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Real Cabinet vs. Cab Impulse Response - Can you hear the difference?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #541
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raaphorst ➡️
why is a hifi speaker lineair and a guitar speaker all of a sudden non-lineair? it's because a tube amp often is used on a guitar speaker. reactive loads are using transistors to get that even sound.

the AMP makes it non-lineair.
Is it because the speaker is designed specifically not to address non-linearity? This would make it much cheaper (a plus for poor musos) and will give you those classic, non-sterile tones.
The amp power section would also be designed to interwork with speaker which has a very high (linear) headroom to be more predictable? Within a range of operation of course.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #542
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raaphorst ➡️
Yes Neutral DSP Quad Cortex and Kemper does this. Both are using Black Box modelling for full signal chain incl. speaker amp.
If you believe the blurb. I dont hear that in practice
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Is it because the speaker is designed specifically not to address non-linearity? This would make it much cheaper (a plus for poor musos) and will give you those classic, non-sterile tones.
The amp power section would also be designed to interwork with speaker which has a very high (linear) headroom to be more predictable? Within a range of operation of course.
The thing is that the amp is set at a certain level, creating a certain sound. You become aware it's non-lineair when turning the volume knob. But when playing you don't do that. So you can capture this sound using Impulse Response techniques.

This is how reactive load work. You can create the sound of a loud tube amp but on a smaller level. But your ears are fooling you since they are non-lineair. You can measure it though.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #544
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raaphorst ➡️
The thing is that the amp is set at a certain level, creating a certain sound. You become aware it's non-lineair when turning the volume knob. But when playing you don't do that. So you can capture this sound using Impulse Response techniques.

This is how reactive load work. You can create the sound of a loud tube amp but on a smaller level. But your ears are fooling you since they are non-lineair. You can measure it though.
Not just volume, but dynamics. Some amps and speakers have different response rate and it is non-linear. Reactive load only go that far it does not replicate the action same way
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #545
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Not just volume, but dynamics. Some amps and speakers have different response rate and it is non-linear. Reactive load only go that far it does not replicate the action same way
Any of those non-linearities the black box method will capture. With IR it is the sound at a certain level, which is fine, because no one will change the output volume while playing. But that asks for the use of transistor amp while capturing the IR.

Some people might even love speaker breakup. I don't. But that can be caputered also using IR. But as a color in a non-lineair way.

I must say that I love non-lineair filters like the Palmer Speaker Simulator and things like that. Because it contains zero compression (great for super dynamic playing). I sometimes blend that with an IR. Super direct, less peak resonances (no cab because of the filter). But well, that's matter of taste, like everything in sound is...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Not just volume, but dynamics. Some amps and speakers have different response rate and it is non-linear. Reactive load only go that far it does not replicate the action same way
Volume will fool our ears because we can't listen with non-lineair ears. In general everything loud will sound compressed because our ears compress sound when percieved as loud.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #547
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4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
The world will keep moving on with or without you

For those who have lived long enough to witness (and participate) in the various "disruptive new tech vs the old ways" debates, this thread will probably feel like deja vu. Film vs digital cameras. Tape vs digital. ITB vs analog, hardware vs software. And on and on.

But here's the reality of it all. The world will keep moving on with newer and more advanced tech, without or without your consent or approval. And those alive at the time will try the newer tech and pit it against the older methods. Some will prefer the old, and some will prefer the new, while some will be fine with either. And then the next generation who didn't grow up with the older ways will largely just default to the newer tech, and only a small minority will go digging into the past and champion the old ways, and lament "everything was better in the old days." But the world will continue to move on.

New art and entertainment will be created using new tech, and just like the old days, some will be amazing and instant classics, and some will be forgettable crap, and some will be somewhere in-between. But largely the old ways will be obsolete or extremely niche. Yet masterpieces will still be created by the newer generations.

In the context of IRs, we're already at the point where some of the new generation of the best guitar players on the planet are using the new tech, including IRs, on their album recordings and in their live performances, and they swear by them. These guitarists are also well-versed in the old ways of miking amps/cabs--in fact they're old enough to have been doing that all their lives, until technology has progressed to the point where they feel like they can use it to the same level of satisfaction as the old ways, so they abandoned the old ways and prefer the convenience and reliability of the new way of doing things.

No one is more picky about tone and feel than these extremely accomplished guitarists. So, if these top tier guitar players are embracing the new tech, including IRs, then I think that speaks more loudly anything else.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #548
_gl
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raaphorst ➡️
why is a hifi speaker lineair and a guitar speaker all of a sudden non-lineair? it's because a tube amp often is used on a guitar speaker. reactive loads are using transistors to get that even sound.

the AMP makes it non-lineair.
no, speakers themselves are also non-linear. I think the word is confusing a lot of people. Let's say 'distortion' (even though there's more to it than that). For example, the Jensen guy says in his interview that different paper thickness causes more or less distortion (ie. harmonics). Think subtle saturation, rather than full-on distortion.
This is just one example.

Think about it - a cheap speaker will sound ****ty. not just coloured, but probably a bit distorted, a bit farty/flabby etc. This is its non-linearity. A hi-fi speaker is tweaked for better linearity (it will never be perfect), which is more expensive. As was said earlier in the thread (and sounds right to me), the original guitar amps used cheap speakers. Because they were cheap, they were coloured and not very clean (ie. linear). So guitar speakers are now specifically designed to created colour, harmonics and subtle compression. None of this apart from colour (ie. EQ/phase) can be captured in a static IR.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #549
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
For those who have lived long enough to witness (and participate) in the various "disruptive new tech vs the old ways" debates, this thread will probably feel like deja vu. Film vs digital cameras. Tape vs digital. ITB vs analog, hardware vs software. And on and on.

But here's the reality of it all. The world will keep moving on with newer and more advanced tech, without or without your consent or approval. And those alive at the time will try the newer tech and pit it against the older methods. Some will prefer the old, and some will prefer the new, while some will be fine with either. And then the next generation who didn't grow up with the older ways will largely just default to the newer tech, and only a small minority will go digging into the past and champion the old ways, and lament "everything was better in the old days." But the world will continue to move on.

New art and entertainment will be created using new tech, and just like the old days, some will be amazing and instant classics, and some will be forgettable crap, and some will be somewhere in-between. But largely the old ways will be obsolete or extremely niche. Yet masterpieces will still be created by the newer generations.

In the context of IRs, we're already at the point where some of the new generation of the best guitar players on the planet are using the new tech, including IRs, on their album recordings and in their live performances, and they swear by them. These guitarists are also well-versed in the old ways of miking amps/cabs--in fact they're old enough to have been doing that all their lives, until technology has progressed to the point where they feel like they can use it to the same level of satisfaction as the old ways, so they abandoned the old ways and prefer the convenience and reliability of the new way of doing things.

No one is more picky about tone and feel than these extremely accomplished guitarists. So, if these top tier guitar players are embracing the new tech, including IRs, then I think that speaks more loudly anything else.
Well, you cannot claim they are endorsing any device for its value. Its more how much they get paid for it. Established players dont sell much as guitarists, more as a musician performing on a song. If they can get away with it (and get support from people pushing that music (who also get kickbacks)) they will use whatever. And you will believe its good and run to buy it.
Unfortunately the "new tech" (rehashed old tech - we heard the claims and praise in the 90s with the POD story) is not being used to create some thing new and exciting. Rather its there to , for convenience, rehash the same old tones you are so nonchalant about. With attitude, "i can get away with that, so its good enough". Nothing is new and overly creative there. Using a new toy you got brainwashed into buying, does not make this new and creative.
Unfortunately the public doesn't get a c**p any more. They hear same cover/plagiarism... and because its an MP3 , cant tell the difference. Besides, they are too busy playing games or protesting in the street (for whichever reason, which escapes them). However in the 60s there was music, inspiring and driving the change. Today its private new channels spreading hate.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #550
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
In the context of IRs, we're already at the point where some of the new generation of the best guitar players on the planet are using the new tech, including IRs, on their album recordings and in their live performances, and they swear by them. These guitarists are also well-versed in the old ways of miking amps/cabs--in fact they're old enough to have been doing that all their lives, until technology has progressed to the point where they feel like they can use it to the same level of satisfaction as the old ways, so they abandoned the old ways and prefer the convenience and reliability of the new way of doing things.

No one is more picky about tone and feel than these extremely accomplished guitarists. So, if these top tier guitar players are embracing the new tech, including IRs, then I think that speaks more loudly anything else.
Totally spot on.

Fwiw, no, I'm not among the best guitar players at all, but I'm doing this thing for a living for around 30 years by now (and around 10 years before already), so I'm absolutely familiar with the old fashioned way of creating guitar sounds. I've also been chasing my tone during most of this time, spending a more than considerable amount of money and time to get it all together. I had some really great setups years ago already, but there's always been something leaving me unsatisfied, be it flexibility, impracticability, unreliability or something not being suitable for a given context (it's not the easiest thing on earth to tell an MD in a small theatre that you need to fit your wet/dry/wet system into the orchestra pit - in fact, it's impossible), etc.
Since around 4 years when I went fullstop modeling (just enhanced by some analog things here and there), my quest is over.
Sure, I will keep checking (and likely buying) new things, but it won't be for any of the reasons mentioned anymore. And in case someone told me that my current setup would be the last I'd ever be allowed to use, I'd likely be perfectly fine, too.

Gotta say something pretty important (for me at least), though: For me, it has been the greatest thing to *never* hunt for any kind of "authentic" tones. Yeah, at first, that was because of financial issues. When I started out or while studying, I simply couldn't afford any kind of authentic setup, especially as it'd have to be at least two setups (or one pretty complexed) anyway to suit a broad amount of styles.
But then, later on, I just kept doing what I learned during these times, which mainly was that I need tones that would work for me. Tones, that I'd like to play with and that would suit whatever given musical context. Tones that would also please my musical co-workers and the audience. But I never went for any "authentic" tones as a requirement. Sometimes they turned out to be somewhat authentical, sometimes they wouldn't. But the plain aspect of authenticity has never been of any interest on its own.
Amazingly enough, nobody ever complained (in fact, more to the opposite), none of my bandmates, no MDs, noone in the audience. Nobody was ever going like "dude, your tone could be a little more Hendrix-ish" or anything like that.

And fwiw, this is precisely what the industry is trying to sell us. All it takes to realize that is having a look at analog guitar and amp technology, It's basically overhyped and hardly much improved tech from the last century. And as such, it's very expensive. Adding the "authentic" moniker to it will allow the industry to raise the prices even more.
In a pretty twisted way, this is true for the digital world as well. All it takes is to look at the preset names of whatever modeler. I'm sure you'll find gems such as "Jimi's Dream" or "Rotta Losie" on almost any of them. But as they never seem to be sucessful with fulfilling these promises, you're also inclined to purchase the next new kid on the block, offering "120% more real amp modeling!".

In a nutshell, a lot of all this is plain marketing strategies. You will never hear any equipment makers telling you to get the most out of what you already have. And especially the bedroom (and likely some cover band) players will follow suit, apparently thinking that they'll never play anything decent in case they don't get the sound of their idols right in the first place.
Add to all this that guitar players very often are the most conservative branch of musicians around, possibly even more conservative than drummers (and btw, in case of drummers, I can perfectly understand that they don't like digital drumsets much, they often just don't feel right).

Fortunately, as you've said, it seems as if times are changing a bit, as technology has managed to pass some cornerstones in terms of digital guitar sound. While some things might still not be authentic here and there, these days it's absolutely possible to get a dynamic sound with decent harmonic "resolution" (in lack of a better word), which at the same time feels well under your fingers, is a pleasure to listen to and sits well in a mix - hence covering anything to qualify for a nice guitar tone.
And it absolutely doesn't matter whether (or not) there's a difference between an IR or miced up real speaker.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #551
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well, you cannot claim they are endorsing any device for its value. Its more how much they get paid for it.
Nonsense. There's plenty of folks using new technology because they want to use new technology, not because they're paid for doing so.

Quote:
Unfortunately the "new tech" (rehashed old tech - we heard the claims and praise in the 90s with the POD story)
Sure, we've seen the same ads for the POD. But calling these days modelers "rehashed old tech" shows pretty well how little of an experience you seem to have with these days top tier modelers.

Quote:
is not being used to create some thing new and exciting. Rather its there to , for convenience, rehash the same old tones you are so nonchalant about.
Well, if there's someone to praise the same old tones all the time over and over again throughout all these threads, it's gotta be you.

Quote:
Using a new toy you got brainwashed into buying, does not make this new and creative.
*Exactly* the same can be said about the old (and vastly more expensive) old toys you are promoting all throughout. And in fact, anything I heard coming from your studio proves this even more. Same old sounds. Not that they're bad, but please stop telling us that you would even have the slightest interest in "new and creative" sounds. You're proving the opposite with each and every post.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #552
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➡️
Nonsense. There's plenty of folks using new technology because they want to use new technology, not because they're paid for doing so.



Sure, we've seen the same ads for the POD. But calling these days modelers "rehashed old tech" shows pretty well how little of an experience you seem to have with these days top tier modelers.



Well, if there's someone to praise the same old tones all the time over and over again throughout all these threads, it's gotta be you.



*Exactly* the same can be said about the old (and vastly more expensive) old toys you are promoting all throughout. And in fact, anything I heard coming from your studio proves this even more. Same old sounds. Not that they're bad, but please stop telling us that you would even have the slightest interest in "new and creative" sounds. You're proving the opposite with each and every post.
Hmm, I though I had you blocked. I presume all the technical changes on the site, accidently removed the block. Up it goes again
BTW, the sounds we get at the studio are what my clients want and ask for. They also ask for the gear they want to use. Now, coming from someone who never recorded anything, has no education or real studio experience, who is nothing but a troll with nothing constructive to say i find your comments uninteresting. But that's just my view, I am sure there are people here who will support you.
Now where is that blocking function again
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #553
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4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well, you cannot claim they are endorsing any device for its value. Its more how much they get paid for it. Established players dont sell much as guitarists, more as a musician performing on a song. If they can get away with it (and get support from people pushing that music (who also get kickbacks)) they will use whatever. And you will believe its good and run to buy it.
Unfortunately the "new tech" (rehashed old tech - we heard the claims and praise in the 90s with the POD story) is not being used to create some thing new and exciting. Rather its there to , for convenience, rehash the same old tones you are so nonchalant about. With attitude, "i can get away with that, so its good enough". Nothing is new and overly creative there. Using a new toy you got brainwashed into buying, does not make this new and creative.
Unfortunately the public doesn't get a c**p any more. They hear same cover/plagiarism... and because its an MP3 , cant tell the difference. Besides, they are too busy playing games or protesting in the street (for whichever reason, which escapes them). However in the 60s there was music, inspiring and driving the change. Today its private new channels spreading hate.
I don't know what you're basing all that on, but it seems like you might not be well-versed with the circle I'm talking about, such as the new generation of progressive rock, fusion, and metal players that are leading the future of guitar music. Guitarists like Plini, Tosin Abasi, Tim Henson, Arron Marshall, Jack Gardiner, Yvette Young, Ichika Nito, Sarah Longfield, Adam "Nolly" Getgood, Misha Manshoor, Sithu Aye, etc.

They are the ones pushing the envelope now, coming up with new innovations in techniques and styles and sounds. None of them are rehashing old sounds that they are nonchalant about--they are all innovators and highly respected for their contribution in the evolution of guitar-based music that require revolutionary ways of thinking to compose and arrange and produce, and virtuosity to perform.

Also, endorsement deals don't involve payments. Usually, the artists just get free gear, that's all. So why would they want free gear they don't like, don't trust, and feel ****ty playing with? And you are making broad stroke assumptions about the integrity of these very talented and hardworking artists, and that is not nice.

As for rehashing old tech, that is also untrue. That's like saying the moment analog circuitry was invented, no more innovation happened for the next decades and centuries because every innovation and evolution since then were just "rehashing old tech," which is a very skewed way to look at it. Early digital amp sims weren't nearly as advanced in their tech as today's approach with much more detailed component modeling, impulse response capture, etc. Today's software is much more powerful and complex and likely can't even run on the old digital hardware because the old hardware won't have enough processing power to handle it. It's just like how today's video games with its extremely complex and powerful physics engines that can simulate realistic lighting with ray tracing, global illumination, and other advanced real-time rendering algorithms, would not run at all on old Atari game consoles from the 70's, or old Nintendo consoles from the 80's and 90's, or even the most powerful PCs from the aughts. If all digital tech is simply rehashing old tech and not actually innovating, that would not be the case at all.

Last edited by Lunatique; 2 weeks ago at 07:25 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #554
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Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
I don't know what you're basing all that on, but it seems like you might not be well-versed with the circle I'm talking about, such as the new generation of progressive rock, fusion, and metal players that are leading the future of guitar music. Guitarists like Plini, Tosin Abasi, Tim Henson, Arron Marshall, Jack Gardiner, Yvette Young, Ichika Nito, Sarah Longfield, Adam "Nolly" Getgood, Misha Manshoor, Sithu Aye, etc.

They are the ones pushing the envelope now, coming up with new innovations in techniques and styles and sounds. None of them are rehashing old sounds that they are nonchalant about--they are all innovators and highly respected for their contribution in the evolution of guitar-based music that require revolutionary ways of thinking to compose and arrange and produce, and virtuosity to perform.

Also, endorsement deals don't involve payments. Usually, the artists just get free gear, that's all. So why would they want free gear they don't like, don't trust, and feel ****ty playing with? And you are making broad stroke assumptions about the integrity of these very talented and hardworking artists, and that is not nice.

As for rehashing old tech, that is also untrue. That's like saying the moment analog circuitry was invented, no more innovation happened for the next decades and centuries because every innovation and evolution since then were just "rehashing old tech," which is a very skewed way to look at it. Early digital amp sims weren't nearly as advanced in their tech as today's approach with much more detailed component modeling, impulse response capture, etc. Today's software is much more powerful and complex and likely can't even run on the old digital hardware because the old hardware won't have enough processing power to handle it. It's just like how today's video games with its extremely complex and powerful physics engines that can simulate realistic lighting with ray tracing, global illumination, and other advanced real-time rendering algorithms, would not run at all on old Atari game consoles from the 70's, or old Nintendo consoles from the 80's and 90's, or even the most powerful PCs from the aughts. If all digital tech is simply rehashing old tech and not actually innovating, that would not be the case at all.
Endorsements include a % of every sale.
Yes, the alsorithms are better these days, but not quite there. Unless it is a boring prog tone - anything will work there.
BTW I am quite familiar with the work of Tosin Abasi, Aaron Marshall, Jack Gardiner (sorta), Yvette Young (a little, like her acoustic work. Electric stuff is ho-ham), Ichika Nito (a bit better then Yvette), Adam "Nolly" Getgood -bass guy? Whats so special? , Misha Manshoor.
What envelope are they pushing? Especially tonally? Some like Ichika make interesting arrangements but not much traction - its too self-indulgent for the masses
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #555
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
BTW, the sounds we get at the studio are what my clients want and ask for.
So you have clients asking for oldfashioned sounds and you are promoting oldfahioned sounds all the time yourself - and yet you're complaining about people not being more creative.
Yeah, right.

Quote:
Now, coming from someone who never recorded anything, has no education or real studio experience, who is nothing but a troll with nothing constructive to say
Pathetic and laughable. My 10 year old son is doing a better job regarding informed statements in discussions.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #556
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I totally agree on the new tech, new creative thing.

Although it is interesting to see software developers trying to mimic all the old sounds, let's not forget that we should also innovate. New guitar sounds, why not love them? I guess guitar players are very conservative and dogmatic.

Me personally love the super dynamic sound I get from something like a Palmer Speaker sim or any super simple steep filter (and with zero frigging cabinet peak resonances!). Sometimes I prefer it over speakers. And yes I love using IRs as well. Fantastic tones and easy to deal with.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #557
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Lunatique's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Endorsements include a % of every sale.
Yes, the alsorithms are better these days, but not quite there. Unless it is a boring prog tone - anything will work there.
BTW I am quite familiar with the work of Tosin Abasi, Aaron Marshall, Jack Gardiner (sorta), Yvette Young (a little, like her acoustic work. Electric stuff is ho-ham), Ichika Nito (a bit better then Yvette), Adam "Nolly" Getgood -bass guy? Whats so special? , Misha Manshoor.
What envelope are they pushing? Especially tonally? Some like Ichika make interesting arrangements but not much traction - its too self-indulgent for the masses
Not all endorsement deals include sales percentages. Some deals are strictly just free gear and that's it. When it's a more involved deal like artist's signature models of products, or it's a top-tier celebrity level artist, then there would be backend included.

Nolly is not just "the bass guy." He's an accomplished guitarist who's even better than Misha Mansoor (Misha said so himself), and only picked up the bass because Periphery asked him to. He's also one of the most prominent and respected producers and engineers working today in the genre of prog, and is the founder of GetGood Drums.

The musicians I listed are the faces of guitar's future. They are the ones the new generation of players are looking up to and being influenced by. Whether you personally like them or not is completely irrelevant, because they are the ones shaping the future of guitar, not the mainstream pop/rock bands. No aspiring young guitarist is looking to the mainstream stuff as inspiration or as heroes--they are looking to the virtuosos making challenging music that they respect--that is the direction of guitar-based music today, and these are also the guitarists making the "best guitar players" lists. And even if you include the mainstream acts, many of the current new generation are also using the latest digital tech.

I've seen these debates over and over in the past decades. And every single time, the new tech eventually will become the standard and the old tech becomes a niche curiosity. Today, barely anyone shoots film anymore, whether it's movies, TV shows, or photography. But if you go read old forum debates, you'll see how so many were so sure digital could never be legitimate because of whatever reasons. But look at where we are now. It's the same with digital art. All professional artists are using digital now for illustration, concept art, animation, storyboarding, comics, graphic design, fashion design, architectural visualization, etc., and the only artists who are still using traditional tools are those in fine art selling to galleries, and even in the fine art world there are more and more digital artists. No one types on manual typewriters anymore--it's all computers and tablets and word processor software. Music is now all digital, and only a tiny niche portion of music fans are still collecting vinyl or cassettes. VHS is dead and all movies and TV shows are digital now. The list just goes on and on and on.

So this thread, just like the old ones that previously debated all those other things that eventually went digital, will just be another example, whether anyone agrees with it or not. The world will keep marching on, and new masterpieces will be created with the new tech, and everything will be just fine.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #558
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
I've seen these debates over and over in the past decades. And every single time, the new tech eventually will become the standard and the old tech becomes a niche curiosity.
Precisely. I still remember attempting the very Frankfurt Musikmesse when Steinberg announced VSTi. People were laughing their @sses of at those cheesy, beepy sounds, Neon (first VSTi ever) was producing. It also needed a computer which, back then, had to be considered state-of-the-art. Spending big bucks for some cheap beeps and burps, yeah right - at least that was what almost everybody was thinking, including a friend of mine who was there, too. So we had a little bet (price was something like a beer or such). I told him that in no longer than around 5 years (VSTi was introduced in 1999, IIRC, too lazy to look it up), every major studio would be using that technology at least partially.

Needless to say that I've won that bet. Especially in terms of samplers, apart from some special tasks, nobody would be using hardware samplers roughly by 2005 anymore.
And these days, it's even that hardware can't compete with software anymore.

Now, I know, a sampler has been digital from the start, so porting it into the computer realm isn't much of an issue.
But with these days technology, faithfully recreating analog circuits digitally isn't much of an issue anymore, either. Plus, people may not even want to deal with the downsides of analog equipment anymore - and enjoy the "sonic freedom" of the digital world (unless they're like Yuri, of course, who simply hates digital because he's spend a fortune for analog gear).

Last edited by Sascha Franck; 1 week ago at 06:20 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #559
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
Not all endorsement deals include sales percentages. Some deals are strictly just free gear and that's it. When it's a more involved deal like artist's signature models of products, or it's a top-tier celebrity level artist, then there would be backend included.

Nolly is not just "the bass guy." He's an accomplished guitarist who's even better than Misha Mansoor (Misha said so himself), and only picked up the bass because Periphery asked him to. He's also one of the most prominent and respected producers and engineers working today in the genre of prog, and is the founder of GetGood Drums.

The musicians I listed are the faces of guitar's future. They are the ones the new generation of players are looking up to and being influenced by. Whether you personally like them or not is completely irrelevant, because they are the ones shaping the future of guitar, not the mainstream pop/rock bands. No aspiring young guitarist is looking to the mainstream stuff as inspiration or as heroes--they are looking to the virtuosos making challenging music that they respect--that is the direction of guitar-based music today, and these are also the guitarists making the "best guitar players" lists. And even if you include the mainstream acts, many of the current new generation are also using the latest digital tech.

I've seen these debates over and over in the past decades. And every single time, the new tech eventually will become the standard and the old tech becomes a niche curiosity. Today, barely anyone shoots film anymore, whether it's movies, TV shows, or photography. But if you go read old forum debates, you'll see how so many were so sure digital could never be legitimate because of whatever reasons. But look at where we are now. It's the same with digital art. All professional artists are using digital now for illustration, concept art, animation, storyboarding, comics, graphic design, fashion design, architectural visualization, etc., and the only artists who are still using traditional tools are those in fine art selling to galleries, and even in the fine art world there are more and more digital artists. No one types on manual typewriters anymore--it's all computers and tablets and word processor software. Music is now all digital, and only a tiny niche portion of music fans are still collecting vinyl or cassettes. VHS is dead and all movies and TV shows are digital now. The list just goes on and on and on.

So this thread, just like the old ones that previously debated all those other things that eventually went digital, will just be another example, whether anyone agrees with it or not. The world will keep marching on, and new masterpieces will be created with the new tech, and everything will be just fine.
Well, these musicians are heroes for you (and despite the fact they are getting on, your light in the future), however their luck of widespread acceptance should tell you that they are no doing what a musicians duty is - entertain and inspire people. When I look at the response to their stuff on say youtube , the numbers are very low. That's what happens to many self-indulgent musicians, who although are very talented, do not consider their audience and die destitute (Alan Halsworth is one). So great technique will not beat a good simple song, which touches the heart of many.
Modern greats, at least to you, are not doing anything more then rehashing what old bands did, like Yes, Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant.... Except they luck heart. Some use amps, some sims but the fact is its self-indulgent noodling. Have a look at the charts, they are full of country-vibe and Americana-vibe songs. Why? People are trying to get the success their forbearers had.
But the artists of the 60's and 70's sang about something. Something actual. And the guitar was that raw sword that musicians wielded. In America at the time of racism, inequality and need for change, musicians sung songs and played songs in the language their audience could understand (country, folk, blues...), calling them to arms for a better future. Lyrics meant something to their audiences. Raw guitar tones made them feel like the warriors of old, free and strong. In the UK amid the post-war poverty musicians used whatever cheap gear they could afford to bring their point of view across.
That's why the instrument tones of that era became classic. Now, the guitar greats want to impress you with their technique, which most people don't understand. And they use "new technology" designed to emulate old one (badly) still simulating old tones. That's not progress, that's companies trying to sell you their toys, and are using the "new talent" to sell it for them. But whether you use an amp, or a sim which is trying to sort of emulate that amp it changes nothing. Unless you use them in some wonderful way which inspires audiences.
We live in a revolutionary age again (for better or for worth), turmoil in America, Europe, Russia, China. Where are the people inspiring the youth for glory? Nowhere. They are too busy testing new sims and playing delay collages. Or criticising my clients choice of music, which they themselves are incapable of producing (or any other music).
Guitar heroes my a**
Sorry for a long runt.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #560
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
So great technique will not beat a good simple song, which touches the heart of many.
Oh ok - and for those good, simple songs, they need the plethora of analog goodies you've collected? Is that what you're saying?
And if so, please feel free to tell me about the last major hits with guitars playing such a prominent role they just had to be recorded in an all analog environment.
I'd take any bet that these days, the majority of sucessful "good, simple songs" are produced in the digital domain almost entirely.

So, which point exactly is it that you're trying to make to support your analog snobbery?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #561
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well, these musicians are heroes for you (and despite the fact they are getting on, your light in the future), however their luck of widespread acceptance should tell you that they are no doing what a musicians duty is - entertain and inspire people. When I look at the response to their stuff on say youtube , the numbers are very low. That's what happens to many self-indulgent musicians, who although are very talented, do not consider their audience and die destitute (Alan Halsworth is one). So great technique will not beat a good simple song, which touches the heart of many.
Modern greats, at least to you, are not doing anything more then rehashing what old bands did, like Yes, Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant.... Except they luck heart. Some use amps, some sims but the fact is its self-indulgent noodling. Have a look at the charts, they are full of country-vibe and Americana-vibe songs. Why? People are trying to get the success their forbearers had.
But the artists of the 60's and 70's sang about something. Something actual. And the guitar was that raw sword that musicians wielded. In America at the time of racism, inequality and need for change, musicians sung songs and played songs in the language their audience could understand (country, folk, blues...), calling them to arms for a better future. Lyrics meant something to their audiences. Raw guitar tones made them feel like the warriors of old, free and strong. In the UK amid the post-war poverty musicians used whatever cheap gear they could afford to bring their point of view across.
That's why the instrument tones of that era became classic. Now, the guitar greats want to impress you with their technique, which most people don't understand. And they use "new technology" designed to emulate old one (badly) still simulating old tones. That's not progress, that's companies trying to sell you their toys, and are using the "new talent" to sell it for them. But whether you use an amp, or a sim which is trying to sort of emulate that amp it changes nothing. Unless you use them in some wonderful way which inspires audiences.
We live in a revolutionary age again (for better or for worth), turmoil in America, Europe, Russia, China. Where are the people inspiring the youth for glory? Nowhere. They are too busy testing new sims and playing delay collages. Or criticising my clients choice of music, which they themselves are incapable of producing (or any other music).
Guitar heroes my a**
Sorry for a long runt.
So, I just had a look at german, american and international charts. No guitar-centered music in the top 20.
Not even ones with classic, old, tones.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #562
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy ➡️
So, I just had a look at german, american and international charts. No guitar-centered music in the top 20.
Not even ones with classic, old, tones.
In a studio right now. Will have a look when i get back. You need to look at pop charts - many songs have country roots. And all have guitar classic tones
Even some more electronic stuff or "RnB" have it. Not rappy stuff. Not long ago Sheeran and such were all that.
But thats my point - its same stuff about nothing. Except for rap - its all about BLM
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #563
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well, these musicians are heroes for you (and despite the fact they are getting on, your light in the future), however their luck of widespread acceptance should tell you that they are no doing what a musicians duty is - entertain and inspire people. When I look at the response to their stuff on say youtube , the numbers are very low. That's what happens to many self-indulgent musicians, who although are very talented, do not consider their audience and die destitute (Alan Halsworth is one). So great technique will not beat a good simple song, which touches the heart of many.
Modern greats, at least to you, are not doing anything more then rehashing what old bands did, like Yes, Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant.... Except they luck heart. Some use amps, some sims but the fact is its self-indulgent noodling. Have a look at the charts, they are full of country-vibe and Americana-vibe songs. Why? People are trying to get the success their forbearers had.
But the artists of the 60's and 70's sang about something. Something actual. And the guitar was that raw sword that musicians wielded. In America at the time of racism, inequality and need for change, musicians sung songs and played songs in the language their audience could understand (country, folk, blues...), calling them to arms for a better future. Lyrics meant something to their audiences. Raw guitar tones made them feel like the warriors of old, free and strong. In the UK amid the post-war poverty musicians used whatever cheap gear they could afford to bring their point of view across.
That's why the instrument tones of that era became classic. Now, the guitar greats want to impress you with their technique, which most people don't understand. And they use "new technology" designed to emulate old one (badly) still simulating old tones. That's not progress, that's companies trying to sell you their toys, and are using the "new talent" to sell it for them. But whether you use an amp, or a sim which is trying to sort of emulate that amp it changes nothing. Unless you use them in some wonderful way which inspires audiences.
We live in a revolutionary age again (for better or for worth), turmoil in America, Europe, Russia, China. Where are the people inspiring the youth for glory? Nowhere. They are too busy testing new sims and playing delay collages. Or criticising my clients choice of music, which they themselves are incapable of producing (or any other music).
Guitar heroes my a**
Sorry for a long runt.
Everything you wrote was completely out of context of this discussion. Lyrical content, cultural zeitgeist, songwriting that reflect the socio-political climate--none of that has any relevance to this thread's discussion of IR vs real cabinets.

You may look down on those guitarists, but they are guitar's future and are shaping what's to come, and inspiring the next generation. In fact, it's widely agreed they are the ones still keeping guitars relevant in a world dominated by rap beats made with drum machines and samples. To look down on them the way you do is insulting. Do you go around insulting classical and jazz musicians too because they are just doing "self-indulgent noodling" instead of writing socially conscious songs made with cheap gear and raw tones? What're you're doing is comparing musical genres that aim for different things, and it's not a fair or correct comparison. The guitarists I mentioned largely make instrumental music and that is by choice, and if you don't get what they do, it's a deficiency on your part, not theirs.

And when did popularity ever automatically mean importance and meaning or contribution to the artform? Brittney Spears, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift are all household names, but how many serious musicians actually respect them? You used Alan Holdsworth as example, and he is one of the most revered guitar players in the history of the instrument. He is an inspiration to countless guitar players, including some of the the best guitarists in history. If you think mainstream fame and monetary success is the only measure of worth, then we do not share the same values.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #564
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
In a studio right now. Will have a look when i get back. You need to look at pop charts - many songs have country roots. And all have guitar classic tones
Even some more electronic stuff or "RnB" have it. Not rappy stuff. Not long ago Sheeran and such were all that.
But thats my point - its same stuff about nothing. Except for rap - its all about BLM
No, you need to look at the most played and streamed music charts regardless of genre.

And even the music you record in your studio is of no interest to the large majority of the listeners worldwide.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #565
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Well, these musicians are heroes for you (and despite the fact they are getting on, your light in the future), however their luck of widespread acceptance should tell you that they are no doing what a musicians duty is - entertain and inspire people. When I look at the response to their stuff on say youtube , the numbers are very low. That's what happens to many self-indulgent musicians, who although are very talented, do not consider their audience and die destitute (Alan Halsworth is one). So great technique will not beat a good simple song, which touches the heart of many.
Modern greats, at least to you, are not doing anything more then rehashing what old bands did, like Yes, Pink Floyd, Gentle Giant.... Except they luck heart. Some use amps, some sims but the fact is its self-indulgent noodling. Have a look at the charts, they are full of country-vibe and Americana-vibe songs. Why? People are trying to get the success their forbearers had.
But the artists of the 60's and 70's sang about something. Something actual. And the guitar was that raw sword that musicians wielded. In America at the time of racism, inequality and need for change, musicians sung songs and played songs in the language their audience could understand (country, folk, blues...), calling them to arms for a better future. Lyrics meant something to their audiences. Raw guitar tones made them feel like the warriors of old, free and strong. In the UK amid the post-war poverty musicians used whatever cheap gear they could afford to bring their point of view across.
That's why the instrument tones of that era became classic. Now, the guitar greats want to impress you with their technique, which most people don't understand. And they use "new technology" designed to emulate old one (badly) still simulating old tones. That's not progress, that's companies trying to sell you their toys, and are using the "new talent" to sell it for them. But whether you use an amp, or a sim which is trying to sort of emulate that amp it changes nothing. Unless you use them in some wonderful way which inspires audiences.
We live in a revolutionary age again (for better or for worth), turmoil in America, Europe, Russia, China. Where are the people inspiring the youth for glory? Nowhere. They are too busy testing new sims and playing delay collages. Or criticising my clients choice of music, which they themselves are incapable of producing (or any other music).
Guitar heroes my a**
Sorry for a long runt.
Also, why do you argue that people want to hear classic guitar tones and on the same time accusing guitarists of seeking classic tones (with digital tools) and not finding their own sound and then, to top it off, recording classic tones in your studio.
Thats all a bit.... erm... skewed.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #566
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderboy ➡️
Also, why do you argue that people want to hear classic guitar tones and on the same time accusing guitarists of seeking classic tones (with digital tools) and not finding their own sound and then, to top it off, recording classic tones in your studio.
Thats all a bit.... erm... skewed.
There's a clear pattern in Yuris replies all throughout these threads. It's never about actual tonal preferences or about quality of whatever tones. It's exclusively about how these tones were created.

Heck, he's even claiming he'd detect a digital version of a tone when nobody else could. I mean, I even cut together some A/B comparison snipplets in another thread, after he told us he would instantly spot the difference between the analog and digital versions (I even offered to post the Logic project so it was clear I wasn't faking anything). But once there was no clue about which was which anymore, he rejected to take the test and started calling me names (just as in this thread).

I don't know why he's like that - all the folks really interested in pushing their game forward are absolutely interested (and partially fascinated) by modern technology. And well, how could one *not* be?
Yeah, there's still several flaws of digital technology that need to be ironed out, but the main ingredients are there by now, even some of the most die hard tone enthusiasts are agreeing on that.

But then, sure, when you have a studio piled up with incredibly expensive analog equipment, I can pretty much imagine the sour feelings caused by pretty much anyone now being able to get pretty much the same tones from their appartment home dwelling setups.
Doesn't make absurd statements any more valid, though.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #567
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
Everything you wrote was completely out of context of this discussion. Lyrical content, cultural zeitgeist, songwriting that reflect the socio-political climate--none of that has any relevance to this thread's discussion of IR vs real cabinets.

You may look down on those guitarists, but they are guitar's future and are shaping what's to come, and inspiring the next generation. In fact, it's widely agreed they are the ones still keeping guitars relevant in a world dominated by rap beats made with drum machines and samples. To look down on them the way you do is insulting. Do you go around insulting classical and jazz musicians too because they are just doing "self-indulgent noodling" instead of writing socially conscious songs made with cheap gear and raw tones? What're you're doing is comparing musical genres that aim for different things, and it's not a fair or correct comparison. The guitarists I mentioned largely make instrumental music and that is by choice, and if you don't get what they do, it's a deficiency on your part, not theirs.

And when did popularity ever automatically mean importance and meaning or contribution to the artform? Brittney Spears, Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift are all household names, but how many serious musicians actually respect them? You used Alan Holdsworth as example, and he is one of the most revered guitar players in the history of the instrument. He is an inspiration to countless guitar players, including some of the the best guitarists in history. If you think mainstream fame and monetary success is the only measure of worth, then we do not share the same values.
Sorry, but the opinion of musicians filled with self-importance means non at all. In response, Same Britney, Swift, Metallica are laughing every time they get a statement from the bank and pay no interest to self-indulgent noodlers. Neither do people whose tastes they respect and who pay them back for that. Sad but a fact of life.
As a commercial studio owner, I tend to pay most attention to artists who respect their listeners. I enjoy classical and jazz very much, was brought up on that. But these are my tastes. As an engineer/producer it is my job to meet my clients requests. I am not the one to judge other peoples tastes either, its personal.
But from a commercial (and respect) point of view success is for the people who respect their listeners. This means guitarists too - it is very relevant, this is why a majority do what they do. If you are a amateur then there is no discussion, it is all down to taste and your bathroom is a good venue to dream. Use whatever you think gives you your sound.
As for A.>Holdsworth - I like his stuff, have from the 70s. But fact is very few really admire him, I would say many guitarists never heard of him. Sad fact that.
Yes, you are right, despite of my personal tastes, I am in it to do the right thing for my clients, and get reimburse for my knowledge and efforts. I wonder how many people here are in it for the same reason? I would guess a vast majority, especially the people who are making a living from playing.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #568
Lives for gear
 
Lunatique's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan ➡️
Sorry, but the opinion of musicians filled with self-importance means non at all. In response, Same Britney, Swift, Metallica are laughing every time they get a statement from the bank and pay no interest to self-indulgent noodlers. Neither do people whose tastes they respect and who pay them back for that. Sad but a fact of life.
As a commercial studio owner, I tend to pay most attention to artists who respect their listeners. I enjoy classical and jazz very much, was brought up on that. But these are my tastes. As an engineer/producer it is my job to meet my clients requests. I am not the one to judge other peoples tastes either, its personal.
But from a commercial (and respect) point of view success is for the people who respect their listeners. This means guitarists too - it is very relevant, this is why a majority do what they do. If you are a amateur then there is no discussion, it is all down to taste and your bathroom is a good venue to dream. Use whatever you think gives you your sound.
As for A.>Holdsworth - I like his stuff, have from the 70s. But fact is very few really admire him, I would say many guitarists never heard of him. Sad fact that.
Yes, you are right, despite of my personal tastes, I am in it to do the right thing for my clients, and get reimburse for my knowledge and efforts. I wonder how many people here are in it for the same reason? I would guess a vast majority, especially the people who are making a living from playing.
I don't know why you are painting those guitar players as self-important and self-indulgent noodlers, but then in the same breath you say you like and respect jazz and classical. Progressive rock is far more similar to classical and jazz than almost any other genres of music, as prog musicians are usually heavily influenced by jazz and classical (and of course rock), and like jazz and classical, requires virtuosity to perform.

Also, all of those guitarists I mentioned (with the exception of Tim Henson) are very humble and nice people, who make music they're passionate about. If you read/watch any interviews with them you'll immediately see that. You seem to think they are insufferable self-important egomaniacs, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
Old 1 week ago
  #569
Gear Addict
 
Raaphorst's Avatar
Scroll back to The Beatles or any creative band. They would/will use anything.

Rock 'n' roll came with artefacts. It's the acceptance, the enjoyment of artefacts, true wabi sabi. It was never meant to sound perfect or by anybody's rules. It was always about breaking the rules and innovate. But I guess the new conservatives are doing things by the Book of Retro. All things analog are good and all things digital are evil. I guess many people don't agree on this, they just love to experiment with new tech. It's retro versus innovation.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #570
Lives for gear
 
Yuri Kogan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatique ➡️
I don't know why you are painting those guitar players as self-important and self-indulgent noodlers, but then in the same breath you say you like and respect jazz and classical. Progressive rock is far more similar to classical and jazz than almost any other genres of music, as prog musicians are usually heavily influenced by jazz and classical (and of course rock), and like jazz and classical, requires virtuosity to perform.

Also, all of those guitarists I mentioned (with the exception of Tim Henson) are very humble and nice people, who make music they're passionate about. If you read/watch any interviews with them you'll immediately see that. You seem to think they are insufferable self-important egomaniacs, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
Nice people? Of course. Humble? Well, some. I don't seem to think - I know many. Especially in this country. Don't get me wrong, I love classical, jazz and doubled myself in jazz-rock many moons ago. The problem these brilliant people have is that they have to work 10hs/day in a supermarket to pay bills. This great music was mainly relevant in the days when nobility had all the time in the world to think about the high matters and enjoy the complex music. Some composers though used folk music as a basis to make it more palatable. These days NOBODY listens to music unless it fits some context - background noise in a pub, elevator music, movie soundtracks, games... People don't even get high enough to dwell in the purple haze. Its all games , reality shows, pretend violence, Kardashians, Jersey Shore...
What does it mean? It means music inspires no-one. When it becomes inspirational enough then you can talk about best tools to achieve that. Not dismiss "classic" music and "new tools " which by badly emulating old ones allows you to change anything
Sorry, another long one. But thats what you should be thinking about, its a fact of life.
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