate current, cathode current, etc....

It is the usual trend of "everything sounds the same", which today is so popular among guitarists. The 2.0 evolution of the "tone is in the hand"....
It is a shame because the massive diffusione of the internet could represent a great opportunity for evolution and knowledge for guitarists, instead we are going back.
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Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
He spent a lot of time and effort here creating a video that says nothing to any guitarist who gigs a few nights a week and understands his or her gear.
I'm in that camp and I think of his videos as being extremely interesting.
But then, I happen to dig any kind of mythbusting - which isn't exactly en vogue @ GS.
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Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #41
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1 Review written
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loziodavid ➡️

The conclusion of the video, instead, is that:
- bias
- preamp tubes
- rectification
- power tubes

have no impact on the sound.
That may be your conclusion, but it's not what he said.

His point was that those 4 things are not what gives an amp its most recognisable characteristic sound. That this comes from where in the signal chain frequencies and gain are modified by the amp design.

Does his video prove this beyond doubt? Of course not, it was entertainment!

Does his video give some useful information to a noob buying an amp? Yes. Which is that describing an amp, based on those four design choices alone doesn't tell you very much, therefore choosing one based on those four factors is not a good idea.

if you were selling amps and a customer said to you "I love the sound of a 12AX7 with a fixed bias, tell me what amps have that", you would think you were dealing with someone that had done a lot of googling and not much playing - and you would probably be right.

In his intro he says "when electric guitars are plugged into an amp they get really loud". That should give you a clue to who the video is aimed at. If you know this already, it's probably not for you...

Getting upset at this video is like a Physics Professor getting upset that young kids are taught that light travels in straight lines.
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Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
I'm in that camp and I think of his videos as being extremely interesting.
But then, I happen to dig any kind of mythbusting - which isn't exactly en vogue @ GS.
I generally love myth busting stuff too. Was a huge fan of The Amazing Randy.
And I do agree with some of the busting going on in this video. But I think he overreached; vastly oversimplified the basic concept that amps CAN sound very similar.

Power amps are basically power amps. The possibility that power amps sound similar is no revelation. Did that surprise you? It should not have.

But guitar amps are not just power amps. They are a collection of things like cabinets, tone stacks, speaker choice, sensitivity from gain structure, etc...

And we use different amps differently. We don't bust butt trying to make them all sound the same, as he did here. Different amps, and different ways of creating distortion (really, that's what he's focusing on here) share, as he certainly pointed out, do a lot of very similar aspects. I can make a Les Paul sound very similar to a Strat at certain settings with with a lot of different amps. What does that mean? What does it suggest?

Thing is, guitar amps are more complex conglomerations of stuff that can be exploited by the user. Suggesting that I can't do anything different with a Naylor vs a Blues Jr is ridiculous. I have guitars that react totally differently to my old Deluxe vs a custom made amp that I have. And the Naylor works really well with some guitars in some rooms, and not so well with other guitars. I don't think of my guitar amps as just the amp circuit. And I don't use them that way.

The point of this video is to create a problem seeking a solution. And the solution is held up for all to see at the end of the video. "The Tackle-Box"[/I] (patent pending... wait for it). Not that I'm against inventing and marketing. Go forth and sell stuff, by all means. I just have an active BS meter when it comes to someone trying to tell me that he has new info I need regarding something I've been doing for 40 years, and understand extremely well.

So, I ask... what are you planning on doing with his conclusions, if you think this video contains valuable information? Throw out your amps except one? Make your own "tackle box?" He never really says how. It's just a pedals and "breadboards?" So, he moved his pedalboard into a box with exterior controls? How is this video useful to anyone?

And if you doubt this is a marketing video, watch it again at 14:10. I teach production for my main living. That's a textbook marking move right there dude. This is also a persuasive speech with the actual call to action cleverly left out... this time. 14:10 is the signpost transition to the conclusion.
And we know how to show him that we are interested; we donate a few bucks to his PayPal account, which was prominently displayed. This video is marketing 201.
Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #43
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loziodavid's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis ➡️
That may be your conclusion, but it's not what he said.

His point was that those 4 things are not what gives an amp its most recognisable characteristic sound. That this comes from where in the signal chain frequencies and gain are modified by the amp design.
Wow, very useful video...
I thought that by swapping power tubes on my Hiwatt, I could make it sound like a Mesa Mark IIC+ !!

You are right, but these things are taken for granted. We know that most of the tone of a guitar amp comes from the tone stack and the whole circuit. Nothing new. I think no one on the planet Earth has ever thought that by changing the power tubes to his Twin Reverb, could make it sound like a JCM800.
Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis ➡️
Getting upset at this video is like a Physics Professor getting upset that young kids are taught that light travels in straight lines.
Usually...
Old 9th November 2022 | Show parent
  #45
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Gruner's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
So, I ask... what are you planning on doing with his conclusions, if you think this video contains valuable information?
- Tube powered grill cloth
- Reliced humans (teen singer looks like Pete Rose)
- Prosthetic extra finger (can play all five strings on bass at the same time)
- Attitude sims: audience sees "cool" even if you are a doofus
- Coin operated amp tone (Behringer)
- New age tone: you just have to imagine it
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Old 9th November 2022
  #46
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Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Case in point:

I have very similar amps, both vintage 100w Marshall JTMs, one with EL34 power tubes (Mullards), one with KT66s (Gold Lions). Made the same year with different transformers. The preamp tubes are all the same Mullards from the same era. It is my understanding there was a KT66 boomertoob pockyclipse, so they switched to EL34s on more or less the same amp.

They are two completely different sounding amps. The KT66 amp does not break up at all until brutal volume, and even then not as much. When pushed with a boost or distortion pedal at this volume, it has a voice like no other amp I have ever heard. So visceral and dynamic, like a human voice. It is the sound of early Clapton and Hendrix. The Hiwatts I have with these same tubes (the voice of Gilmour) share these characteristics.

The EL34 amp is much more like a later Marshall, much gainier and more agressive, sharp , biting, sparkly, whereas the KT66 is thick, rounded and mellow, tweedy. It is sort of the best of both worlds, it has the aggression of a later Plexi but still has the pleasant compression, familiar character and articulation of a JTM. Zeppelin and Sabbath just fall out of the amp without intention, it is that sound.

Along with the tweed Bassman, which has characteristics all its own I attribute from experience to the power tubes, these are easily my favorite amps ever made, the two flavors of the 100w Marshall JTM.

These differences are not as evident in every amp, I have certainly swapped types of power tubes on amps with no discernible difference.
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
There's always a longer game when spending this much time putting something together. I think we all know what that long game is.
Conspiracy stuff.

Last edited by Sascha Franck; 10th November 2022 at 06:07 AM..
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
So, I ask... what are you planning on doing with his conclusions, if you think this video contains valuable information?
Just the same as I already did before. For me, this video (and some other videos of him) are just confirming what I pretty much suspected for a long time already - or rather, that what I'm doing for a rather long time already, wasn't all too wrong, namely stacking gain an EQ stages to get the most out of a few rather simple things. Which would also be the takeaway some folks could get from this video (except most people on GS as it seems).
And jfwiw: Isn't it quite a coincidence that on my pedalboard there's 3 instances of an RC boost (well, they're smaller clones, but I own the original, too) working? They're allowing me to modify certain base tones with ease and in pretty much any direction.

Quote:
Throw out your amps except one? Make your own "tackle box?" He never really says how.
If you watched the video carefully, you'd know how. At least you'd know the basic concept.

Quote:
It's just a pedals and "breadboards?"
Sure is.

Quote:
And if you doubt this is a marketing video, watch it again at 14:10. I teach production for my main living. That's a textbook marking move right there dude. This is also a persuasive speech with the actual call to action cleverly left out... this time. 14:10 is the signpost transition to the conclusion.
Well, let's just wait and see whether he'd come up with an amp he's planning to sell.
And even if so: What exactly would be wrong with that?

Apart from that, as he also did videos about guitar tone, guitar sustain and guitar strings, following your logic, the guy will as well come up with a series of Jim Lill guitars and strings, right?

You don't seem to believe people have a genuine interest in these kinda things, right?

Quote:
And we know how to show him that we are interested; we donate a few bucks to his PayPal account, which was prominently displayed.
Well, why would you not donate some bucks to someone spending loads of time on stuff you find very interesting? I know, you don't, but he's not forcing you to pay anything.

Quote:
This video is marketing 201.
No. Just no.
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #49
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Moonwhistle's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop ➡️
Case in point:

I have very similar amps, both vintage 100w Marshall JTMs, one with EL34 power tubes (Mullards), one with KT66s (Gold Lions). Made the same year with different transformers. The preamp tubes are all the same Mullards from the same era. It is my understanding there was a KT66 boomertoob pockyclipse, so they switched to EL34s on more or less the same amp.

They are two completely different sounding amps. The KT66 amp does not break up at all until brutal volume, and even then not as much. When pushed with a boost or distortion pedal at this volume, it has a voice like no other amp I have ever heard. So visceral and dynamic, like a human voice. It is the sound of early Clapton and Hendrix. The Hiwatts I have with these same tubes (the voice of Gilmour) share these characteristics.

The EL34 amp is much more like a later Marshall, much gainier and more agressive, sharp , biting, sparkly, whereas the KT66 is thick, rounded and mellow, tweedy. It is sort of the best of both worlds, it has the aggression of a later Plexi but still has the pleasant compression, familiar character and articulation of a JTM. Zeppelin and Sabbath just fall out of the amp without intention, it is that sound.

Along with the tweed Bassman, which has characteristics all its own I attribute from experience to the power tubes, these are easily my favorite amps ever made, the two flavors of the 100w Marshall JTM.

These differences are not as evident in every amp, I have certainly swapped types of power tubes on amps with no discernible difference.
Yep.

I liked his video on cabinets and guitar construction. But this one misses a lot of factors.

I love the KT66 JTM45. For me that is the right JTM45 sound.
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #50
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enorbet2's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle ➡️
Yep.

I liked his video on cabinets and guitar construction. But this one misses a lot of factors.

I love the KT66 JTM45. For me that is the right JTM45 sound.
I have to agree that combination is in my top 10. However in my top 3 there is a '59 Twin that I bought with a blown power transformer. Going for clean power with a more Marshall-y character, I replaced that PT with a Triad PT that resulted in 496VDC plate voltage and rebiased for KT77s (thus my avatar and unbelievably loud and awesome). In the annals of "the one that got away" a studio guitarist begged me relentlessly for 4 months to sell it to him and unfortunately I finally caved.

He replaced the Triad higher voltage PT with one from a Tweed Bassman Reissue which I thought at first was near sacrilege. The lower voltage softened those KT77s right up into this incredible slightly spongy feel that I had to admit, though less aggressive, was far more musical.

And I said I wasn't gonna cry <sigh>
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
Just the same as I already did before. For me, this video (and some other videos of him) are just confirming what I pretty much suspected for a long time already - or rather, that what I'm doing for a rather long time already, wasn't all too wrong, namely stacking gain an EQ stages to get the most out of a few rather simple things. Which would also be the takeaway some folks could get from this video (except most people on GS as it seems).
And jfwiw: Isn't it quite a coincidence that on my pedalboard there's 3 instances of an RC boost (well, they're smaller clones, but I own the original, too) working? They're allowing me to modify certain base tones with ease and in pretty much any direction.
OK. I wasn't being facetious or sarcastic in asking. I truly was interested in what you would do with the info in this video. I think what you describe here is what every seasoned player does already, all the time. I do this every time I play. Did it last night at a gig. So... "Stacking gain and EQ stages?" You mean using OD pedals and adjusting tone knobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
If you watched the video carefully, you'd know how. At least you'd know the basic concept.
No. No idea at all. Breadboards? What's on them. What do they do? How are they connected to pedals? I watched carefully a few times, and he spent about 10 seconds describing what's in there. He might have spent less time detailing why amps all sound the same, and more on how to construct your own "tackle box."
I've got or have used RC Booster. And 808, Boss OD, Blackstone Appliances, TS9, Bluesdriver, Ratt, Wampler, etc... Is there something special about the RC? Seems like just another OD pedal. Nice one, but just another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
Well, let's just wait and see whether he'd come up with an amp he's planning to sell.
And even if so: What exactly would be wrong with that?
100% agree. Nothing wrong with that. Let's see that Tacklebox, all cleaned up and ready for prime time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
Apart from that, as he also did videos about guitar tone, guitar sustain and guitar strings, following your logic, the guy will as well come up with a series of Jim Lill guitars and strings, right?
I don't follow this stuff, so unaware of this. Maybe he just loves tinkering and making videos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
You don't seem to believe people have a genuine interest in these kinda things, right?
It seems at odds with itself. It's presents as an in-depth video on the origins of tone... a real tone-quester video. And then it spends a massive amount of time suggesting that amps don't matter, and shows this box he made that does matter. OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
Well, why would you not donate some bucks to someone spending loads of time on stuff you find very interesting? I know, you don't, but he's not forcing you to pay anything.
Yeah, that's cool. I'm in no way against private enterprise. You're completely right. It's up to the individual, and if he can collect some income for his time doing this, I'm all for it. I just know this as a classic method of name farming... which are far more valuable than the few bucks people donate. The box is already "branded." It's "The Tacklebox." Why did he make a point of that? Just being clever? Why did he hold it up and display it at the end of the video, and why did the video go to black for a second before he "presented/introduced" it the first time. IDK if you make professional videos, but these things have to be scripted. They don't just happen.

To be clear, I'm not against any of it. More power to him. I just like to see and call things as they are, not as what they appear to be. No conspiracies. Just is what it is. He seems to be a likable guy, and is a good player. Godspeed to him, whatever his plan.
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Old 10th November 2022
  #52
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Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle ➡️
Yep.

I liked his video on cabinets and guitar construction. But this one misses a lot of factors.

I love the KT66 JTM45. For me that is the right JTM45 sound.
Three chords. A demo with such limited playing seems kinda useless and silly to me. Probably many amps sound similar or the same when you change those things, but this video doesn't prove it. I am no tech but I think it depends on the amp. And the tubes. Also, you guys will probably call this total cork sniffing, but especially with vintage style amps and low output pickups, anything in chain between guitar to amp to cabs can substantially alter things. A demo with a reamper, splitter, looper, attenuator, any pedals in the chain, is not necessarily getting everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
I have to agree that combination is in my top 10. However in my top 3 there is a '59 Twin that I bought with a blown power transformer. Going for clean power with a more Marshall-y character, I replaced that PT with a Triad PT that resulted in 496VDC plate voltage and rebiased for KT77s (thus my avatar and unbelievably loud and awesome). In the annals of "the one that got away" a studio guitarist begged me relentlessly for 4 months to sell it to him and unfortunately I finally caved.

He replaced the Triad higher voltage PT with one from a Tweed Bassman Reissue which I thought at first was near sacrilege. The lower voltage softened those KT77s right up into this incredible slightly spongy feel that I had to admit, though less aggressive, was far more musical.

And I said I wasn't gonna cry <sigh>
The amp which haunts me the most is this '78 custom 200w Hiwatt I played once with KT88s. It leveled entire landscapes. An army which carries this amp before it is invincible. I still have gothic nightmares about it. Good ones. Not joking. Although more aggressive and ballsy than anything I ever heard, also incredibly smooth, spongy, musical. I played it for only one set, but it hangs in my brain as the best amp ever.

Last edited by Snorktop; 10th November 2022 at 06:16 PM..
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #53
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro ➡️
I think what you describe here is what every seasoned player does already, all the time. I do this every time I play. Did it last night at a gig. So... "Stacking gain and EQ stages?" You mean using OD pedals and adjusting tone knobs?
See below...

Quote:
No. No idea at all. Breadboards? What's on them. What do they do?
How are they connected to pedals? I watched carefully a few times, and he spent about 10 seconds describing what's in there. He might have spent less time detailing why amps all sound the same, and more on how to construct your own "tackle box."
I'm sure they're basically there to interconnect things and to make the front control panel work. Doesn't matter much, though.

Quote:
I've got or have used RC Booster. And 808, Boss OD, Blackstone Appliances, TS9, Bluesdriver, Ratt, Wampler, etc... Is there something special about the RC? Seems like just another OD pedal. Nice one, but just another.
Well, seems you don't know the RC Booster too well after all. Comparing it to any other overdrive pedal is just not working in this context.

Unlike other drive pedals, the RCB doesn't have much (if any) of its own character. Basically it's a boost with a B/T tonestack thrown in. And then there's a slapped in drive - but that drive isn't anything to write home about, which makes it perfect for certain endeavours.
When you boost another drive thing (regardless whether it's a pedal or an amp) with the RCB, the character of that drive stage will very largely stay intact as long as you don't touch the tone controls. Even if you push the gain on the RCB, the character of the following drive stage will still be the main tonal ingredient of the overall sound.
Pushing pretty much any drive stage with an RCB is almost identical to just adding more gain to the following stage (and because the RCB has it's own drive stage, this also works very well without raising the output level too much, which makes it extremely handy when dealing with multiple drives).
If you wanted, I could post some sound examples.

Whatever, that's a *fundamental* difference compared to all the other overdrive pedals you've mentioned - all of which coming with their own character (which obviously is what you usually want).

Stacking RCBs is pretty much like having free access to any kind of tone/gain shaping. Want some more midrangy, gnarly drive character? Back up B and T and boost the following gain stage. Then use the tone controls of the second one to control the overall frequency shape.
Or you could just massively boost the treble range, so you'd get a nice, creamy drive which will stay tight on the low end. Again, use the second or third RCB instance to control the overall frequency shape.
It'd only get better in case the RCB had a mid control, but in case you've got multiple units, you can easily abuse one as a mid-controlling circuit.

All that simply doesn't work with your run-of-the-mill overdrive box as pretty much all of them have their own character that you can't dial out easily (if at all).

As you can see, this is pretty much completely different from any other typical pedalboard gain stacking.

Quote:
I don't follow this stuff, so unaware of this. Maybe he just loves tinkering and making videos.
Quite defenitely. And plenty of his stuff is pretty interesting, at least to me.

Quote:
And then it spends a massive amount of time suggesting that amps don't matter, and shows this box he made that does matter. OK.
No, it doesn't. Compared to the overall length of the video, his box is only presented for a pretty short time.

Quote:
IDK if you make professional videos, but these things have to be scripted. They don't just happen.
So what? Even if he plans to sell this thing, it doesn't change one bit to the informational value of the video (in case it's not informational to you, fine).
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brk303 ➡️
90% of things that people claim make a huge difference, in fact make no significant difference, as was demonstrated in the video. No wonder that many don't like that.
They only don't make a significant difference if the way you play and set up your amp and FX negate them.

As far as "demonstrated in the video" is concerned, I can set up a video to "prove" or "disprove" almost anything.
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #55
Gear Maniac
 
brk303's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well, he does not sell anything, or have any bias or predetermined goal of the test, so I find the results realistic.

And the conclusion is that the schematic, order of gain/eq stages is the most important factor (if we ignore speakers).

And honestly, it also makes more sense than mythical stuff spread on the forums.
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brk303 ➡️
Well, he does not sell anything, or have any bias or predetermined goal of the test, so I find the results realistic.
Are you clairvoyant? How do you know he has no bias or predetermined goal?

Quote:
And the conclusion is that the schematic, order of gain/eq stages is the most important factor (if we ignore speakers).
No, not exactly. I'd say that the actual ELECTRONIC DESIGN of the various stages (there are stages that are NOT "gain" stages that are part of the audio path) are of paramount importance.

Quote:
And honestly, it also makes more sense than mythical stuff spread on the forums
Well, it's probably simplified to the point where you can understand it, even if it does leave all the really important stuff out.

BTW, I just briefly revisited that video - He definitely has predetermined bias, even if he is nor aware of it himself.

And his understanding of amp design is somewhat rudimentary. And there's no such thing as a successful guitar amp with no EQ - even if there are no tone controls on the front panel. Flat response amps generally don't sound very good for guitar, as most anyone who has tried to play electric guitar through a home stereo can testify.
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #57
Lives for gear
 
enorbet2's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brk303 ➡️
Well, he does not sell anything, or have any bias or predetermined goal of the test,
YET! You do realize the very fact that we are still discussing (and linking ! ) this video at length and I'm sure other sites are a well, is substantially affecting his monetization? Content creators that make a splash, and controversy can be a huge draw, can result in many thousands of dollars in one year. He isn't a chick on Tik Tok taking pictures of her feet but still....

Quote:
Originally Posted by brk303 ➡️
And honestly, it also makes more sense than mythical stuff spread on the forums.
How do you differentiate Myth from Art and Science? Myth is basically anecdotal "say so". Science involves objective, repeatable, falsifiable measurement. Even Art has quantifiable measures in addition to the subjective mystery.

Please notice that many of those here saying this video (not all his, but this one for sure) is useless have the training, experience and instruments to make such objective measurements. Many of us also have played out professionally with decades of ear training and our ears just expand on and confirm what our instruments measure.

I saw and heard Eddie Van Halen backstage noodling through a Peavey Backstage 30 and it was instantly obvious it was Eddie playing. Do you really imagine Eddie would have sounded as good in concert with say 10x or even 20x Backstage 30s as he did with his highly customized rigs? Incidentally he had a preference for certain power tubes. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
No, not exactly. I'd say that the actual ELECTRONIC DESIGN of the various stages (there are stages that are NOT "gain" stages that are part of the audio path) are of paramount importance.
You didn't really watch the video, did you?
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Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
Please notice that many of those here saying this video (not all his, but this one for sure) is useless have the training, experience and instruments to make such objective measurements.
1) No, it's not "many". It's less than a handful of usual suspects.
2) Whether their experience is real, at least occasionally appears as questionable. At least some of that "experienced talk" has already been debunked as nonsense for more than once, so that point is rather meaningless.
Old 11th November 2022 | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
Gruner's Avatar
 
No big deal.

It was an interesting video. Yes -- scale back a Ferrari and a Golf and eventually you arrive at a piston, which doesn't look much different than any other. Scale back an amp to a speaker cone, and that speaker cone could sound the same as all the others. Yet, amps sound way different. So we went though all that to arrive at that. Ok. Cool.

Youtube is as much a business medium as music streaming is, so it shouldn't be any surprise that some people see the "angle" side of something like this, while others see an informative message. Some people see religion, others baloney.

Whatevs.
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