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New guitar players: 90% give up with a year. Why ?
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #91
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🎧 15 years
Keyboards deliver more sound options for much less money and are easier to learn. And they don´t produce weird sounds when you sit close to a computer.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #92
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Snorktop's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone ➡️
I thought more on my OP question, and reflected upon the poster replies (thanks !).

Maybe, a cause of the problem is that there is a situation of cognitive dissonance for lots of young guitar beginners: common depictions of famous rock guitarists show often drug addled, 24-24 baked, giddy players who seem to live on fun, parties, girls, etc...

This depiction is conflicting with the reality of what it is to become a "famous" or successful rock guitarist, meaning that the reality underneath these players shown on stage all blasted, having a great time, playing with ease and abandon, really is uncounted hours and years of repetitive/boring, painful practice, and arduous technique exercises, dedication, and perseverance in order to get there.

This aspect is hardly ever mentioned in mainstream music media, and even less so by the players themselves....

So maybe many youth starting guitar are unaware of this aspect, and when confronted with this "cold" reality, just throw the towel with disgust.

In truth, it's hard to imagine these guys quietly sitting with their guitar, concentrated on learning chords and scales...



This is so true. What you never see are the countless hours Hendrix or Eddie Van Halen or Stevie Ray sat meticulously practicing with the guitar unplugged.

Being a musician takes dedication, discipline, perseverance, things lacking in today's hobbyist. The hobby today is more about consumerism and buying gear than actually playing anyway. It does not impact the music scene much if at all.

And the electric guitar is a particularly difficult instrument without an old tradition.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #93
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AfterViewer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Shredding looks effortless for young viewers who aspire to be guitar legends. I'm sure that YouTube vids that are bridging the gap for female artists have contributed to many electric guitar sales.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dME5phYqAMY
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterViewer ➡️
[. . .] bridging the gap for female artists [. . .]
Craig Ogden and The Commander-In-Chief shredding Paganini's Caprice 24. . .




The number of talented female guitarists is not close to small.

- Ray H.
Old 29th September 2022
  #95
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enorbet2's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Those new, young, female shredders are quite decent. How 'bout an old man with speed, precision and passion?

Old 29th September 2022
  #96
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🎧 5 years
You have to have the right kind of drive to succeed in music.
Unlike the song, Rock and Roll Heaven, proposes, the best band is in Hell, not Heaven, because in Heaven, the "music" will be dogs barking, cats howling, babies crying and garbage trucks emptying bins at 2am, and it will be the BEST thing you ever heard, for in Heaven, there will be no judgements.

So my reason for this story is, to be a great musician you must accept judgement from yourself and others, which isn't always pleasant to hear, and not everyone is up for it.
I'm kind of somewhere in the middle as these things go.
I am self critical, yet I'm also capable of telling the formal grade system where to go.
I do know my theory, yet sometimes I just ignore it, noodle around and see what I get.
A number of my original songs are outside theory with unusual harmonies. If I take the time to work it all out I can see where some theory fits, yet some of them I can't even say what key they may be in.

Anyway, I work for myself as a professional busker, and much of my repertoire, is well known cover songs using perfectly conventional chords, fitting in regular keys.

I'm not the fastest or most technical player, yet people like my sound, because I play pretty cleanly with a tight rhythm.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #97
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGJ22 ➡️

Tuning down (or up) in order to teach a song...simply because the teacher cannot play it correctly is a major detriment to skill set improvement.

This is particularly prevalent in flat keys.
.
I hope you ment "the student cant play it correctly" in the original key. No on who has to change key to be able to play a piece should be teaching at all.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #98
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Gruner's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyG ➡️
...the best band is in Hell, not Heaven, because in Heaven, the "music" will be dogs barking, cats howling, babies crying and garbage trucks emptying bins at 2am, and it will be the BEST thing you ever heard, for in Heaven, there will be no judgements
I'm afraid you lost me with this little ditty. Garbage trucks in Heaven?
Old 29th September 2022
  #99
Gear Guru
 
henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah. This is the problem with guitar players. It wonderful in the sense that we as a group are less beholden to the legacy of the tried and true, which can be a stop gap to creativity. It CAN BE, but doesn't have to be. Building on what's already known is generally the surest way of getting ahead. But comparing playing and practicing music to garbage trucks in heaven is very funny and creative, if not actually informative or even useful. Guitar players! We are a breed unto ourselves. LOL.
Old 29th September 2022 | Show parent
  #100
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RGJ22's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin ➡️
I hope you ment "the student cant play it correctly" in the original key. No on who has to change key to be able to play a piece should be teaching at all.
We agree. (you did read that correctly) But that is a modern trend with intermediate players who are teaching on YT.
Old 29th September 2022
  #101
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone ➡️
According to this article, most beginners abandon within a year:
https://www.guitarinsideout.com/guit...ry-statistics/

As a (adult) guitar beginner myself, and loving to learn and play electric guitar, I have tried to understand why this is so.

I don't have referenced numbers for piano/keyboard beginners (but I have read that only 20% quit piano after 1-3 yrs), still, I doubt it's as bad as for guitar. One reason for the difference might be that lots of piano beginners are youth/children. So maybe there is family, cultural (ie "prestige of piano"), institutional and peer pressure to keep at learning piano.

Also, nowadays digital pianos with good sound and 76 key full weighted keyboard can be cheaper than a CV Squier.

Lastly a piano trained player will often be fine on a synthesizer, and midi/DAW system which are in vogue with younger musicians into electronic music.

In contrast, apparently most guitar beginners are (>40) adults. So, maybe there are physical limitations (fatigue, poor dexterity..) , lack of perseverance/concentration, lack of time ?

Incidentally, I find interesting that classic guitar seems lots more "specialised" or niche in this culture, than classic piano.

It would also be interesting to know the % of young (say 20-30) vs mature adult (say 40+) in this forum.

In any case, I guess this doesn't bode well for the vitality and renewing of the guitar-based music scene.
Guitar requires hand contortions and extensive training to become adept. I wouldn't consider it an easy instrument to learn.

The mainstreaming of rap, hiphop, and electronic dance music in the 1990s was a stronger destroyer of the guitar-based music scene though.

Generations took up drum machines, MPCs, and midi keys over guitars (and piano).

It obviously didn't totally kill guitar or guitar-based music (as it still lives and in some pools even thrives), but it is simply not as predominately popular today as a result. Sub 30 year olds today generally want instant now. The guitar is not an instant now musical tool.

Perhaps that's always been the case, but in the past there were no sample playback devices for the masses (bargain basement cheap). Back just 20 or so years ago even.

You have to love the guitar or be forced (by parents) to play as there are so many other easier ways to make noise today.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #102
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➡️
Yeah. This is the problem with guitar players. It wonderful in the sense that we as a group are less beholden to the legacy of the tried and true, which can be a stop gap to creativity. It CAN BE, but doesn't have to be. Building on what's already known is generally the surest way of getting ahead. But comparing playing and practicing music to garbage trucks in heaven is very funny and creative, if not actually informative or even useful. Guitar players! We are a breed unto ourselves. LOL.
I can see how that applies to disciplined genres like classical and jazz, but in rock almost all of the greats were self-taught and knew very little theory. I doubt the Beatles, Who, Stones, Hendrix, Clapton, Beck etc would have been as innovative if they had.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #103
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RGJ22's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
I can see how that applies to disciplined genres like classical and jazz, but in rock almost all of the greats were self-taught and knew very little theory. I doubt the Beatles, Who, Stones, Hendrix, Clapton, Beck etc would have been as innovative if they had.
In regards to creativity and formal knowledge, it gets too subjective for any true analysis but I sincerely know what you mean. On the other hand just off the top of my CD list, you have guys like Carlton, Lukather, Page, Fagen, Paich, Becker, Zappa, Vai, Paul Simon, Sting, Danny Elfman, Ford, Ritenour and the plethora of session players and (mainstream) jazz fusion players (Such as Herbie Hancock) and on and on who read/write without creative challenges. And I am sure that isn’t even a sliver from the tree.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #104
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGJ22 ➡️
In regards to creativity and formal knowledge, it gets too subjective for any true analysis but I sincerely know what you mean. On the other hand just off the top of my CD list, you have guys like Carlton, Lukather, Page, Fagen, Paich, Becker, Zappa, Vai, Paul Simon, Sting, Danny Elfman, Ford, Ritenour and the plethora of session players and (mainstream) jazz fusion players (Such as Herbie Hancock) and on and on who read/write without creative challenges. And I am sure that isn’t even a sliver from the tree.
There's only a couple on that list that truly do it for me tbh and most seem more on the jazzier end of things. There are lots of trained pop/rock composers and arrangers I do love though, (Burt Bacharach, Ennio Morricone, John Barry, Henry Mancini, Guy Toussaint, George Martin...) who I'm sure could not have achieved what they did without their training. They're not really guitar-orientated though and tend to lean more towards the classical side.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGJ22 ➡️
In regards to creativity and formal knowledge, it gets too subjective for any true analysis but I sincerely know what you mean. On the other hand just off the top of my CD list, you have guys like Carlton, Lukather, Page, Fagen, Paich, Becker, Zappa, Vai, Paul Simon, Sting, Danny Elfman, Ford, Ritenour and the plethora of session players and (mainstream) jazz fusion players (Such as Herbie Hancock) and on and on who read/write without creative challenges. And I am sure that isn’t even a sliver from the tree.
any one of those names is probably a better musician than all the musicians i have met in my life combined.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #106
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RGJ22's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
There's only a couple on that list that truly do it for me tbh and most seem more on the jazzier end of things. There are lots of trained pop/rock composers and arrangers I do love though, (Burt Bacharach, Ennio Morricone, John Barry, Henry Mancini, Guy Toussaint, George Martin...) who I'm sure could not have achieved what they did without their training. They're not really guitar-orientated though and tend to lean more towards the classical side.
I completely understand. I only mentioned subjectivity because there is not much on the greats list you mention other than Beck and some Beatles that lights me up. I was speaking more to creativity than genre. But I do think it's logical that many Piano oriented songwriters read music (Billy Joel, Jonathon Cain, Carol King, Bruce Hornsby, Dennis Deyoung, Alicia Keys, Elton John etc) Freddy Mercury I don't know, but Brian may does.

No real position other than to say none of the theory can be shown to stfile creativity, greatness or originality. At least not that I can see. It does seem to allow a certain liberation. But in the end, writers are going to write regardless and It is evident that both great music and or less desirable music are equally composed in both camps.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #107
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mdme_sadie's Avatar
Oh it's obvious why, the trouble is it's too successful!

You play guitar to impress the opposite sex but because it only takes one chord and a tub of hair gel to do so 90% of beginners achieve their goal within the first year and then no-longer need to learn how to play the guitar nor have time for it what with raising their new sprogs.

It's only us 10% of unsuccessful ones who go on to learn the other chord and a miserable life of loneliness, tolex and spandex. Think about that the next time you laud SRV, EVH and Yngwie. John Williams? Cries himself to sleep in a bedsit every night, Hendrix? Literally died of blue balls...
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #108
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Twenty five years ago or so DAWs started hosting virtual instruments. Such as Cakewalk and Cubase VST. At that time standard instrument retailers started going out of business. Here in Philadelphia we lost 4 family owned but majorly established music stores. The larger franchises like Guitar Center, Sam Ash remained. Instrument companies squeezed the family shops right out of business because the instrument companies wouldn't sell to them unless they bought the minimum quantity of their merchandise per year. (or what ever the contract stated) Those shops now couldn't afford to carry the popular brand name instruments. Also, sales went down because more people were using computers with the brand new virtual instrument DAWs and buying inexpensive controller keyboards like the Midiman Oxygen 8 (or using the older, crappy MIDI keyboard they already owned as a controller.)

This greedy industry, in part, killed the guitar and synth market in the neighborhood music shops. So what do we have to show for all this , is a new generation of hack bedroom musician want-2-bees creating the same amateurish, so called ambient music, over and over and over. No one can actually play an instrument or know anything about music..(except for the exceptions of course.)
Who can blame them for not wanting to study the guitar until your fingers bleed. The idea is that they blister and heal so often the finger tips scar over and harden. Who but the most dedicated people would go through that? Not many, because now we can do it all, without the pain and effort of practicing, with a MIDI graphic sequencer and Kontakt.
Also, around that time people learned how to use Torrents, so you could even get your software for free!

In case your curious, I was already a bass/guitar player for years before my first PC. Thanks for reading.
Old 30th September 2022
  #109
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
If i could read music i would not be able to play what was on the page either on guitar or piano. I realized this years ago. I just don't have the dexterity or the brain type for it. I do not ''practice''. I treat the instruments as tools to write with although i do enjoy noodling around on them and have improved [slightly] over the years. But i am and will always be a mediocre musician.
Old 30th September 2022
  #110
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
The other side of this is if there was/is someone younger or albeit older who wants to or wanted to learn guitar, where would they even perform given the reality of venues, etc. closing.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #111
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo ➡️
I can see how that applies to disciplined genres like classical and jazz, but in rock almost all of the greats were self-taught and knew very little theory. I doubt the Beatles, Who, Stones, Hendrix, Clapton, Beck etc would have been as innovative if they had.
But the was sometimes a lot of very discrete and quiet time spent copying parts forms other people's records and with books, teachers and peers learning that stuff. Paul McCartney took "proper"piano lesson as a kid. Pete Townshend's father was a big band leader. Clapton learn by assiduously copying original blues records.

It was, however, very uncool at that time to admit any sort of resort to formal training or methods, or learning from anyone else .
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #112
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdme_sadie ➡️
Oh it's obvious why, the trouble is it's too successful!

You play guitar to impress the opposite sex but because it only takes one chord and a tub of hair gel to do so 90% of beginners achieve their goal within the first year and then no-longer need to learn how to play the guitar nor have time for it what with raising their new sprogs.

It's only us 10% of unsuccessful ones who go on to learn the other chord and a miserable life of loneliness, tolex and spandex. Think about that the next time you laud SRV, EVH and Yngwie. John Williams? Cries himself to sleep in a bedsit every night, Hendrix? Literally died of blue balls...
Wow apparently I'm doing this music thing wrong!

I've been in it, this whole time, because music impressed ME and became a beneficial way to express myself creatively... even artistically if I'm allowed that. And it's helped me communicate maybe even empathize with others.
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #113
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin ➡️
But the was sometimes a lot of very discrete and quiet time spent copying parts forms other people's records and with books, teachers and peers learning that stuff. Paul McCartney took "proper"piano lesson as a kid. Pete Townshend's father was a big band leader. Clapton learn by assiduously copying original blues records.

It was, however, very uncool at that time to admit any sort of resort to formal training or methods, or learning from anyone else .
I don't think Macca took any actual lessons as he couldn't read any notation, (hence he relied on George Martin to translate his parts for any classical players they brought in.) Townshend watched his Dad's band live, but he was a sax player and wouldn't have been able to teach him anything on guitar. Clapton (and others) certainly learnt from records and those who went before them, but again there was no formal theory and it was very much a winging-it method of learning. But I think that's partly why they were so interesting. They didn't know the rules, so they were 'experimenting' pretty much from the start as well as developing their ear and musical memory (which is often greater than that of classical musicians.)
Old 30th September 2022 | Show parent
  #114
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Beck (Hansen) when asked in an interview "How did you learn how to write music ?" answered "I just started listening to what everyone else was doing."
Old 30th September 2022
  #115
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Most students on most instruments either quit once they realize it’s hard, or they get to point where the realization sets in that to really get better, they will basically have to devote their life to music. Then they either quit, pursue as a hobby, or get serious.
Old 30th September 2022
  #116
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
@ RayHeath
None of your spamming examples of 3 part guitar playing are valid. There are just two independent moving parts at any point in time. There are always two parts with one following the other.

If anyone can do 3 independent moving parts it's Leo Kottke. And you'll need to do your own investigation in YT, I have better things to do with my time.
Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #117
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGJ22 ➡️
You only posted half my quote cut off mid sentence ...

Down tuning as a band, wiriting compositions etc has been in play for decades. Some of my favorite musicians / bands / songs tuned down 1/2 step.

Tuning down (or up) in order to teach a song...simply because the teacher cannot play it correctly is a major detriment to skill set improvement.

This is particularly prevalent in flat keys.

Song is in Bb, Eb, Ab etc the instructor tunes down or teaches it in A, or up to E, up to G etc. It is very common with bass. It undermines the ability to learn new fingering, phrasing, technique etc. And changes the way it sounds. Just as common is a song in F# which has a certain tonal vibe, then gets transposed up to G for 'ease of learning for now'. That is is rarely a positive support in the long term.

Just some observations.
HHMmmm... you may have a point, BUT-

Quite often a song will have the key changed to accommodate THE SINGER, not the "fumbling guitarist". The range/choice of keys of a vocalist is usually not as flexible as that of a guitarist, or most other members of the band, for that matter.
Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #118
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by G650 ➡️
Yes, specifically the down tune thing is what I was asking about. I've never heard of that before in that context.
Ignorance. NOT an excuse.
Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #119
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarrySteinhart ➡️
@ RayHeath
None of your spamming examples of 3 part guitar playing are valid. There are just two independent moving parts at any point in time. There are always two parts with one following the other.

If anyone can do 3 independent moving parts it's Leo Kottke. And you'll need to do your own investigation in YT, I have better things to do with my time.

Interesting perspective. . . .maybe, listen again?

I’ll agree that Leo Kottke is a true gem and a consistently effective example of polyphonic playing.

However, Brian’s original statement, I think, specifically targeted three-part Bach inventions [i.e., the Bach sinfonias]. So, my initial response targeted a few pieces from exactly that very small collection of tunes.

I’ve no acceptable excuse for gratuitously spamming the thread with all my additional posts, though.


Apologies,

Ray H.


@ Progger : A lot of guitarists are going to know Fernando Sor‘s Morceau de Concert, Op. 54. It is the first set up, here. Next up, is David’s arrangement of Partie No. 2—an amazing suite by Johann Kuhnau. It starts 14:47 in.
Old 1st October 2022 | Show parent
  #120
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RGJ22's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
HHMmmm... you may have a point, BUT-

Quite often a song will have the key changed to accommodate THE SINGER, not the "fumbling guitarist". The range/choice of keys of a vocalist is usually not as flexible as that of a guitarist, or most other members of the band, for that matter.
Sure, of course. I agree. That is a different conversation and as legit of a practice as anything else. Singers need the right key, but the musicians worth his/her salt will still attempt to transpose the right voicing's to keep the tonal spirit/character.

The only difference might be with a capo, it sometimes necessitates a change in grips or voicings and that's just a reality of live performance. Sometimes it works OK, sometimes it works great. Good singer can make up for a whole lot of 'OK' musicianship in as far as the audience is concerned.
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