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Are walls of amps or any backline amps onstage becoming obsolete and a thing of the past?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #271
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice and Sax ➡️
I went to find the original study I read years ago, to post, and found a half dozen more like it. So rather than bore you with those links, which you'll probably just dismiss, I'll suggest readers search "Hearing Loss; speakers vs. headphones vs. earbuds."
Here's the gist; hearing damage is up 30% due to headphones and earbuds. And the worst culprit is earbuds.
A far better solution for me was custom-molded earplugs. I had both attenuators - I think they were 10db and 15db. They worked great! I could sing and play flutes saxes and percussion with them - in tune - and still feel a part of the band.
You can believe whatever you like with regard to hearing loss. I follow the science, not the science fiction.
A better search would be “headphones v drummers”. I have hearing loss which is directly attributable to playing in bands for decades. If earplugs work for you then great. I now use custom mould IEMs. They block out almost everything, so I can have the monitoring at a beautiful comfortable volume, with an eq that corrects for my hearing loss. I can hear - and therefore play - detail that gets lost without them, not even a faint ringing in my ears after a gig. It’s heaven. The notion that this is somehow worse for my ears than a wedge is, frankly, poppycock
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis ➡️
A better search would be “headphones v drummers”. I have hearing loss which is directly attributable to playing in bands for decades. If earplugs work for you then great. I now use custom mould IEMs. They block out almost everything, so I can have the monitoring at a beautiful comfortable volume, with an eq that corrects for my hearing loss. I can hear - and therefore play - detail that gets lost without them, not even a faint ringing in my ears after a gig. It’s heaven. The notion that this is somehow worse for my ears than a wedge is, frankly, poppycock
Do you know exactly how loud you are listening or are you just guessing at what "a beautiful comfortable volume" is?

With wedges and amps one can easily pull out a db meter and answer the question.

Does your IEM system tell you in actual decibels SPL what you are being exposed to?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #273
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLast ➡️
Do you know exactly how loud you are listening or are you just guessing at what "a beautiful comfortable volume" is?

With wedges and amps one can easily pull out a db meter and answer the question.

Does your IEM system tell you in actual decibels SPL what you are being exposed to?
Anyone with enough experience is capable of judging relative volume without a decibel meter. Or, failing that, by the level of ringing in the ears at the end of a gig. I used to get it before I switched to IEMs, on the recommendation of my audiologist, now I do not, so I suspect he knew a thing or two about the matter. Besides, you’re missing the point- wedges need to be loud enough to hear over a drummer, IEMs do not. The science of home hi-fi is not relevant here.
You carry on doing what you like, but I will take the opinion of a consultant audiologist (roughly equivalent to a US Hospital Attending) over some bloke on the internet who read a study once upon a time.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #274
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis ➡️
Anyone with enough experience is capable of judging relative volume without a decibel meter. Or, failing that, by the level of ringing in the ears at the end of a gig. I used to get it before I switched to IEMs, on the recommendation of my audiologist, now I do not, so I suspect he knew a thing or two about the matter. Besides, you’re missing the point- wedges need to be loud enough to hear over a drummer, IEMs do not. The science of home hi-fi is not relevant here.
You carry on doing what you like, but I will take the opinion of a consultant audiologist (roughly equivalent to a US Hospital Attending) over some bloke on the internet who read a study once upon a time.
Actually I do owe JLast an apology here - I thought he was the other geezer who was banging on about some study he'd read. My tone should have been more balanced, as indeed have Jlast's comments been in this thread
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grannis ➡️
Actually I do owe JLast an apology here - I thought he was the other geezer who was banging on about some study he'd read. My tone should have been more balanced, as indeed have Jlast's comments been in this thread
Thanks.

My point was simply that with either IEM's or wedges one needs to be careful with levels.

Glad you are aware but with IEM and headphones it is very easy for many people to not keep track of just how loud stuff is.

As Sherman (Barry) Keene said in his book, Practical Techniques for the Recording Engineer, "protect the gift". The "gift" is your hearing. If one thinks of it as a gift and that you only get two ears I think it's easier to keep it's importance in mind.
Old 5 days ago
  #276
iFi audio
 
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It's interesting seeing some places won't even accommodate a single guitar amp/rig. A friend of mine is looking to gig more in the format of an EDM DJ and he's a guitar player at heart. The guy got a Mesa amp head and custom cab, but is now trying to sell as he mentioned that all the Sound Guys at club and DJ venues aren't going to mic or even DI a Cab rig, so he's looking into amp sims and virtual alternatives. Anyone have a "club rig"? Similar experiences?
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #277
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Mikhael's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi audio ➡️
It's interesting seeing some places won't even accommodate a single guitar amp/rig. A friend of mine is looking to gig more in the format of an EDM DJ and he's a guitar player at heart. The guy got a Mesa amp head and custom cab, but is now trying to sell as he mentioned that all the Sound Guys at club and DJ venues aren't going to mic or even DI a Cab rig, so he's looking into amp sims and virtual alternatives. Anyone have a "club rig"? Similar experiences?
Around here, most "sound-people" don't have a clue what to do with a DI rig. At least, not in the clubs. Oh, and "here" is Austin, TX. Now, in the places, that touring acts go through, like Cheap Trick and such, I wouldn't think that would be an issue. But in the smaller clubs, they don't know what to do with DI. But they'll holler at you when you turn your amp on, if you use a cabinet.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #278
iFi audio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael ➡️
Around here, most "sound-people" don't have a clue what to do with a DI rig. At least, not in the clubs. Oh, and "here" is Austin, TX. Now, in the places, that touring acts go through, like Cheap Trick and such, I wouldn't think that would be an issue. But in the smaller clubs, they don't know what to do with DI. But they'll holler at you when you turn your amp on, if you use a cabinet.
Ah, noted. Austin, TX is a great city! Especially for music right now. Seems like that's what (most) people are moving there to do. I hear that side too though. Perhaps it's just the types of venues you're playing at whether they can accommodate DI or will just mic your amp.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #279
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Mikhael's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi audio ➡️
Ah, noted. Austin, TX is a great city! Especially for music right now. Seems like that's what (most) people are moving there to do. I hear that side too though. Perhaps it's just the types of venues you're playing at whether they can accommodate DI or will just mic your amp.
Austin is not what it once was. Between restrictive noise ordinances (no dB level, just whether your neighbor complains or not), lack of pay (I made more in the hills of West Virginia 40 years ago than one can make here today), and booking issues, Austin is certainly not what I would call the "live music capitol". The reality is different than the image, for sure.

90% of the time, we provide the PA. The other 10%, the monitor situation is never very good, sometimes downright horrible (even though the equipment might be very good), and the FOH really has little experience with DI situations.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #280
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
Totally anecdotal but I'm 74 and played out averaging 5 nights a week for ~2 decades and though at my age I do have some upper midrange loss, it's not bad (I can still hear 16K @ 80db) and it was more than merely worth it even if volume was the cause and not just aging.
I've worn earplugs since the 1970's. It paid off. My audiologist says I test better than most 18 year olds. I also play 100 watts on "11", but with -32 db foam plugs.

You can get used to anything, including deafness.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi audio ➡️
It's interesting seeing some places won't even accommodate a single guitar amp/rig. A friend of mine is looking to gig more in the format of an EDM DJ and he's a guitar player at heart. The guy got a Mesa amp head and custom cab, but is now trying to sell as he mentioned that all the Sound Guys at club and DJ venues aren't going to mic or even DI a Cab rig, so he's looking into amp sims and virtual alternatives. Anyone have a "club rig"? Similar experiences?
That is shameful. Tell that man to get a Pignose and an SM-57. Some of the best sounds I ever heard from a guitar were made that way, and it will keep your stage levels reasonable and keep leakage down.

Amps on stage are fine, but anything bigger than a Champ is really asking for trouble. The days of people bringing Marshall stacks into tiny clubs are gone, thank God.
--scott
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #282
iFi audio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikhael ➡️
Austin is not what it once was. Between restrictive noise ordinances (no dB level, just whether your neighbor complains or not), lack of pay (I made more in the hills of West Virginia 40 years ago than one can make here today), and booking issues, Austin is certainly not what I would call the "live music capitol". The reality is different than the image, for sure.

90% of the time, we provide the PA. The other 10%, the monitor situation is never very good, sometimes downright horrible (even though the equipment might be very good), and the FOH really has little experience with DI situations.
Dang. Sorry to hear it hasn't been an ideal experience for you. Does it feel like a young music city undergoing growing pains at the surface level?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #283
iFi audio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
That is shameful. Tell that man to get a Pignose and an SM-57. Some of the best sounds I ever heard from a guitar were made that way, and it will keep your stage levels reasonable and keep leakage down.

Amps on stage are fine, but anything bigger than a Champ is really asking for trouble. The days of people bringing Marshall stacks into tiny clubs are gone, thank God.
--scott
Fair point re: leakage levels. His cab was fairly sizable and I can't remember the real size, but it wasn't anything tiny. Good advice though!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #284
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by iFi audio ➡️
Dang. Sorry to hear it hasn't been an ideal experience for you. Does it feel like a young music city undergoing growing pains at the surface level?
No. It feels like a growing city shedding its past, and becoming like any other US city.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #285
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
That is shameful. Tell that man to get a Pignose and an SM-57. Some of the best sounds I ever heard from a guitar were made that way, and it will keep your stage levels reasonable and keep leakage down.

Amps on stage are fine, but anything bigger than a Champ is really asking for trouble. The days of people bringing Marshall stacks into tiny clubs are gone, thank God.
--scott
I respect your opinion but it is only that - opinion. A stock Champ, with ~5watts output through an 8 inch speaker simply lacks the headroom for live playing especially clean.

This is especially true if one considers the importance of an exciting soundstage onstage. A band should be inspired by it's own sound or it is unlikely to inspire anyone else. Add to that that a 20 watt amp is not 4 times as loud as a 5 watt amp, and is lucky to be even 30% louder, the wattage is not the huge issue you imagine. There is value in moving air and an 8 inch speaker produces logarithmically less mass of air moving than a single 12. Try plugging a Champ into a 4x12 sometime. It will only be slightly louder but it will be vastly bigger sounding.

I have witnessed 50 watt Marshall half stacks in small clubs that sounded great as well as other similar rigs that sounded awful with different rooms and different players. It's not just about wattage and speaker compliment. That is extreme over-simplification that ignores both Physics and human translation.

Choose whatever works for you but it's ignorant and rude to assert everyone should choose the same as you.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #286
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58 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald ➡️
...but you know, for many of the bands using fake stacks *they still probably had one Marshall on stage that was "quite loud"".
Usually two, with one on standby.
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
I respect your opinion but it is only that - opinion. A stock Champ, with ~5watts output through an 8 inch speaker simply lacks the headroom for live playing especially clean.
It doesn't need headroom because it doesn't need to be loud enough for you to hear. If it's miked and it's in the PA and you're listening to the monitors and not to the amp, you have all the level the monitors will give you while the amp is very quiet.
--scott
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #288
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
It doesn't need headroom because it doesn't need to be loud enough for you to hear. If it's miked and it's in the PA and you're listening to the monitors and not to the amp, you have all the level the monitors will give you while the amp is very quiet.
--scott
Well duh! The point is that is one way to get a usable band sound but it is not the only or even the best way for everyone though it may well be best for you.
Old 1 day ago | Show parent
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
Well duh! The point is that is one way to get a usable band sound but it is not the only or even the best way for everyone though it may well be best for you.
Absolutely. I am just saying this is pretty much the expectation these days. Go to a festival or a club and nobody is expecting a loud backline anymore. If you bring a Marshall pointed at your feet as was common a couple decades back you can expect the crew to complain about it.
--scott
Old 15 hours ago | Show parent
  #290
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio ➡️
Absolutely. I am just saying this is pretty much the expectation these days. Go to a festival or a club and nobody is expecting a loud backline anymore. If you bring a Marshall pointed at your feet as was common a couple decades back you can expect the crew to complain about it.
--scott
I know that has become rather commonplace in mid sized venues but I don't think it is ideal at all. I don't want to hear or play in a band that is filtered by "the crew". I'm all for a good working relationship but that does not imply the band works for the crew. It's ideally the other way around.

A band does well to actively listen to recommendations from the crew and take them seriously but the band should have final say and ultimate control over what gear they use and how they sound, for good or for ill. Complaining about a band's gear choice just looks unprofessional and possibly inept.
Old 12 hours ago | Show parent
  #291
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 ➡️
I know that has become rather commonplace in mid sized venues but I don't think it is ideal at all. I don't want to hear or play in a band that is filtered by "the crew". I'm all for a good working relationship but that does not imply the band works for the crew. It's ideally the other way around.

A band does well to actively listen to recommendations from the crew and take them seriously but the band should have final say and ultimate control over what gear they use and how they sound, for good or for ill. Complaining about a band's gear choice just looks unprofessional and possibly inept.
Yeah, this is it. Every band has a different way of feeling comfortable on stage, and the crew should accommodate.

Many bands that use small amps go for 22 watts or the like, so they can hear them onstage and get a natural blend between band members. True that many use IEM, and that eliminates the entire band blend possibly because your blend is created by the monitor mixer. But I hate the things, and I know many others who also hate them.

When we have wedges, we usually only want vocals in the wedges with just the slightest touch of amps, keys and drums in the wedges, and let the band balance themselves on stage mostly with the actual sound of the small amps. This is the ideal for us, but it can't always be, depending on the size of the stage, separation distance of the players and the situation the drums, and with on-stage keys amplification.

I did a Saturday night gig for about a year where the drums were behind one of those plexiglass walls. Yikes, someone just shoot me.
Old 5 hours ago
  #292
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🎧 5 years
I think these comparisons of earbuds/headphones vs. speakers causing hearing damage are true for people, who listen to music at home stereos. And in this regard they are very convincing. But the volumes you perceive if you're playing bass or guitar on a stage or in a rehearsal space next to a drummer using a large speaker cabinet and hundreds of watts are way different. I can not remember when I last had my stereo turned up to reach volumes that are even slightly comparable to the volume on stages or at our rehearsal space.
And at home or in public, people use headphones or earbuds, 'cause they can't turn up the volume on speakers as they would like.
The reasons for using IEMs as a musician are way different.
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