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Josephson C700S - clips and comments
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #91
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
Well, I've had this mic for awhile now and my impressions of it have gone through some changes.

Yes, it is an exceptionally simple surround mic that doesn't need special processing to produce useful channels from stereo to 7.1. Yes, the sound is gorgeous out of the box. Yes, it is simple to adjust sound-stage width like any M/S mic. Yes, it is even simple to adjust the mid pattern - unlike any M/S mic.

However, what makes it truly special is the pressure capsule, or "W" channel. Unlike any crossed fig-8s, this gives the pickup a true and tight bottom end that goes down into the basement of audible frequencies. As a friend recently told me, "it's an M/S without any compromises".

I've attached some clips from a recent concert captured only with the C700S - no spots, no flankers. They are mixed and mastered.

Chain: C700S > Gordon 5 > Mytek 8x96 ADC > SD788T.

Is it just me, or is there some clipping of the flute's
high note at about 22 seconds into the first sample??
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #92
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul678 ➑️
Is it just me, or is there some clipping of the flute's high note at about 22 seconds into the first sample??
The clip has 4.8 dB headroom and isn't distorted. Try playback on a reference system.
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #93
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
As a friend recently told me, "it's an M/S without any compromises".
Fine recordings with excellent, convincing imaging (though a mite too close for my taste.)

But surely there always has to be some compromises? For one can certainly get any desired M pattern and get any soundstage width, but those parameters are not truly _independent_ of the third parameter: a deep, solid bottom end. For example, a judicious blend of the omni W and Fig8 component will give a cardioid - but with a wimpy bottom end inherited from the Fig8 parental chromosome. As you said, one can beef up that bottom end by injecting more W into the blend...but then you end up with a subcardioid.

Granted, a Josephson-generated cardioid pattern may well wipe the floor with that from a compromise-ridden, all-in-one cardioid offering.
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #94
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McC ➑️
Fine recordings with excellent, convincing imaging (though a mite too close for my taste.)
I also prefer more distance. My clients, the chamber musicians, like it close.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McC ➑️
But surely there always has to be some compromises? For one can certainly get any desired M pattern and get any soundstage width, but those parameters are not truly _independent_ of the third parameter: a deep, solid bottom end. For example, a judicious blend of the omni W and Fig8 component will give a cardioid - but with a wimpy bottom end inherited from the Fig8 parental chromosome. As you said, one can beef up that bottom end by injecting more W into the blend...but then you end up with a subcardioid.
No mic can overturn physical laws. This is as good as it gets. There's definitely a huge improvement over crossed-8 and most MS mics. LF-boosting from a real pressure omni sounds better because the pickup is flat and unaffected by proximity. Also, an EQ boost of the pressure mic only changes the pattern of boosted frequencies. And LFs are less directional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McC ➑️
Granted, a Josephson-generated cardioid pattern may well wipe the floor with that from a compromise-ridden, all-in-one cardioid offering.
I think so. It's a unique design. I imagine others will start copying it when enough recording engineers recognize how revolutionary it is.
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #95
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick ➑️
The clip has 4.8 dB headroom and isn't distorted. Try playback on a reference system.
I'm listening with my pristine HS80Ms.

Opps! My bad! Apologies to the OP.

Mr. Rumley is correct: I had the input gain set at +4dBu. So I cranked it
all the way up to -10dBV, and turned the volume down on my computer,
and the flute is clean.

Is it possible that it's the D/A converter in my computer's sound card
that is the one that is clipping? Or is it definitely in the front end
of the HS80Ms?
Old 21st June 2013
  #96
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rumleymusic's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
I'm listening with my pristine HS80Ms.
The Yamahas distort easily at the input, I speak from experience there. I hear no flute clipping. Try turning down the send to the monitors and raising the gain in the back.
Old 21st June 2013 | Show parent
  #97
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic ➑️
The Yamahas distort easily at the input, I speak from experience there. I hear no flute clipping. Try turning down the send to the monitors and raising the gain in the back.
Opps! My bad! Apologies to the OP.

Mr. Rumley is correct: I had the input gain set at +4dBu. So I cranked it
all the way up to -10dBV, and turned the volume down on my computer,
and the flute is clean. Which model do you have, Daniel?

Is it possible that it's the D/A converter in my computer's sound card
that is the one that is clipping? Or is it definitely in the front end
of the HS80Ms?

I'll be leaving these babies cranked all the way up from now on......

THANKS!

Old 11th August 2013
  #98
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Today I added a short clip to the opening post, Faure clip 1. Recorded with 1 mic, the C700S, 2 Gordon Model 5 micamps and Mytek ADC. Another, longer WAV clip from the same performance can be downloaded here.
Old 12th August 2013
  #99
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Can you get a joystick for these things? I've wanted to try one of these things for years. Reading about it ca. 1998 inspired me to try an x/y (MK 5) over an omni (MK5) and also 2 wide cardioids (MK 21) back to back over an omni (MK5). I haven't ever needed to record surround. These don't need a matrix. Crossed 8s make me nauseous, my head spins when I hear it. I experimented with quadrophonic and flipped left and right for the rear channels (-L and -R from the 8s) using a c24 and that made me feel better. Not much use for it though. I believe that the soundfield uses the processor to make the A output but just passes the capsules straight through to direct outputs or what use would they be??? The idea would be to experiment with your own matrixes. It's just a matter of +and-, you could appy delays if you like but then why would you design a mic so small and phase coherent and then ruin it by emulating an inferior array??? I remember that one of the examples for the josephson for stereo was to cross feed the negative x and y signals, that made sense to me and would probably stop my head from spinning, so I tried it with cardiods, no minus. Good luck with the mic, I wish I could get my hands on one to compare it with what I'd been doing. I've stopped for awhile now. The Line Audio mic looks interesting, the Josephson could have 5 ouputs I guess, wouldn,t be much use

Sent from my SM-T210R
Old 15th October 2013 | Show parent
  #100
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Michael. Great thread. Thank you for posting the clips and all of this great information. I've been seriously considering investing in this mic. I'm curious if it's possible to a achieve a coincident stereo image with this microphone by turning the mic 45 degrees. It seems to me that by utilizing the two Figure 8/gradient capsules (X & Y) in a Blumlein configuration and then by blending in the desired amount of the pressure/omni signal (W) at the mixing stage one can achieve a standard X-Y configuration, i.e. 2 cardioid mics at 90 degrees. Is it possible to use the mic in this way? It stands to reason that there may some off-axis coloration of the the pressure/omni mic when used in this fashion but I'd be curious to know if that technique would work. Or is the C700S designed to be used solely as a M-S microphone?
Old 15th October 2013 | Show parent
  #101
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayoski ➑️
Hey Michael. Great thread. Thank you for posting the clips and all of this great information. I've been seriously considering investing in this mic. I'm curious if it's possible to a achieve a coincident stereo image with this microphone by turning the mic 45 degrees. It seems to me that by utilizing the two Figure 8/gradient capsules (X & Y) in a Blumlein configuration and then by blending in the desired amount of the pressure/omni signal (W) at the mixing stage one can achieve a standard X-Y configuration, i.e. 2 cardioid mics at 90 degrees. Is it possible to use the mic in this way? It stands to reason that there may some off-axis coloration of the the pressure/omni mic when used in this fashion but I'd be curious to know if that technique would work. Or is the C700S designed to be used solely as a M-S microphone?
It is designed for 360 horizontal Ambisonic B format but fully supports M-S encoding. I would not turn the capsule for Blumlein but it can be done. The internal shock mounting basket has an up-down tilt feature that would have to be locked in place and unused if you turned the basket, say 45 deg.

Using it in Blumlein would take away the center-facing cardiod pattern that's adjustable in post. With this mic I don't miss Blumlein at all. In fact, it overcomes a disadvantage of Blumlein -- i.e. distance from the ensemble needs to be just right. With this mic you can make adjustments in post to compensate for near/far placement variations.

The clips I've posted thus far are not ideal. I hope to have some clips in a few months to show better what this thing can do.
Old 15th October 2013 | Show parent
  #102
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jayoski ➑️
I'm curious if it's possible to a achieve a coincident stereo image with this microphone by turning the mic 45 degrees. It seems to me that by utilizing the two Figure 8/gradient capsules (X & Y) in a Blumlein configuration and then by blending in the desired amount of the pressure/omni signal (W) at the mixing stage one can achieve a standard X-Y configuration, i.e. 2 cardioid mics at 90 degrees. Is it possible to use the mic in this way?
Hi jayoski. With theoretically perfect mic polar patterns, an XY array of cardioids at 90Β° is obtainable by sum & diff. matrixing of an MS pair, provided that::

1. the M mic is a subcardioid of polar pattern, "V = 0.745 + 0.255.cos.theta",
and at the same time:

2. The M channel is boosted by +11.87dB relative to that of the Fig8 S. (assuming equal mic sensitivities)

It follows then that this should be easy to accomplish in post with the Josephson, by:

a). Set up the Josephson with one Fig8 pointing frontwards and the other pointing hard left

b). Mix its omni signal with its front-pointing Fig8 in the ratio 74.5 :25.5. (i.e omni at +9.31dB). This gives the "intermediate" M subcardioid.

c) Sum & diff. matrix the intermediate M subcardioid obtained from step "b" with the left Fig8, using 11.87dB extra gain for the subcardioid.

But what scenario did you have in mind for cardioid XY at 90Β°? Such an array will give a narrow soundstage.
Old 8th June 2014
  #103
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
The free Surroundzone2 plugin for decoding B-format is available for download from
TSL Products | SoundField SurroundZone2
Old 8th June 2014
  #104
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Folkie, thanks for the link. I can't wait to try it !
Old 13th June 2014 | Show parent
  #105
RPC
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kewl ➑️
Hum... I would say that adding two back to back cardioids together (or four cardioids on a tetrahedron) to produce an omni will result in the same characteristic regarding low frequency response than a "real" (single cap) omni: the summing is, in effect, eliminating the figure-8 component which is responsible for distance-dependent low frequency response.
Unfortunately, no. At these frequencies the capsules are effectively coincident, so you can't play phase games. If each capsule is down say 3dB the combined response will also be down 3dB. This is where Dr. Gerzon once again showed how far ahead he was; by choosing subcardioids, he not only minimized proximity effect and far-field bass rolloff, he got an additional 2.5dB of level (and hence S/N) out of the W channel relative to using cardioids AND got figure-eight channels with the bass response of a sub-cardioid!
Old 11th March 2015
  #106
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Michael- Thank you for starting this thread. I just bought a C700S from a fellow GSer and the information here has been very helpful.
Old 18th March 2015 | Show parent
  #107
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Roger,
What ever became of this? Did you ever try the setup? I have an MKH20 coming and am going to rig it up with a pair of MKH30 and see how it sounds.

Maybe set it up like the attached photo?


--Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➑️
I might try this with 2 x MKH 30 and a MKH 20.
The omni will mount parallel to the 8s ,hopefully without shadowing
At last ,a reason to buy a SD744/788......

My ancient STC 4033a uses an omni and a ribbon for wide card.
Attached Thumbnails
Josephson C700S - clips and comments-b_mic_big.jpg  
Old 19th March 2015
  #108
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Jim
I tried it and found it wanting
The 8s far better alone, better proximity and critical distance, essential in my performance work.
Im trying to find the comparison files
Roger
Old 19th March 2015 | Show parent
  #109
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
I'd be interested in how you positioned the 3 mics. I seem to remember a photo you posted where you had the mkh20 positioned to the side of your standard mkh30/30 setup in a Rycote Invision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 ➑️
Jim
I tried it and found it wanting
The 8s far better alone, better proximity and critical distance, essential in my performance work.
Im trying to find the comparison files
Roger
Old 19th March 2015
  #110
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Im unable to repost pixs........
However ,it was interesting but not convincing
A MKH80 and a MKH30 were a far more flexible array
Old 3rd August 2021 | Show parent
  #111
Gear Head
 
Gabriele's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User ➑️
A Soundfield microphone kit, consisting of the microphone and a signal processor, produces two distinct sets of audio signals called A-Format and B-Format.

The A-Format is the signals from four microphones on the faces of a tetrahedron.

The first set, the A-Format, is produced by the Soundfield microphone itself and consists of the four signals from the microphone capsules. These four signals are not intended to be used without further processing. The A-Format is normally transformed into the second set of audio signals, the B-Format. Depending on the microphone model, this transformation can be performed in either hardware or software.


The B-Format is the standard audio format produced by a soundfield kit. It consists of the following four signals:

W - a pressure signal corresponding to the output from an omnidirectional microphone
X - the front-to-back directional information, a forward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Y - the side-to-side directional information, a leftward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone
Z - the up-to-down directional information, an upward-pointing "figure-of-eight" microphone

These are the constant (W) and linear (X, Y, Z) terms in the multipole expansion of a function on the sphere – in effect, it approximates the wave field on a sphere around the microphone.

It is possible to recreate the three dimensional soundfield, however the soundfield microphone particularly shows its versatility in a stereo or mono application. For example, a forward-facing cardioid is produced by\sqrt2 W + X. By combining the signals in various proportions, it is possible to derive any number of first-order microphones, pointing in any direction, before and after recording. For instance, provided the W, X, Y and Z signals are recorded separately, it is possible to pinpoint the microphone to a certain response from the audience even after recording. Examples of software that perform these calculations are Visual Virtual Microphone, SoundField's Surround Zone and Ambisonic Studio's B2X decoders plug-ins.

In other words, the B-format recording can be decoded to model any number of microphones pointing in arbitrary directions: each microphone's pattern can be selected to be omnidirectional, cardioid, hypercardioid, figure-of-eight, or anything in between. This can be done live or in post-production (after the recording is made).

The playback configuration is equally flexible. Again in post-production, the B-format recording can be decoded to any number of speakers arranged in both the horizontal and vertical planes.

Note however that this information only allows the direction of sound at the microphone to be reproduced – microphone responses pointing in any direction can be synthesized, but it does not allow the reconstruction of what a microphone at a different point in space would record. To do that requires reconstructing the wave field in more detail (as in wave field synthesis).

The Josephson is not a B-format microphone according the definitions of Calrec, because Josephson's microphone does not include the height information Z, which is a crucial part of the Calrec Soundfield B-format.
No more words needed: this truly is all one needs to know about.
Old 7th August 2021 | Show parent
  #112
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surflounge's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriele ➑️
No more words needed: this truly is all one needs to know about.
Josephson C700S with a spaced vertical pair of 617sets
accomplishes enough formats. I mix to stereo on location, and save the iso tracks for 7.1 if needed. Recorded into Sound Devices Scorpio, nice transportable setup for remote work, gets the job done and can deliver files on site
Old 7th August 2021 | Show parent
  #113
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by surflounge ➑️
Josephson C700S with a spaced vertical pair of 617sets
accomplishes enough formats. I mix to stereo on location, and save the iso tracks for 7.1 if needed. Recorded into Sound Devices Scorpio, nice transportable setup for remote work, gets the job done and can deliver files on site
Wow. That is one little bag of gear I would be terrified of accidently leaving on the train! Very nice.
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