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Josephson C700S - clips and comments
Old 9th March 2013
  #1
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🎧 15 years
Josephson C700S - clips and comments

A new Josephson C700S surround microphone has arrived and I will eventually post some three channel clips and stereo mixes. Other GS members are encouraged to also post C700S clips from captures they've made with theirs.

The microphone Data Sheet is here. The User Guide is attached below.

I'm excited to see how well this mic images a soundstage in stereo and eager to learn how to mix its native 3 channel Ambisonic B-format signals:
W = omni
X = front/rear fig-8
Y = left/right fig-8
Physical: The mic body is 30cm long (11.81 inches). A shock mount is internal. A 12' 7-wire Mogami cable is attached to the body and a breakout pigtail is supplied, converting the 7-wire end to 3 XLR connectors - all Neutrik. It all comes in a top quality Pelican hard case with Josephson logo on the lid.

Processing to Stereo
For MS processing, Y is the side channel. The mid channel is either W (omni) or X (fig-8), or they can be mixed together to produce any cardioid pattern from narrow to wide. A crossed Blumlein can be realized very simply just by placing the mic that way, or an equivalent can be derived in a mixer or DAW, though I don't understand yet how to do that or so many other things this technique is capable of.

With graphical controls that may make coincident post processing easier, the Harpex Plug-in can also synthesize the effect of several familiar non-coincident array types from the microphone's three channels. You just put Harpex Plug-in on a 3ch poly track. Supported arrays are:
XY: Coincident cardioid microphones at 90° angle
Blumlein: Coincident figure-of-eight microphones at 90° angle
AB: Spaced omnidirectional microphones
ORTF: Spaced (17 cm) cardioid microphones at 110° angle
DIN: Spaced (20 cm) cardioid microphones at 90° angle
NOS: Spaced (30 cm) cardioid microphones at 90° angle
ADDED: Four audio clips. The baroque period orchestra and choir were captured with the C700S (85%) and flank mics (15%). Vocal spot was Schoeps M/S. Chain was DAV BG preamp > Mytek ADC. Mixed w some subtractive EQ and mastered with Elephant and .5dB"air" boost at 27K. All the ambiance is natural; hall RT is >4 seconds.

August 12, 2013: Added Faure clip 1 below. Also a longer clip of a different movement here, Faure clip 2. Both recorded with one C700S, 2 Gordon Model 5 micamps and Mytek ADC.

Photos courtesy of my talented friend and colleague, Bob Powell.
Attached Thumbnails
Josephson C700S - clips and comments-c700s-case.jpg   Josephson C700S - clips and comments-c700s-pigtail.jpg   Josephson C700S - clips and comments-josephson-c700s.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf srs7ug.pdf (100.6 KB, 493 views)

Clip01.wav (8.66 MB, 5889 views)

Clip03.wav (7.89 MB, 5400 views)

Clip02.wav (8.62 MB, 5144 views)

Clip04.wav (9.00 MB, 4977 views)

Faure clip 1.wav (9.50 MB, 5406 views)


Last edited by MichaelPatrick; 20th May 2013 at 06:31 AM.. Reason: added 4 audio clips
Old 9th March 2013
  #2
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Thanks, looking forward to hearing the samples. Especially how you mix it's "soundstage in stereo image". What preamps are you using?
David Josephson is a champion in my book. We are fortunate that high-level gear is still being made in this world of cheapness.
Old 9th March 2013 | Show parent
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
What preamps are you using?
Good question. I added this info to my opening post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➡️
David Josephson is a champion in my book. We are fortunate that high-level gear is still being made in this world of cheapness.
100%

Josephson is one of the best microphone makers in the world. Their engineering is passionate, like the old Neumann/Gefell company, but with updated designs and state-of-the-art industrial techniques. They've achieved excellent production consistency equal to B&K, Schoeps, Gefell and the like, and every mic they make is unique or a best in class. I don't know any other manufacturers who make a native B-format microphone. It's a brilliant and simple idea executed beautifully.
Old 9th March 2013 | Show parent
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
.....I don't know any other people, for example, who make a native B-format microphone. It's simply a brilliant idea executed beautifully.
(Calrec) Soundfield? Did they not work out the design of Gerson into a practical working system in the mid seventees?
Old 9th March 2013
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
(Calrec) Soundfield? Did they not work out the design of Gerson into a practical working system in the mid seventees?
I imagine you know the Soundfield history better than I do. The theory precedes Josephson, of course, and Soundfield too I believe.

I could be wrong but think Soundfield makes only A-format microphones, albeit with processors.
Old 9th March 2013 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
(Calrec) Soundfield? Did they not work out the design of Gerson into a practical working system in the mid seventees?
A "native" B-Format mic system will capture B-Format natively, or directly if you prefer: that is the direct output the capsules will be W, X, Y and, possibly, Z.

SoundField microphones outputs A-Format signal: it has to be converted into B-Format. So, AFAIK, the Josephson C700S is the only self-contained native B-Format microphone.
Old 9th March 2013
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Michael - From your notes it seems the DS60 would work, too. I can use it in MS mode as a Blumlein MS rig and then copy the front-back channels to two additional tracks and not invert the back channel yielding an omni channel. The tracks would all have to be combined, yielding Front-back Fig8, Left-right Fig8 and omni. But that is just a few minutes in the DAW. The benefit for me would be the stereo options. But, £498 is more than I want to spend, right now. LOL I really think that drug addiction might be cheaper.

We will all be interested in how this Harpex project works for you.
Old 9th March 2013 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kewl ➡️
A "native" B-Format mic system will capture B-Format natively, or directly if you prefer: that is the direct output the capsules will be W, X, Y and, possibly, Z.

SoundField microphones outputs A-Format signal: it has to be converted into B-Format. So, AFAIK, the Josephson C700S is the only self-contained native B-Format microphone.
What is inside the Josephson? Two figure of eights and one omni capsule? What about the Schoeps Portaflex system?
Old 9th March 2013
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum
... it seems the DS60 would work, too. I can use it in MS mode as a Blumlein MS rig and then copy the front-back channels to two additional tracks and not invert the back channel yielding an omni channel. The tracks would all have to be combined, yielding Front-back Fig8, Left-right Fig8 and omni. But that is just a few minutes in the DAW. The benefit for me would be the stereo options.
I'd bet you know better than I just how this is done, but it seems that a preparatory 1st step is required to synthesize an W (omni) channel from the two fig-8s. Can you then derive --with a synthetic W channel-- variable cardioid patterns? This is natural and easy with a real pressure omni (W) and fig-8 (X or Y).
Old 10th March 2013
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kewl ➡️
A "native" B-Format mic system will capture B-Format natively, or directly if you prefer: that is the direct output the capsules will be W, X, Y and, possibly, Z.

SoundField microphones outputs A-Format signal: it has to be converted into B-Format. So, AFAIK, the Josephson C700S is the only self-contained native B-Format microphone.
Soundfield's less expensive mic does indeed output A format. All the other Soundfield mics are B format mics that output B format AND stereo at the same time. (In either stereo or undecoded m/s)

I am looking forward to the report about the Josephson.

Atelier HudSonic, Chicago
Old 10th March 2013
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
... Soundfield mics are B format mics that output B format AND stereo at the same time. (In either stereo or undecoded m/s)...
Question: Are the capsules physically arrayed to directly output B-format signals or is there a transcoding processor between the mic and the B outputs?
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
I'd bet you know better than I just how this is done, but it seems that a preparatory 1st step is required to synthesize an W (omni) channel from the two fig-8s. Can you then derive --with a synthetic W channel-- variable cardioid patterns? This is natural and easy with a real pressure omni (W) and fig-8 (X or Y).
Michael - The front and back channel together, back to back cards, work as an omni. Reverse the back and there is one figure 8, reverse the right channel and along with the left there is the other figure 8. I suppose I could sum all four for an omni but Pearl says just the opposing two will do it. The software you have mentioned would allow me much variety with the one mic, but it US$750 to get that. I'd have to think about that.


We will all be interested in your experiences with Harpex.
Old 10th March 2013
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum ➡️
...The software you have mentioned would allow me much variety with the one mic, but it US$750 to get that. I'd have to think about that.
Having never used it myself, I wouldn't recommend Harpex (yet), but the Player plugin is free. The one with all the advanced surround features costs real money.
Old 10th March 2013
  #14
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Harpex is absolutely worth the money. Try the demo and I think you'll find the money from somewhere.

Regards,

John
Old 10th March 2013
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelThe manual says the Player can emulate these arrays:
[I
XY: Coincident cardioid microphones at 90° angle
Blumlein: Coincident figure-of-eight microphones at 90° angle
AB: Spaced omnidirectional microphones
ORTF: Spaced (17 cm) cardioid microphones at 110° angle
DIN: Spaced (20 cm) cardioid microphones at 90° angle
NOS: Spaced (30 cm) cardioid microphones at 90° angle
[/I]
It should also be able to emulate MS but I do not see how no coincident configurations could be emulated from coincident capsules.
Old 10th March 2013
  #16
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I might try this with 2 x MKH 30 and a MKH 20.
The omni will mount parallel to the 8s ,hopefully without shadowing
At last ,a reason to buy a SD744/788......

My ancient STC 4033a uses an omni and a ribbon for wide card.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum ➡️
Michael - The front and back channel together, back to back cards, work as an omni. Reverse the back and there is one figure 8, reverse the right channel and along with the left there is the other figure 8. I suppose I could sum all four for an omni but Pearl says just the opposing two will do it. The software you have mentioned would allow me much variety with the one mic, but it US$750 to get that. I'd have to think about that.


We will all be interested in your experiences with Harpex.
Boojum, I do not think you need any software. The fact your microphone has four independant cardioïds, means you have 4 independant outputs for the horizontal plane to your disposal. The whole trick of the Josephson is it synthesizes surround out of two figure of eights and one omni directional reference capsule. Your microphone does not need any matrix for surround, it's already built in your system.

Calrec Soundfield uses also 4 cardioïds in an even more clever configuration, the tetrahedral set-up designed by Michael Gerzon and friends. Here you even get the Z-vertical plane into the equation. The Josephson does not have the Z-axis component, as far as I have understood. It is fairly impossible to mechanically design a microphone with 3 figure of eights in the X,Y,Z planes and one omni on top of it, and not obstructing the soundwaves or create phase issues in the high frequency band. That is why Gerzon came up with the tetrahedral construction. In that sense Calrec Soundfield is the most sophisticated microphone offering this sort of flexibility.

In the end it is all about how it sounds. I have no experience with the Soundfield system of Calrec, all depends very much on the quality of the membranes used.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
What about the Schoeps Portaflex system?
Not intending to pull Michael's thread off topic, but this free "Polarflex" plugin, not restricted to Schoeps capsules, allows mixing the output of two coincidentally-aligned mics - e.g. an omni and Fig-8 - to generate a new intermediate pattern. You can chose a different output pattern for each of three (variable) frequency bands (e.g.omni from 50 - 400 Hz, cardioid from 400 - 2000Hz etc.) Thus you could run an AB array, where "A" and "B" are each the mic-duo; feed the 4 separate mic signals to your DAW and the VST plug does the rest, with graphical feedback. Moreover, you could adjust the imaging perspective during the concert time-line, perhaps to accentuate the bass, cut hall reverb or bring a soloist closer at a dramatic point.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest ➡️
It should also be able to emulate MS...
MS decode is built-in. In the fancy paid version you can even turn the axis 360deg to put any sound source in the center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest ➡️
...but I do not see how non coincident configurations could be emulated from coincident capsules.
I'm with you. I'll be impressed if they actually work!
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
Question: Are the capsules physically arrayed to directly output B-format signals or is there a transcoding processor between the mic and the B outputs?
Hello Michael,

The full size Soundfield mics--SPS422B, MK V etc. can output the separate capsules (B format) on 4 xlr connectors. Then, also, built in to the box is a decoder that outputs stereo or m/s. So this is a regular stereo output.

The SPS422B that I use is a stereo mic + B format mic. The B format can be worked with in various software in post.

The MK V allows for adjustment of tilt, closeness (nearer or farther away,) left right orientation etc. in real time at the recording or in post.

All Soundfield mics are made to be used at distance because if you get really close, you have some faulty imaging going on.

I find them to work the best in a stone church.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
...The whole trick of the Josephson is it synthesizes surround out of two figure of eights and one omni directional reference capsule.
By design, the Josephson mic directly provides all three horizontal B-format signals. There is NO synthesizing. By definition this is a natural B-format microphone:

First-order Ambisonics and B-Format (from Wikipedia)
In the basic version, known as first-order Ambisonics, sound information is encoded into four channels: W, X, Y and Z. This is called Ambisonic B-format. The W channel is the non-directional mono component of the signal, corresponding to the output of an omnidirectional microphone. The X, Y and Z channels are the directional components in three dimensions. They correspond to the outputs of three figure-of-eight microphones, facing forward, to the left, and upward respectively.
I'd prefer that we reserve "synthesize" to describe a complex process, something like this:
  • Native = as designed, natural, no processing is required
  • Derived = simple addition and subtraction produces the desired output
  • Synthesized or Emulated = complex processing transcodes between formats or creates an effect
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
By design, the Josephson mic directly provides all three horizontal B-format signals. There is NO synthesizing. By definition this is a natural B-format microphone:

First-order Ambisonics and B-Format (from Wikipedia)
In the basic version, known as first-order Ambisonics, sound information is encoded into four channels: W, X, Y and Z. This is called Ambisonic B-format. The W channel is the non-directional mono component of the signal, corresponding to the output of an omnidirectional microphone. The X, Y and Z channels are the directional components in three dimensions. They correspond to the outputs of three figure-of-eight microphones, facing forward, to the left, and upward respectively.
I'd prefer that we reserve "synthesize" to describe a complex process, something like this:
  • Native = as designed, natural, no processing is required
  • Derived = simple addition and subtraction produces the desired output
  • Synthesized or Emulated = complex processing transcodes between formats or creates an effect
Well, I do not think these computer software types on the market are that very simple as a hardwired MS matrix with transformers from the 60s. Therefore I used the word synthesize, but "derive" is OK for me. For me any computer interference is synthesizing.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush ➡️
Hello Michael,

The full size Soundfield mics--SPS422B, MK V etc. can output the separate capsules (B format) on 4 xlr connectors. Then, also, built in to the box is a decoder that outputs stereo or m/s. So this is a regular stereo output.

The SPS422B that I use is a stereo mic + B format mic. The B format can be worked with in various software in post.

The MK V allows for adjustment of tilt, closeness (nearer or farther away,) left right orientation etc. in real time at the recording or in post.

All Soundfield mics are made to be used at distance because if you get really close, you have some faulty imaging going on.

I find them to work the best in a stone church.
Soundfield's approach excels in that the surround microphone is small and you get full-sphere B-format for post production. But for the sake of comparison with Josephson's approach, the Soundfield SPS422B B-format signals are not produced by the microphone itself. The microphone outputs A-format signals that are transcoded to B-format signals:
The SoundField microphone itself contains four capsules, mounted in a tetrahedral array (tetrahedral describes an equilateral triangle). This tetrahedral capsule array, combined with its dedicated 1U processor allows the SPS422B to become different kinds of microphones by varying individual capsule combinations.
In the end, both mics give us B-format signals for creative post processing with a mixer or graphical tools like Harpex. I think it's worth comparing the design approaches because each has some advantages and disadvantages.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
Well, I do not think these computer software types on the market are that very simple as a hardwired MS matrix with transformers from the 60s. Therefore I used the word synthesize, but "derive" is OK for me. For me any computer interference is synthesizing.
Good point. Well taken.
Old 10th March 2013
  #25
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Milab SRD 360

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
Soundfield's approach excels in that the surround microphone is small and you get full-sphere B-format for post production. But for the sake of comparison with Josephson's approach, the Soundfield SPS422B B-format signals are not produced by the microphone itself
The fact the Soundfield microphone is rather compact is of importance for the time aligning of the capsules. The more the capsules are seperated the more phase issues may occur at high frequencies. By using cardioïd capsules the omni and figure of eight components are molded together.

Pure mathematically there is no difference. What makes the comparison between the Soundfield and Josephson difficult is the fact the Soundfield has the Z-axis within its possibilities.

Therefore it may be more simple to compare the Josephson with the Milab SRD360 microphone. Look here: Milab SRND 360

As you know a cardioïd capsule is the combination of omni and figure of eight, so Josephson's concept can also be derived from 3 cardioïd capsules equally distributed over 360 degrees in the horizontal plane. I see your point that you see an advantage to actually getting the components of the X and Y figure of eights on two outputs and the omni at the W output, but the three capsules of the Milab 360 create the same result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
Good point. Well taken.
Thank You, You're welcome. Adorno
Old 10th March 2013
  #26
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Hi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➡️
Soundfield's approach excels in that the surround microphone is small and you get full-sphere B-format for post production. But for the sake of comparison with Josephson's approach, the Soundfield SPS422B B-format signals are not produced by the microphone itself. The microphone outputs A-format signals that are transcoded to B-format signals:
The SoundField microphone itself contains four capsules, mounted in a tetrahedral array (tetrahedral describes an equilateral triangle). This tetrahedral capsule array, combined with its dedicated 1U processor allows the SPS422B to become different kinds of microphones by varying individual capsule combinations.
In the end, both mics give us B-format signals for creative post processing with a mixer or graphical tools like Harpex. I think it's worth comparing the design approaches because each has some advantages and disadvantages.
No, the mic is a b format mic with direct b format outputs off of the capsules. The processor acts on this b format signal to create stereo output, not the other way around.

I'm not trying to compare the Soundfield to your new Josephson. I'm just trying to state accurately how the Soundfield works. At least 3 posters have described it wrongly so far in this thread.

Perhaps your point was that the Soundfield mic requires its processor box to access the b format output.

I'm stoked to learn more about your new mic.
Old 10th March 2013
  #27
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In addition to the Milab 360 there is the LineAudio QM12i Quad: LINE AUDIO DESIGN All his mics are back ordered due to the popularity of the CM3 and OM1 but he will put you on a list. The dealer who is on this board, JP Gerard, would have more info.
Old 10th March 2013
  #28
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A Soundfield microphone kit, consisting of the microphone and a signal processor, produces two distinct sets of audio signals called A-Format and B-Format.

The A-Format is the signals from four microphones on the faces of a tetrahedron.

The first set, the A-Format, is produced by the Soundfield microphone itself and consists of the four signals from the microphone capsules. These four signals are not intended to be used without further processing. The A-Format is normally transformed into the second set of audio signals, the B-Format. Depending on the microphone model, this transformation can be performed in either hardware or software.


The B-Format is the standard audio format produced by a soundfield kit. It consists of the following four signals:

W - a pressure signal corresponding to the output from an omnidirectional microphone
X - the front-to-back directional information, a forward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Y - the side-to-side directional information, a leftward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Z - the up-to-down directional information, an upward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone

These are the constant (W) and linear (X, Y, Z) terms in the multipole expansion of a function on the sphere – in effect, it approximates the wave field on a sphere around the microphone.

It is possible to recreate the three dimensional soundfield, however the soundfield microphone particularly shows its versatility in a stereo or mono application. For example, a forward-facing cardioid is produced by\sqrt2 W + X. By combining the signals in various proportions, it is possible to derive any number of first-order microphones, pointing in any direction, before and after recording. For instance, provided the W, X, Y and Z signals are recorded separately, it is possible to pinpoint the microphone to a certain response from the audience even after recording. Examples of software that perform these calculations are Visual Virtual Microphone, SoundField's Surround Zone and Ambisonic Studio's B2X decoders plug-ins.

In other words, the B-format recording can be decoded to model any number of microphones pointing in arbitrary directions: each microphone's pattern can be selected to be omnidirectional, cardioid, hypercardioid, figure-of-eight, or anything in between. This can be done live or in post-production (after the recording is made).

The playback configuration is equally flexible. Again in post-production, the B-format recording can be decoded to any number of speakers arranged in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Note however that this information only allows the direction of sound at the microphone to be reproduced – microphone responses pointing in any direction can be synthesized, but it does not allow the reconstruction of what a microphone at a different point in space would record. To do that requires reconstructing the wave field in more detail (as in wave field synthesis).

The Josephson is not a B-format microphone according the definitions of Calrec, because Josephson's microphone does not include the height information Z, which is a crucial part of the Calrec Soundfield B-format.
Old 10th March 2013 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno ➡️
A Soundfield microphone kit, consisting of the microphone and a signal processor, produces two distinct sets of audio signals called A-Format and B-Format.

The A-Format is the signals from four microphones on the faces of a tetrahedron.

The first set, the A-Format, is produced by the Soundfield microphone itself and consists of the four signals from the microphone capsules. These four signals are not intended to be used without further processing. The A-Format is normally transformed into the second set of audio signals, the B-Format. Depending on the microphone model, this transformation can be performed in either hardware or software.

The B-Format is the standard audio format produced by a soundfield kit. It consists of the following four signals:

W - a pressure signal corresponding to the output from an omnidirectional microphone
X - the front-to-back directional information, a forward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Y - the side-to-side directional information, a leftward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Z - the up-to-down directional information, an upward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Ah, my Wikipedia entry (modified since, but still).

So, any tetrahedral array with sub-cardioid or cardiod caps is A-Format. Those arrays need a processing box, either hardware (analog or digital) or software, to convert to B-Format.

The Josephson C700S is directly B-Format.

No more, no less.
Old 10th March 2013
  #30
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kewl ➡️
...any tetrahedral array with sub-cardioid or cardiod caps is A-Format. Those arrays need a processing box, either hardware (analog or digital) or software, to convert to B-Format.

The Josephson C700S is directly B-Format.

No more, no less.
Thanks Daniel. It helps sometimes to have an expert in the house!
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