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When did seling at full list price become common?
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
When did seling at full list price become common?

I have been away from new instrument market for a bunch of years. My last new guitar purchase was maybe in 2011. Before that I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. Is this a new thing since the pandemic, or has it been like this longer than that?
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuneau ➡️
I have been away from new instrument market for a bunch of years. My last new guitar purchase was maybe in 2011. Before that I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. Is this a new thing since the pandemic, or has it been like this longer than that?
Fender CEO was recently interviewed and seemed pretty happy to have raised prices since the pandemic. Demand is high. Some manufacturers, I believe Big F was one, were sued a few years ago for engaging in price fixing.

I’m hoping there’ll be a big gear sell-off in the coming years. Millions of new players and, historically, only 10% stick with it. There will be a flood of lightly used gear.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuneau ➡️
I have been away from new instrument market for a bunch of years. My last new guitar purchase was maybe in 2011. Before that I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. Is this a new thing since the pandemic, or has it been like this longer than that?
Typical. Gibson did it, now their guitars look good in the shop windows and they sell very few instruments. However Ephis sell well because they are affordable and are often discounted even further. Superb guitars from Japan (Yamaha, Ibanez, ESP...), China (Eastman) and Korea are very affordable, offer excellent quality and often are discounted.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
GS Community Manager
 
Whitecat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuneau ➡️
I have been away from new instrument market for a bunch of years. My last new guitar purchase was maybe in 2011. Before that I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. Is this a new thing since the pandemic, or has it been like this longer than that?
Mostly pandemic related from what I'm seeing. Supply chain issues and Covid-related staffing issues have led to product shortages, both in manufacturing and distribution. If shops can't get product very easily they are not going to discount what they have very readily. The second-hand market is vastly inflated too as a result of this, it's definitely a seller's market for the time being.

That said, there are still bargains to be had if you shop carefully and are willing to look at older inventory, what little there is!

I'm not sure there is going to be a "big selloff". The world has changed now. Lots of people buying guitars, even if they don't stick with the lessons, are the type who will consider them nice wall decorations behind them for their continued WFH Zoom meetings. Lots of the middle-class types who no longer have to pay for a full-time commute or any of the other expenses involved in joining a rat race to the office simply don't have to sell if they don't really need the space. In addition, the insane price rises we're seeing are going to contribute to secondhand prices being higher than a lot of people would like. Time will tell of course!
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Wholesale prices have increased here 10%. Consumer prices are up 7%. Some items are way up like beef and fuel. Add shortages and it's a seller's market.
Old 6 days ago
  #6
Gear Guru
 
kennybro's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
For all of you guys who have been collecting/buying/selling for many years, and watching prices remain fairly stale over the past decade and half, this could be a very good time to bust out some of the herd and put it on the market. I have a few things I've been hanging on to for 10 or 15 years, and I'll probably get a booth at a show or two in the spring. Not a good time to buy, that's for sure. But there are always people out there in the market for stuff, regardless of inflated prices.
Old 6 days ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Dave_Ionic's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Its not just now . It used to be you could go into a music store and usually develops a working relationship with the people at that store and see up to 30% back usually. Then MAP pricing came about and a lot of things no longer could be discounted that deeply . Now with the pandemic it’s added to that ass the supply chain is messed up so you see a lot of places getting full retail. I still get deals through my people but the discounts are usually not as deep, they work with me though as they know I am good for a fair amount of sales for them.
Old 4 days ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Is there even one consumer product that is NOT following the inflationary path described by the OP?
And before anyone blames his own government for the situation, (wherever you live) please do a little check and you'll see that it is worldwide.
Old 4 days ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuneau ➡️
I have been away from new instrument market for a bunch of years. My last new guitar purchase was maybe in 2011. Before that I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. Is this a new thing since the pandemic, or has it been like this longer than that?
Yeah I always used to drive a hard bargain - I remember walking into Rose Morris in Tin Pan Alley in 1990 5 mins before they wanted to close on a Friday evening (already picked the guitar a week earlier!) paid £450 for a bass with a £900 label price - they just wanted to get rid of me and close the shop!
Old 4 days ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Arichlsss's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I just got 10% off list and free shipping on a new 33609N
Old 4 days ago
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thuneau ➡️
[. . .] I had a job at a music store in the 90's.
Back then 20% off list was normal going price for a guitar, and some customers would get a better deal than that depending on what it was. Now, everything is sold at list with the only perk being free shipping. [. . .]
I thought you could still get 15-20% discount on most gear with a bit of negotiation and maybe timing?

Back in the mid '80s I owned a full line music store [Beachwood Music, Clearwater, FL]. We sold every new instrument at a 35% discount or better - every day, and without exception - and we discounted all strings 50% every day. Accessories were similarly deeply discounted. We were the largest Guild dealer in the US and the largest Dean Markley dealer in the south-east US.

But such discounts were not at all uncommon in the competitive environment. There were several music stores in the local market then, including Thoroughbred and Paragon Music. . .both highly aggressive competitors.


Price fixing [as we see today] was definitely not a 'thing'.

Ray H.
Old 4 days ago
  #12
We had "fair trade" price fixing here in California back in the 1960's. A new Fender Strat was list price, $299. No discounts.

Now those same guitars now sell for up to $22k.
Old 2 days ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
60s-70s...I'd buy at cost. Which is one reason I had quite a few Norlin Gibsons at the time.

I only bought a few new guitars during the 80s (but practically every synth made) and paid around 40% off. Once via out east for two Gretsches in one phone call and a Ric face to face at a now-defunct music store chain down in OC.

From the 90s up to a couple of years ago, I'd buy via phone or online out of convenience and get whatever discount, price-match, free shipping whatever. Not paying attention too much if it was something I really wanted. It's still my preferred method since I don't really microscope guitars as others do.

In the past two years, I've walked into stores twice (which I haven't really been doing for a long time) and purchased two different in-stock high end guitars and paid just a little over cost on each. It helps to know the cost structure among other things.

Regardless of demand or the economic/supply chain/pandemic etc factors, deals are to be found face-to-face in my experience.

Which I believe someone else in the thread also mentioned.
Old 2 days ago
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
When I worked music retail (spots in and around 2002-2011), they told me that instruments aren't where to negotiate discounts: they're in the accessories. There's some wiggle room in instruments but, really, you can call it the salesperson's commission. For this reason, I never drive a hard bargain on new retail gear.

That said, I recently tried to buy a used Firefly (Amazon guitar, basically) that was listed 14% *above* its new retail cost. I offered them the 'flat' price but never heard back. Reverb is full of this insanity - markups on Bgr gear.

Hey, one time I bought a bag of maple leaves so who am I to judge?
Old 2 days ago
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I think....

MAP changed the way prices were doled out, and at the same time more "pro-sumer" buyers emerged. Throw in market dominance of GC the sales process has changed. I haven't worked in a store in a long time, but I would expect haggling has basically disappeared.

Which has led to the phenomenon where prices on Reverb, and particularly Craigslist, are... disorienting. Effectively people expect to get the same price for their used gear that they paid for it, and I know why: the "gentrification" of the prosumer means they have this attitude:

"it's not really in any worse condition than when I bought it, so that's what it's worth".

Which is nonsensical, but I've heard this from ProSumer people. And occasionally I've seen them sell to other ProSumer people that are music store averse (which is another topic).

Which has led to 2 strange phenomenons:

1) as time goes by, more music gear in general is created on the planet - but it obviously outpaces the number of active musicians on the planet;

2) the person looking for a Used Something or Other looks at used prices, thinks "that's almost as much as a new Something or Other!" and buys new; which then leads the retailer to not want to discount, and possibly the manufacturer think "we need to raise prices".

I have MAP to thank for not buying as much gear in the past years. It's raised prices, and made stores "stiff" about wanting to discount because of the price fixing aspect. I don't feel like *trying* to haggle anymore, which I suppose was the point, and unless you're in a big city there Standard Fare at GC isn't really what I want, so.... gear limbo.
Old 2 days ago
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
One more thing:

There is full list price;

there is "Craigslist almost full list price";

then there is the sad display of "Facebook Marketplace" that I can't look at. Not only people wanting list price, but expecting to sell things that reflects on the state of the U.S. economy and mental capacity: broken guitar cables, "5 picks slightly used", "Peavey Backstage amp (needs repair) $100", Chinese pedals for what they go for on Amazon, grimy $100 beginner guitars for $100, "guitar knob $1"....

I had to stop going to the local flea markets because it went from trying to find something amidst junk, to having people obviously literally selling the clothes off their backs - worn out sneakers, WIC food, etc. and literal beggars. Too depressing and sad.

/ I hate the 21st century
Old 1 day ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 
AfterViewer's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Over the last few years I have been buying up over a half dozen guitars, assorted other instruments, amps and recording gear to have for the long term. Just snagged 2 more guitars before the shop where I buy let me know that all their distributers have upped the prices on everything except some of the accessories. The owner said this will be the new norm... none of the pricing will end up returning to the way things were. Sold a good bit of stock (NYSE) to accommodate the purchases, .... whew! Time to bunker down and get back into recording now after just playing and composing during that time span.

Last edited by AfterViewer; 1 day ago at 11:46 PM..
Old 1 day ago
  #18
Gear Addict
 
camacozie's Avatar
 
I saw a used Jeep Wrangler for sale for $100k - factory stock - the other day. Who is going to pay $100k for a used Jeep Wrangler?!?!

It's now sold...

Seems the MSRP prices are being outpaced by consumer demand + scarcity (artificially, that's my fear). My prediction is that MSRP goes up, but prices NEVER come back down; that is until everyone starts dropping dead from all these shots.
Old 1 day ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 
noah330's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I remember a few stores that sole MSRP in the late 80s/early 90s.

Today they make up a MAP and sell for less so it’s pretty much the same thing. Especially when GC, Scamwater, AMS, etc… all have exactly the same price.

I remember Carvin used to have MSRP in their factory direct catalogs. Maybe in their retail stores prices were higher than the catalog?
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by camacozie ➡️
I saw a used Jeep Wrangler for sale for $100k - factory stock - the other day. Who is going to pay $100k for a used Jeep Wrangler?!?!

It's now sold...
I priced a new one (never in stock) and it ran $60k. I paid $27k for my JKU Sahara, I paid $300 over dealer cost.

I could sell it for profit on a 15 year old Jeep.

I'm keeping the 2007, it has 95k miles on it. A new engine and tranny is a far better deal than any new replacement. Besides, I have it all tricked out with 35" mud tires, lift, G2 gears, Banks air intake, sway bar disconnects and a host of other aftermarket goodies.

The Kenwood stereo sounds fantastic with Polk woofers and AMT tweeters.
Old 2 hours ago | Show parent
  #21
Gear Guru
 
John Eppstein's Avatar
 
58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams ➡️
We had "fair trade" price fixing here in California back in the 1960's. A new Fender Strat was list price, $299. No discounts.

Now those same guitars now sell for up to $22k.
Maybe in LA/SoCal. Not in the Bay Area.
Old 1 hour ago | Show parent
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah330 ➡️
I remember a few stores that sole MSRP in the late 80s/early 90s.

Today they make up a MAP and sell for less so it’s pretty much the same thing. Especially when GC, Scamwater, AMS, etc… all have exactly the same price.

I remember Carvin used to have MSRP in their factory direct catalogs. Maybe in their retail stores prices were higher than the catalog?
Scamwater!! I actually got that, what you meant....
Old 13 minutes ago | Show parent
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein ➡️
Maybe in LA/SoCal. Not in the Bay Area.
Fair Trade was a California state law back then. If it was ignored, it was done illegally. Not the first time a California law was ignored here.
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